106. Dr. Judy Ho on Why We Self-Sabotage + How to Stop

Jul 9

listen to this episode:

This week's guest is Dr. Judy Ho—a licensed and triple board-certified Clinical and Forensic Neuropsychologist, a tenured Associate Professor at Pepperdine University, television and podcast host, and published author. (bio via drjudyho.com) We discuss why she started specializing in self-sabotage, what exactly self-sabotage is and why we do it, the 4 factors that predispose people to self-sabotage, red flags to be aware of, how to determine if your goals are realistic, values-based work, the first step to take in your self-sabotage journey, and why negative emotions necessary.

Dr. Judy Ho's Website: https://www.drjudyho.com/

Dr. Judy Ho's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drjudyho/

This week's DBT Skill is the Chain Analysis skill! Learn more HERE.

Mentioned In The Episode…

+ Stop Self-Sabotage by: Dr. Judy Ho

+ Values-Based Card Sort

+ The Life Quiz

SHOP GUEST RECOMMENDATIONS: https://amzn.to/3A69GOC

Episode Sponsors

🛋This week's episode is sponsored by Teen Counseling. Teen Counseling is an online therapy program with over 14,000 licensed therapists in their network offering support with depression, anxiety, relationships, trauma, and more via text, talk, and video counseling. Head to teencounseling.com/shepersisted to find a therapist today!

About She Persisted (formerly Nevertheless, She Persisted)

After a year and a half of intensive treatment for severe depression and anxiety, 18-year-old Sadie recounts her journey by interviewing family members, professionals, and fellow teens to offer self-improvement tips, DBT education, and personal experiences. She Persisted is the reminder that someone else has been there too and your inspiration to live your life worth living.

a note: this is an automated transcription so please ignore any accidental misspellings!

[00:00:00] Sadie: Welcome to she persisted. I'm your host. Sadie sat in a 19 year old from the bay area, studying psychology at the university of pencils. She processed. It is the teen mental health podcast made for teenagers by a team. In each episode, I'll bring you authentic, accessible, and relatable conversations about every aspect of mental wellness you can expect.

[00:00:20] Evidence-based Tina proved resources, coping skills, including lots of DBT insights and education. Each piece of content you consume, she persisted offers you a safe space to feel validated and understood in your struggle while encouraging you to take ownership of your journey and build your life worth living.

[00:00:37] So let's dive in.

[00:00:41] Hello. Hello and welcome to she persisted. Uh, this week's episode is a little bit late. I'm recording this on Saturday. My goal is always for episodes to go up on Tuesday, but better, late than never. We're trying over here. This has been, it has been a long week. Um, and I just love this conversation so much.

[00:00:57] I still wanted to put it up this week rather than wait all the way until next Tuesday. But our guest this week is Dr. Judy ho. She is a triple board certified and licensed clinical and forensic neuropsychologist, a media personality, motivational speaker clinical researcher, and published author.

[00:01:12] She is an expert in self sabotaging. We talk in this episode about how exactly she dialed into that specialty. But this episode has so much insight for anyone that's struggling with self-sabotage, which like she mentions everyone does to some degree, or if you're trying to support someone that you notice is self sabotaging.

[00:01:30] And what can be effective in that relationship. So I really think you're gonna get so much value from this episode as always. Thank you so much for listening to sheep persisted. If you haven't already, it means the world.

[00:01:41] If you leave a review on apple podcast or Spotify, wherever you're listening, I'm really on my TikTok game. So if you're not following on TikTok and at she persisted podcast or Instagram for Instagram reel at, at she resisted podcast, you should do that it's pretty great content, but anyways, this is an amazing episode. Let's dive in.

[00:02:01] Thank you so much for joining me today and she persisted. I'm so excited to have you on the show.

[00:02:06] Judy: Well, thank you so much for having me. I love the work that you're doing. I'm so glad we're able to do

[00:02:09] Sadie: this. Yeah. So I'd love to start by hearing about how you got into working and specializing in self sabotage, because you are a clinical and forensic psychologist, which doesn't seem like necessarily a first glance that it would be intertwined with.

[00:02:23] Self-sabotage I'd love to see how you started specializing in that area. .

[00:02:28] Judy: Yeah, it's a great question. I really felt that self sabotage was something that was so universal to people. Obviously, some people struggle with it more than others, but I really felt like it was something that I was seeing everywhere.

[00:02:38] Even in the most well meaning of people, even in the most successful people. And a lot of times people will use the term self sabotage, but then they'll just kind of move on from that they'll say, well, yeah, I self sabotage, but anyways, I guess I'm just gonna do my best and. Move forward from here,

[00:02:54] Sadie: but then there you even self sabotaging

[00:02:55] Judy: there exactly.

[00:02:57] And so I was thinking that, you know, there has to be more than that. We have to have a solution. We have to have an evidence based solution to this. And that's how I came up with the idea of this book and started researching it, working with patients on this program. And it's been really, really awesome just to see how many people's lives have been transformed by these technique.

[00:03:17] Sadie: Yeah. So to give listeners and me a little bit of a definition, what exactly is self sabotage? Like you said, it can show up differently in everyone, but what patterns, thoughts, behaviors, interactions, create this idea of self sabotage.

[00:03:32] Judy: So self sabotage is quite simply put in a very, very basic way.

[00:03:38] Getting in our own way, despite our best intentions, but it shows up for different reasons. And so my theory is that as human beings, we really only have two primary drives it's to attain rewards and to avoid threat. And essentially that's how we learn to survive and thrive as a species and as individuals, but sometimes something will cause us to flip the switch so that we tend to avoid threat more.

[00:04:01] Then we are balancing those two initiatives. Obtaining rewards and avoiding threat. We start to do something where essentially that threat switch gets turned on and we're constantly thinking about avoiding threat. And then that makes us not make progress anymore on our goals makes us scared as soon as we're about to reach our goals and explains all of those stop starts, that can happen on the way to any kind of a goal attainment, whether it's in relationships or in your career or in your health behavior.

[00:04:29] Sadie: Are there certain populations or patterns that you see with people that are doing a lot of self sabotaging, whether that's like a certain diagnosis, a certain thought pattern, they engage in maybe a relationship that they're involved in, where they're just more prone and at risk of using self sabotaging behavior.

[00:04:47] Well,

[00:04:47] Judy: I find that there are essentially four different factors that can predispose somebody to self-sabotage. And for some people it's just one of these factors for some others, it's like a combination of these four or maybe all four, but I made an acronym to describe these self-sabotage factors and L stands for.

[00:05:05] Low or shaky self-esteem so essentially they all spell out life. And so L stands for lower shaky self-esteem that means that somebody who might have a lower self-esteem in an area in of their life, because self-esteem can have a lot of different components. It's not just one. Big idea of self-esteem for most people, they might have good self-esteem with relationships, but not as good self-esteem with career, for example.

[00:05:29] And so you might find that in the area where they have a lower self-esteem, they have a harder time connecting that idea to achieving in that area. So they might find that they falter over and over again in goals relating to wellness. For example, if they have a lower self-esteem in that area compared to other areas of their.

[00:05:45] I stands for internalized belief. So these are things that we learned from childhood, from the most important adults that were with us in our lives around that time for most people it's parents, but it can also include teachers, coaches, and any other important adults. You learn lessons from them, you learn how they deal with conflict in the world, how they problem solve.

[00:06:03] You also listen to what they're telling you. So if you, for example, had a parent who was overly. Anxious, despite their best intentions. They're just trying to protect you. It may cause you to start to become a little overly anxious as you grow older. And then whenever there is a challenge ahead, it makes you feel a little bit insecure.

[00:06:20] Like I'm not sure if I can do this. Some of those parenting messages come back as an adult in your own voice F stands for fear of change or fear of the unknown. Now all human. Don't love change because we kind of need to know what's going on in our environment to be able to control what's happening and make sure that we have the most success.

[00:06:41] We wanna be able to feel like we're masters of our own universes. To an extent, obviously change is inevitable, but some personality types. We'll deal with that a little better, and others will deal with it a little bit worse. And so if you are somebody who might have a predisposition to not really like change very much, or the unknown, you might have a more difficult time and that could be your driver for self sabotage.

[00:07:02] And then finally E stands for essentially excessive need for control. So when somebody has an excessive need for control, this is all of the people who I lovingly call the type a individuals. These are our perfectionists. They're the go-geters obviously that comes with some great benefits.

[00:07:21] But then for some of these individuals, also, if they can't see everything, that's ahead of them, all the steps that they're gonna have to take, if they can't control everything along the way. And obviously for most things in life, you can't, then they might stall in their way towards achieving a goal. And so a lot of people will say, That they're a combination of these life factors, or some people might just say, you know what?

[00:07:43] One of these really sticks out to me. And every time I self sabotage, I can see myself being driven by this particular factor.

[00:07:51] Sadie: What exactly does self sabotage look like? Is it a thought that occurs? Are there different behaviors that you can have it keep an eye out for, or that you could recognize in someone else?

[00:08:02] What do you tell your patients and individuals in your community to look for as like red flags, I guess you could say.

[00:08:09] Judy: Yeah, I think it's sort of like setting the same goal over and over again and never to making traction. So if you find yourself writing the same goal over and over again for your new year revolution, but every year is the same goal.

[00:08:19] And every year around February or March, you start giving up on it, or you think that it's not gonna be possible. That would be one way of. Seeing self sabotage in terms of a goal setting perspective, people sometimes also see self sabotage in their relationships. So they may, for example have a relationship that's going well.

[00:08:36] And all of a sudden they'll stop calling that other person, pick a fight break up with them for a very small reason. And then later on they'll complain that they can't find a good relationship. Sometimes I'll find individuals who right before they get to a certain goal, they essentially take away some of their own progress.

[00:08:51] So maybe they're trying to eat healthier. They're trying to lose weight because their doctor said that medically, that would be advisable because they might be obese. And then they start to lose the weight. They're five pounds away from their goal weight. And then all of a sudden they start eating everything.

[00:09:05] Again, they start binging on foods. They start having that be out of balance again, and they were so close to their goal. That's what happened towards the end, when you're almost there. I can also see that self sabotage can happen for individuals who are driven in their work, but then they're afraid to take that next step, that next leap I am afraid to like actually apply for their promotion or transfer to another company.

[00:09:26] Even though this next company would have much more opportunities for me to grow. But they just stop themselves for whatever reason and they won't move ahead. And in general, Essentially making the same goal or statement over and over, but never being able to actually achieve it and hold onto it. I think that it can happen in all these different areas of life in those are the examples that I just gave.

[00:09:47] Sadie: How do you differentiate between a goal that's unrealistic or external forces that are preventing you from reaching a goal versus self sabotage being at.

[00:09:58] Judy: I always ask people to do an exercise where they check their goal setting. So one of the things that I ask them to do is rate their goal on a scale of one to 10, 10 being, this is definitely doable, especially if I put in my full effort.

[00:10:11] And one is, even if I put in my full effort, probably won't meet, reach it because this is sort of like just a dream goal. Like it's not gonna happen realistically in my life. And I always ask people to make sure that they pick a goal that they feel at least a level of six or a seven on. So if I put in my full effort, I'm pretty confident that I'm gonna be able to get there that I think is really important is having a realistic goal setting and.

[00:10:35] Some of it also is related to how much your goals are tethered to your values. And so sometimes people just create a goal because it sounds like a good goal. Maybe somebody else is doing it. Maybe it's a bucket list item, but it's not connected to the things that are truly important to them in their life.

[00:10:48] It's not truly connected to what they really value. in terms of who they wanna be and how they wanna be seen by other people, the ideals that are important to them. If your goal is not tied to one of your important ideals, you're gonna run outta steam really fast, especially when things get difficult, because you are gonna wonder to yourself why, why even participate and why even.

[00:11:11] Pursue this goal. I'm not even sure why I want it other than the fact that it sounds good, or my friends also doing it. So you really wanna make sure that the goal is tethered to something realistic and you wanna make sure that the goal is also something that adheres and nurtures one of your values.

[00:11:27] And if you find that that's the case, And you still end up not being able to get there. Then you're looking at more of a self sabotage situation, but if one of those elements is missing, then it's not particularly self sabotage. It's more just that you have to adjust your goal attainment and how you set your goals in the first place.

[00:11:49] Sadie: Gotcha.

[00:11:50] This week's episode is brought to you by teen counseling. You guys know that when I have a therapist or a psychologist on the podcast, I have to bring up teen counseling so that you guys know how to utilize therapy as a resource, if you are interested. So teen counseling is better helps branch specifically for teenagers.

[00:12:07] They are an online therapy program with over 14,000 licensed therapists in their network. And they offer support on things like depression, anxiety, relationships, trauma, and so much more. Teen counseling offers, talk, text and video counseling all from your home. So depending on what level of support you're looking for, you are able to get your needs met.

[00:12:25] What you are going to do is go to teen counseling.com/she persisted. You are going to fill out a quick survey about what you're hoping to work on in therapy. So maybe that is school stress working through conflict with your parents, getting better about your routine and habits. Maybe it's self sabotaging, whatever it is.

[00:12:42] You're gonna fill it out in the survey so they can match with a therapist that specializes in that area. And then if you are under 18, you will put in the information for a parent or guardian. None of your information is disclosed, but you have to get consent for treatment and provide payments. So your parent gets a, or guardian gets a super discrete email.

[00:12:59] I tried it myself. All it says is Sadie or whatever your name is, is hoping to work with a counselor from teen counseling. Please learn more here, provide consent to treatment, et cetera. Again, none of your information is disclosed from there. You are matched with a therapist that meets your needs, and if you don't love your match, you can very easily switch therapists and therapists shop listen to the episode with the shrink chicks hosts, for more about that and why it's so important and helpful in your therapy journey.

[00:13:25] But you can therapist shop find someone that is perfect for what you're hoping to work on. And. Then you're in therapy. That's all it is. so if you'd like to try out teen counseling, you can go to teen counseling.com/she persisted again. That is teen counseling.com/she persisted to get started with therapy today. So if listeners have identified one of the red flags, one of the previous positions, they're like, I think I'm self sabotaging in this area of life. Walk me through your protocol for addressing that and working through that and navigating that self sabotage. So what

[00:14:00] Judy: was a specific example for how to walk through something?

[00:14:04] Sadie: Let's say studying for a test, you have this huge final coming up and your professor tells you at the beginning of the semester, this final's gonna be worth 50% of your grade. I'm gonna go through all the content in class. You put on your calendar.

[00:14:18] Okay. Gonna start reviewing notes, gonna start studying and. As you get closer and closer and closer to the date, you're like, I'm just gonna do badly. Like I'm not gonna study for it. It's not even worth it. Those self sabotaging thoughts are creeping in. You end up not studying. Maybe you fail the test. And so the next semester you're gonna try and do this differently.

[00:14:38] How would you advise that the person work through that self sabotage and kind of counteract that almost instinct of what they've done before?

[00:14:47] Judy: absolutely. So I think that it's been really important for people to understand that sometimes self sabotage shows up in the form of procrastination, but it's not necessarily what you think.

[00:14:58] So people who procrastinate, they're not just trying to avoid doing the work all the time. They're not necessarily. Not invested in whatever that project or idea or task is. Sometimes people are procrastinating because of perfectionism. Sometimes people are procrastinating because of that excessive need for control.

[00:15:17] If they can't guarantee that they're gonna be perfect in the execution, then they don't even wanna start at all. Or they end up molding a lot of ideas over in their head, but then they never end up starting, of course, by the end, when you run out of time, then it's truly self sabotage because you just don't have enough time to finish your project.

[00:15:32] Yeah. And so in this example about studying, it's kind of like that, you know, you know how important this is that professor has really made clear that it's really important. and maybe in your best intentions in your mind, you're planning ahead and you're thinking I'm definitely gonna start early, but then the more that you get closer to the exam, the more anxious you become.

[00:15:51] And it actually ends up not starting on setting at all. You end up distracting yourself, doing other things, other projects, cleaning your room, whatever mm-hmm . And then of course it's like the night before, and now you really feel like you can't do it. Then those beliefs become real. Those thoughts then become real when you're thinking, oh my gosh, I'm not gonna be able to get into grade.

[00:16:06] Well, yes, because now you only have eight hours to study for the test and you actually had. Weeks the whole semester.

[00:16:11] Sadie: Yeah.

[00:16:12] Judy: Yeah. Yeah. So I think that that can oftentimes happen and people self sabotage that way. And then they beat themselves up, but really their intentions were good in the beginning, but it's just because they knew how important it was.

[00:16:23] It like got them in a stuck place in their mind and they ended up not starting at all. So it's really important. In this case to really work with your thoughts, I think that people don't realize that most things start with your thoughts and. Thoughts really predict a lot of things. Thoughts predict how you feel about something, thoughts, predict how you act.

[00:16:39] And then those things double back up and produce new thoughts that then cause a cascade of other emotional and behavioral events. And so it's really important to start paying attention to your thoughts on what they're telling you, and then to try to work with them so that they don't produce self sabotaging behavior.

[00:16:56] So one of the things that I like to have people do is if they have a negative thought about something to really examine it and to actually decide if it's truly reflective. In what's happening in the world, or if it's just really a figment of their mind and maybe a way of catastrophizing something or predicting something negative that hasn't yet happened.

[00:17:13] So when people have a negative thought, like I'm going to fail this test, I want them to give me the evidence for this thought being true and evidence against the thought being true. And so evidence for the thought being true has to be things that are not just other thoughts, but things that other people could observe as well.

[00:17:29] Like, well, I believe I'm gonna fail this test because. I didn't do very well on the last test, either in the same class. Okay. So that would be objective. That maybe you have, you know, some concern or some worry in this particular area, but then what's the evidence again? Well, the evidence against is I didn't do really well, but I still got a B, and that wasn't a fail.

[00:17:54] And maybe if I study harder this time, I could actually get. A higher grade. Right. And so it's like really challenging yourself to question your thought process and not to take everything at face value. I also think that it's important to actually try to do a type of visualization where you can essentially see some of the pitfalls in the first place and make a plan for them.

[00:18:13] So a lot of times we talk about positive visualization and that's great. You know, you can imagine yourself getting a great grade on this test, but then. You know, you also need to imagine the barriers that could come up. So it's great to visualize how it's gonna feel when you finally ACE the test, but you also need to visualize what kind of things are gonna get in the way.

[00:18:30] For example, you're sitting down to study and you're like, oh, my room needs cleaning. And then you end up starting to clean your room instead of actually studying, or you sit down to study and your thought is, oh man, this is so much stuff. I just can't even do it. So overwhelming. And then you just close your book and up doing nothing.

[00:18:46] So if you know what your barriers are, then you can design interventions to deal with. Ahead of time so that when it actually comes up, when the barrier comes up, you already have a plan in advance. And I call these if then statements. And so if I sit down at my desk and I'm too overwhelmed to open my book, I'm gonna force myself to read one chapter.

[00:19:04] Like those are the kinds of statements that you need to make to address any potential barriers that can come up. And if you're able to do that ahead of time, then when the barrier comes up and you're already feeling stressed, you don't have to rack your brain at that point to think about the best solution.

[00:19:18] You already have some that you practice and set up ahead of time. And so it's really important to do this kind of visualization where you think about both the positives of achieving whatever goal that you're imagining, but also thinking about the potential barriers that could come up and then making if then statements to address them ahead of.

[00:19:34] Sadie: Do you recommend people approach, relationship, self sabotaging in a similar way with addressing the thoughts, addressing the, if thens creating a plan, do you use the same structure or is it different in these different areas that people commonly self sabotaging? .

[00:19:50] Judy: Yeah. I think that these techniques will work in any area of your life.

[00:19:54] I think with relationships, especially people will find that they have some difficulty in this area, especially because you really can't control what somebody else feels about you or what they're gonna do on a given day. So you really have to start to manage this in a better way and to try to find some way to cope with sometimes not knowing.

[00:20:10] What the other person might be feeling and still being able to make good decisions and to nurture the relationship. If you know, that is something that is important for you to continue. And this is where I really ask people to especially focus on work that is all about identifying their values. When things are really important to us, we really want to work ahead and make sure that we stay the course, even if it gets difficult, because we know how important it's to us internally.

[00:20:37] And so if a relationship can get difficult, you know, it's uncomfortable. You're thinking, oh my gosh, there's a part of me. That's fearing that this person might leave me and. I have to stay with it though, because this relationship is important to me. And I think it's gonna be worth the while and, you know, worth all of my efforts.

[00:20:53] I think that we sometimes have to really think about the values that are truly important to us. So on my website, I have a values based card sort that can show you what your top values are. And this is like a great exercise to do. because it's very physical. You like cut out the cars and you sort them and people find that it can be really helpful to identify what their top values are.

[00:21:14] And then when they have challenges in aspects of their life, including relationships, it helps you to stay the course and to stick with it, even if it's uncomfortable. because you know, that it's something that is truly important to you as opposed to, oh, it's just a relationship. I don't even really care about this relationship.

[00:21:33] I'm just doing it because most of my friends have relationships right now. You know, you really wanna know that it's coming from a deeper place. And so I do give the same advice because thoughts always proceed your emotions and your actions, but especially with relationships where there's a lot of unknowns.

[00:21:48] I also highly. Really recommend people try to check out values based work and really focus in on their top values. When the going gets tough.

[00:21:58] Sadie: If there is one action step that people can take to start working on their self sabotage that they can implement today, tomorrow, this week, what would it be?

[00:22:08] Judy: well, first take the life quiz.

[00:22:09] I have a free version of it on my website. So definitely check it out at Dr. Judy ho.com. Take the life quiz and find out which of the four life factors is impacting you the most in your self sabotage. But I would say that the single step after that is to really start paying attention to your thoughts.

[00:22:25] And there's a really easy way to do this for a lot of us. We end up. Not thinking about our thoughts a lot, because most people have 50,000 or more spot fragments in a day. There's no way that we're consciously paying attention to all of them. But you always notice when you have a negative emotion. or if you do something that you wish you didn't do, or a man, I don't know why I did that.

[00:22:50] Now. I'm gonna have to go apologize to someone, you know, when you do something and you wish you hadn't done it. So the next time that you notice a negative feeling or you notice an action that you immediately regret and wish you didn't do ask yourself this one. Very simple question. What was I thinking just before.

[00:23:09] If you're able to do this, you're going to be able to catch your thoughts in real time. And you're gonna be able to see the kind of thoughts that led you down this path, where you then started to feel bad and have negative emotions, or you started to do things that you wish you didn't do. As I mentioned, there's a predictable sequence.

[00:23:26] So it's thoughts leads to feelings and behavior. So. If you can stop the next time you notice a negative feeling or a negative action that you wish you didn't do. And just ask yourself this question. What was I thinking just before this, you're gonna start to notice your thoughts and also notice that there's patterns.

[00:23:42] So a lot of people will find, oh, wow. I really am a catastrophizer. I'm always thinking that the worst thing is gonna happen. And that's what leads me to feel anxious or sad, or that's what leads me then down this path of behaviors that I wish I didn't do. Some people might say, oh man, all of my thoughts are so.

[00:23:58] Mean, they're always about what I didn't do and how I'm falling short and how I should do more. Right. And then if you notice these types of thoughts, then you know how to catch them more and how to work with them. You know, how do we work with these self deprecating thoughts or the thoughts that are highly self critical?

[00:24:14] So for most people they're gonna find that there are certain themes and their thoughts that come up over and over. And by doing this very simple exercise, you're gonna be able to start to understand your own thought processes a lot more. And then you're gonna feel like you're more in control. Okay. I didn't just have this negative emotion just because I had this negative emotion because I had this thought that came up right before then.

[00:24:33] So now I know that cause and effect, and I can really work on finding the right coping skill for it.

[00:24:39] Sadie: I love that. I remember doing that exact process when I was in residential treatment for D B T and they called a chain analysis and I would just do them over and over and over again. And they work for different things.

[00:24:49] I would do them for body image. I would do them for intrusive OCD, thoughts. I would do them for conflict. I would do them for negative self beliefs, anxiety rumination. You could identify what was that first thought. And then how did I get to this negative belief so quickly? And once you unpack that you don't necessarily feel like you can control your anxiety, but you understand it so that you can cope with it.

[00:25:12] And it's just such an amazing tool and piece of insight to have and coping with your anxiety and with self sabotage and all of these things, because it feels less out of your control, less overwhelming, less like your thoughts are just racing without you. You can really unpack them and understand where, okay, where did I go wrong?

[00:25:29] Where can I. Like change this thought pattern next time and avoid getting to this negative belief, avoid getting to this negative emotional outcome. Avoid engaging in this behavior, et C. .

[00:25:40] Judy: Yeah, that's such a great example. And I'm so glad that you found benefit in those techniques when you went through treatment.

[00:25:46] I think that a lot of people can't articulate what it is that helps them with that particular technique. And you just did it beautifully, but I think it is that sense of control that reduces the overwhelm. You're overwhelmed because you feel outta control and you don't feel like you can get back to that control.

[00:26:01] So if you have this very methodical approach about how to, how to deal with it, when it comes up, then you're not gonna be scared. The next time you have a negative emotion. I think that a lot of people now, especially in our culture, there's a fear of feeling negative feelings like positive psychology is amazing, but I feel like sometimes it goes off the rails and people think, oh, I'm supposed to just be happy all the time.

[00:26:20] Yeah. But that's just impossible and ridiculous and negative emotions serve a purpose. And so mm-hmm but I think what. Happened is it's produced a lot of people who think I have to be happier all the time or something is wrong with me. So not being afraid of your negative emotions is huge. And it's like, okay, as long as I know what to do about it and I can control it.

[00:26:37] It's it's okay. And of course the paradoxical thing is the more okay. You are. With it. And the more you accept it, the less they hang around. So you don't end up having that negative emotion for as long, but the more you push it away and tell yourself you're not supposed to have it. It just keeps lingering and lingering lingering for days on end.

[00:26:55] And then you really feel bad

[00:26:56] Sadie: about yourself. And once you lean into those negative emotions to understand them, you can identify exactly what your red flags are and nip it in the butt immediately. Like what's that initial thought that then will go down this chain and lead to this emotion.

[00:27:09] Okay. If I'm having this thought, I will rewire it immediately and prevent all of these overwhelming things from happening. So's such a simple. Tool it takes practice for sure. Mm-hmm it definitely takes times of going through that chain analysis going through and seeing, okay, what happens when I go down this route of thoughts and rumination and thoughts spiraling versus this one, but with practice, with consistency and with being willing to explore those emotions, it can be so, so, so effective.

[00:27:33] Judy: right. And so empowering when you apply the techniques and they work. Yes. And you feel so good about yourself. Like, yes, I did it. Yeah. You know, it's like a real achievement when you're able to practice something and see it work. But I do think that sometimes that practice is what's missing for people like this technique sounds good, but you have to actually work.

[00:27:50] Strategies. Yeah. Or else are

[00:27:52] Sadie: not gonna work for you. You would understand what the commonalities are. If you do this one time and there's, for some reason, like you have one red flag of a thought one time, but that's not what the typical sequence of events is. You won't be able to figure out where you're consistently going wrong with your coping mechanisms or what thoughts are consistently showing up or what coping skills work because you haven't practiced them and, and experimented.

[00:28:13] So it's really the consistency. It's really pulling out those tools. Every time you notice those emotions and thoughts arising. mm-hmm . Are there any misconception misconceptions about self sabotaging that you see within your community, within your practice that you wish people were more aware of that are inaccurate?

[00:28:32] Judy: Yeah. That basically just something that happens to you. I think a lot of people think, oh, well it just happens. Yeah, but there's actually a logical reason for why it's happening and there's a way to stop it from happening. So there's a lot we can do about it proactively instead of just being reactive in the moment and then throwing up your hands and saying, oh, well I guess it happens self Sabo.

[00:28:49] The best of us. Yeah. Yeah. Like it does happen in the best of us, but there's still a lot we can do about it. Yes. And then I think another misconception is that self sabotage only happens to people who have low self-esteem or, you know, just don't care about goal setting or lazy. Like none of those things are true.

[00:29:05] Self Saboto happens. The most successful people. Yeah. And I've spoken to really successful people who admitted like, yep. It's still a problem for me. Yeah. And it's something that I have to work on. And so I think that if we know that it's universal to everyone, no matter where you are in life, then it makes it easier to talk about.

[00:29:21] And there's less shame around it.

[00:29:23] Sadie: Absolutely. And there's when so many people are navigating it. There's so many more skills and people's advice that you can get and different things. You can try to combat it because it's gonna be different for everyone. But if everyone's experiencing it, there's likely a handful of people out there that have had the same type of thought spirals, whether it's like rumination or you'd named a couple of other ones, but there's these different types of patterns that you go down, these different types of self sabotage.

[00:29:47] Finding people that are using similar coping skills, using similar practices that work for them is such a powerful resource.

[00:29:54] Judy: I think it's so helpful when you can find other people who are willing to just get into it with you, because it's so easy to feel isolated. Like you're the only person struggling with a particular issue.

[00:30:03] And you just realize that it's a human commonality that we have yeah. To struggle with our thoughts, to have struggles with our negative feelings to do self-sabotaging actions and then essentially regret it afterwards. Yes. That's. So common, but if you start to isolate, you really start to believe this narrative that it's just you.

[00:30:20] And then that really causes you to suffer more, as opposed to saying, oh, it's great. We can have this open dialogue about how both of us have this struggle and then we can help each other work on it. We can be each other's cheerleaders and each other's accountability buddies. And I can teach you a coping strategy that work for me and see if it might work for you this time.

[00:30:36] I think that that's so valuable. So I'm really glad that you pointed that

[00:30:39] Sadie: out. Do you ever find that people will self sabotage together? Like people have like SIM like they'll procrastinate together or they'll go into these like rumination thought spirals. Like what if this happens? And then this happens, like just ruminating on those worst case scenarios.

[00:30:53] Is that something that's very common?

[00:30:55] Judy: I think it happens because sometimes misery does love company and it almost temporarily feels good to do it together. Mm-hmm like doing something like procrastinating together, like, oh, we're both just gonna take a ditch day instead of working on our projects. Yeah.

[00:31:08] Like feels awesome in the moment. Then when you come back, you're all stressed out. Similarly, sometimes it can feel good to commiserate when you're miserable. Like somebody else also saying I'm miserable too. And then you guys are both in your negative thoughts, spirals, and talking about how awful your lives are and how nothing's gonna change.

[00:31:23] But eventually that's going to drain the life energy out of you. And so I think that while it's okay sometimes to. You know, take a, take a break. Maybe you do need to complain. Maybe you do need to run away from your reality for just a brief moment. But if you make that essentially a go to coping strategy, rather than just something that you're using sparingly, then that's when it becomes a problem.

[00:31:42] So this is sort of the idea that, you know, same idea of, oh, it's really fun to binge. Two or three episodes of a show, but then once you get to the eighth episode, you feel really gross about yourself. Yeah. It's like that there's a moderation to it, you know? Yeah. It's like, it's okay to like sometimes wanna escape.

[00:31:56] I think we all have that feeling and it's okay to use those types of techniques in moderation. But once you realize that you're distracting yourself a little too much, or you're actually just suppressing your thoughts and running away from all your responsibilities all the time, that's when. In the cycle of self-sabotage that you really need to stop.

[00:32:12] And

[00:32:12] Sadie: the relationship will probably get really irritating really quickly. Cuz you're gonna be like this. Person's always complaining, but like, yes, you are also complaining, but you're like, I just can't be around this 24 7 because it's exhausting. Yes.

[00:32:24] Judy: It really like sucks the life energy out of you. Yeah.

[00:32:26] And we sometimes talk about people, sometimes being emotional vampires, where all they do is take from you and complain and expect you to save them. And. In the beginning, it might feel good. Like, wow, I helped somebody today, but after a while it gets really old. If it's a pattern mm-hmm , it really has to be a give and take.

[00:32:42] And I think that oftentimes even if it does feel good to complain, it might be good to kind of set a little timer for yourself. Like, okay, I'm gonna complain for like 10 minutes and then I'm gonna move on. Like, you know, like just mm-hmm . Take a deep breath and like do something different.

[00:32:57] Sadie: Absolutely.

[00:32:58] Where can listeners get your book and continue to follow your content? You're so active on social media. Where can they follow along? You mentioned your website, but if you could say that one more time, that would be amazing.

[00:33:07] Judy: Of course. So my website's Dr. Judy ho.com. That's D R J U D Y H o.com. You can follow me on Instagram at Dr.

[00:33:15] Judy ho and you can get my book, wherever books are sold. Most people get it on Amazon, but it's just so easy. And so you can grab it on Amazon. I definitely welcome people to. Comment asking questions. I am on, I am on Instagram, so I am happy to entertain anybody's questions about how to use the book better, or if you wanna share any of your stories and Sadie, thank you for all the awesome work that you're doing.

[00:33:38] You're so inspirational as a young woman. It's so great how much you've already accomplished. And I love the opportunity to be on your show today.

[00:33:45] Sadie: Thank you so much. And I know this episode is gonna be so helpful for people. There's so many actionable steps. They can take so many tips they can implement.

[00:33:52] So I'm so glad we got to do this. me too. Awesome. Thank you.

[00:33:57] This week's D B T scale is the chain analysis scale, which was mentioned in this week's episode. So if you're unfamiliar with this scale, what you are doing is you are doing an analysis of what led you to a problematic behavior, interaction, thought pattern, all kind of encompassed in this term, problematic behavior.

[00:34:14] So.

[00:34:14] What you're gonna do is first get really clear on what the major problem behavior is that you are analyzing. You are then going to identify the prompting event in the environment that led you onto the chain that led you to that problematic behavior. You're gonna think about and get curious about what things and both yourself and your environment made you vulnerable.

[00:34:35] So did you sleep well the night before? Were you well fed? Were you feeling insecure? Were you feeling shameful? What emotions were you already experiencing? Where you going into an interaction where you just haven't had an argument the day before? Think about all of those things that put you at greater risk for engaging in this problematic behavior.

[00:34:53] And then you are gonna write down the links in your chain. So you're gonna end up with a list that starts with the vulnerability, then the prompting event, all of the different links. So maybe that is, um, a facial expression of. Negative thought that you had a comment she made then the problematic behavior itself.

[00:35:11] And then following that the consequences. So on the D B T worksheet, they give you 14 spots. You don't have to use all of them, but you're gonna list actual specific behaviors. And then you're gonna list the new, more skillful behaviors you can use to replace the ineffective ones. So if you were analyzing a situation where you looked in the mirror, you had a negative thought pattern about your body image or what you saw in the mirror.

[00:35:35] And then you kind of started beating yourself up when you had that initial thought. Maybe the more effective skill is to either leave the bathroom and say, I'm just gonna distract for now. This is not effective. Or maybe you rewire the thought and you do an affirmation instead. So list how you could have been more effecti.

[00:35:51] and the possible types of links that you can include in that list are actions, bodily sensations, cognitions events, and feelings. After that you are going to list exactly what the major consequences in the environment were both immediate and delayed and the major consequences in yourself. So in the environment, maybe if you, I don't know, snuck out, you got grounded versus in yourself, maybe you felt like ashamed or guilty for lying to your parents.

[00:36:17] And that is the chain analysis scale. I'm going to put a PDF of this entire scale and all of the details in these show notes for today, because it is quite a long scale with a lot of instructions, but that's a quick recap. It's one of my favorite skills at the beginning. I definitely recommend writing it out.

[00:36:33] If you can do it with a therapist, that's super helpful, but as you get good at it, And as you use it in smaller situations, I will all the time just use different parts of the chain analysis scale. And be like, why was I so vulnerable today? Or why were my emotions more intense? Or how could I have been more effective in this interaction and kind of looking back at what got me to the point that I meant.

[00:36:54] So that's the chain analysis skill. One of my favorites highly recommend more in the show notes. So that is the DBT skill for the week. I hope you enjoyed, um, And yeah. Thanks for listening to the episode.

[00:37:06] Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of she persisted. If you enjoyed, make sure to share with a friend or family member, it really helps out the podcast. And if you haven't already leave a review on apple podcasts or Spotify, you can also make sure to follow along at actually persisted podcast on both Instagram and Tik TOK, and check out all the bonus resources, content and information on my website.

[00:37:27] She persisted podcast.com. Thanks for supporting. Keep persisting and I'll see you next week.

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