199. Growing Pains: Advice for Teens & Parents on Navigating Teenage Years feat. Ellen Galinsky

Sep 6

listen to this episode:

Today's guest is Ellen Galinsky— president of the Families and Work Institute and author of several popular books researching adolescents and teenagers, including the bestselling parenting guide, Mind in the Making, and her recently published work, The Breakthrough Years. Over her career, her research has focused on work-life, children’s development, youth voice, child-care, parent-professional relationships, and parental development.

In this episode, we discuss:

+ Common emotional experiences teenagers face today

+ The unique pressure that teenagers are under & how adults can play a role in this

+ Popular misconceptions & stereotypes that society has about teenagers

+ Ways that Gen Z can thrive amidst the mental health crisis

+ The importance of finding a sense of purpose as a teenager

+ How parents & peers can best support a teen who is struggling

+ Parenting advice for building your teen's independence without micromanaging

+ Navigating screen time & social media as the parent of a teenager

+ Advice on how teens & parents can communicate about mental health

+ What she wishes all teenagers knew

+ so much more!

Ellen's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ellenmgalinsky/

Mentioned In The Episode…

+ Mind in the Making

+ The Breakthrough Years

+ LA Times Article

+ CHOP Research Institute

+ Kids Online Health and Safety

+ Ellen's Website

SHOP GUEST RECOMMENDATIONS: https://amzn.to/3A69GOC

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About She Persisted (formerly Nevertheless, She Persisted)

After a year and a half of intensive treatment for severe depression and anxiety, 18-year-old Sadie recounts her journey by interviewing family members, professionals, and fellow teens to offer self-improvement tips, DBT education, and personal experiences. She Persisted is the reminder that someone else has been there too and your inspiration to live your life worth living.

a note: this is an automated transcription so please ignore any accidental misspellings!

Welcome to She Persisted. I'm your host, Sadie Sutton, a 19 year old from the Bay Area studying psychology at the University of Penn. She Persisted is the Teen Mental Health Podcast made for teenagers by a teen. In each episode, I'll bring you authentic, accessible, and relatable conversations about every aspect of mental wellness.

You can expect evidence-based, teen approved resources, coping skills, including lots of D B T insights and education in. Each piece of content you consume, she persisted, Offers you a safe space to feel validated and understood in your struggle, while encouraging you to take ownership of your journey and build your life worth living.

So let's dive in this week on She persisted.

And I think we pressure, , in the wrong way. , we pressure kids to know what they want to do. , I talked to so many, people when I was interviewing for the book you know, and they'd say, Hey, I'm just in middle school. How should I know what I want to do but everybody asks me, what do you want to do when you grow up?

And I think. The better question is, , what kind of person do you want to be? I want to explore, I want to be curious, I want to be around animals because I love animals, whatever it is.

Those are questions we can answer.

Hello, hello, you guys, and welcome to another episode of She Persisted. I am so incredibly excited for this episode. We have a dream guest on the podcast today. We have Ellen Galinsky.

She is the president of the Families and Work Institute. She's the author of several popular books. researching adolescents and teenagers, including the best selling parenting guide, Mind in the Making, and her recent book, The Breakthrough Years, which we dive into, is nine years of research On the teenage and young adult years. So to give you guys kind of a what to expect before we dive in, we talk about the emotional experiences that teens navigate, especially today. We talk about all the pressure that teens navigate and how adults are playing into this as well. We talk about misconceptions and stereotypes that we have in society about adolescents.

We talk about ways that Gen Z can thrive despite there being a mental health crisis happening. We talk about finding purpose as a teenager and why that is so, so, so important. We talk about how parents and peers can help a teen who is actively struggling.

We, of course, touch on some parenting advice to build independence without micromanaging, navigating screen time and social media. We talk about how parents and teens can both help each other. Have these conversations about mental health, because I know that is something that I wish I would have known when I was a teen.

And lastly, Ellen's advice for all teens currently navigating this really unique and interesting and special period of life. So, I'm really excited for you guys to listen to this conversation. I really think you're going to get a lot out of it. It was just such a phenomenal conversation. And I'm excited for you guys to also hopefully tune in next week for episode 200, which is so wild and just an exciting milestone.

So, with that, let's dive in. You guys know the drill, share with a family member or friend, leave a review, send me all your thoughts after you listen. I can't wait to hear what you think. And let's just dive into this incredible convo.

Well, thank you so much for joining me today on She Persisted. I am absolutely so excited for this conversation. I know it's going to help so many parents and teens alike.

I'm excited to be with you, and I'm so impressed with what you're doing. Thank you. As you probably know from at least a little bit you know about me, , having young people help,

connect with young people is what my work has all been about, even though I'm not, you know, that age anymore.

And so I just, when you reached out to me, I was so excited about what you're doing.

I was so excited to reach out and I, I just cannot wait to pick your brain about so many aspects of teen mental health because it is such a hot topic and you have so many interesting opinions on adolescents and the teen mental health crisis.

And what's really unique about your perspective is that it's so based in research and a lot of the opinions we're hearing on these things either are not from a research perspective or it's newer information. So, To get things started, I would love to hear a little bit about the adolescent experience, and especially how that has changed as we've introduced social media and now that we're in like this new period of teenage years, because I feel like that's one of the most common things people say to me on the podcast, is I couldn't imagine growing up as a teen in this day and age.

And so I'd love to hear from your perspective, is the internal experience the same? Has it kind of been pretty consistent for the past 50, 100 years? Or are things really evolving? , and how you kind of define that within your research and your work?

Well, adults will always say what they've said to you, which is, Oh, in the old days, this and that and the other, you so, , Yeah, things are both the same and always changing and the always changing feels really different to people who didn't grow up that way, but in a sense Adolescent development is adolescent development.

So it's the same It's just the context is different and then the context could be very different if you were you know, in Montana, in the Bay Area, in the East Coast, or living in another country. So, it, it just really depends on where you live and what those experiences are.

I would love to hear from your perspective There's this kind of general understanding that being a teen is really challenging.

You hear that from adults, and I think as you're going through it, you're like, this is really overwhelming. This is challenging to navigate. I've never experienced this before, and I'm curious to hear what the research says about that. We know there are some things like being really sensitive to rejection, and there's like this new level of independence, and then there's more pressure academically and socially.

, but from your perspective, what are the merits of that idea that like, Being a teen is universally challenging.

Yes and no. Okay. because, , of the sorts of things you've talked about, it's a new period of life. Your body is changing. There are big hormonal changes. , your experience is changing.

You're leaving. if we're talking about going from grade school to middle school, that's a huge change. If we're talking about going from middle school to high school, that's a huge change. , so it's real time of transition and transitions are never, , particularly easy. and then the things that you felt, might be, you know, not so catastrophic before, Like having someone be mean or being rejected or seeing all your friends show up somewhere, but you didn't get invited or getting a bad grade on a test or those sorts of things.

, those, , feel much more dramatic in the teen years. So that's the, that's the challenging part. On the other hand, things that might've felt, you know, more mundane, more everyday before. feel that much more exciting, thrilling, , exhilarating. So the highs are highs, the lows are lows.

and they're good parts. And, and then moving out from your family is scary in one sense. I mean, , your family is still there, but they're not there in such everyday ways. And, you're more, you know, connected to people your age. On the other hand, there are all kinds of new experiences that you can have by that.

So I think it's, it's a time of challenge, but it's also a time of possibility and opportunity. I have this memory that I don't think I thought of until I was writing. you're the first person I've told about this, but I think about it often. When I was writing, this book, I suddenly had a memory of, , I was.

At a swimming pool, , I was by myself in the pool. I mean, there are other people around, but no one was in the pool. I was, , on a float and I had a book and this, it wasn't burning hot the way it is now. It was warm and nice out. And I remember, and the book was really wonderful, whatever it was, I just loved and was hoping not to throw it in the water.

And I just remember feeling like, Oh my gosh, I've got my whole life in front of me. The water felt cold and the sun felt warm. And this book was so fabulous. And I just thought of it as such a, like, I wonder what my life is going to be like in five years or 10 years. And just this joyous feeling. And sometimes I just go back to that feeling.

I just remember, I can't. Physically take myself back into the water, back on that float, back with that book, just to remember how absolutely exciting it was to have my life ahead of me and to, and to figure out what I was going to do. Yes, that's scary. Yes, I know it, but it was also, I just remember that one moment that stayed with me my whole life of also how exciting it was.

It's so, interesting how unique those couple of years are, because you're, you're, you're Like if you think about even in college or Beyond when you're like, I have no idea what i'll do with my life in the next five years Everyone's like what it's a little daunting you kind of have somewhat of a plan that you're hoping for But as a teen it's really the opposite You're like I have no idea what I want to do and you're really excited by that prospect Whereas the rest of your life you're like the unknown is foreign if you didn't know what you were going to be in five years for a lot of people that brings a lot Of anxiety so it's like this really unique period of time From a mental and emotional perspective, for sure.

Yeah, and we, we, , don't always handle it as well as we should. I think the adults, I mean, I think, , we, it's very pressured. , one 16 year old, I just remember, she had the most wonderful boots on, and I was doing a focus group with a of 16 year olds. Teen year old, not just, thought her were so fabulous.

so I don't remember her name, but I remember her boots. And, and she said, look, adults always say these are the best years of your life, but you're always pushing us, you know, when we were little, you're pushing us to be in middle school.

When we're middle school, you're pushing us to get ready for high school. When you're in high school, you're pushing us to get. You just don't let us and then you say, Oh, I would just love to be young again, but you don't let us enjoy this time of our life. And so I think we don't, I mean, I think we adults are at fault for not also, , letting young people slow down and, you know, And, , appreciate it.

Yeah. And not always feel like everything is a readiness test. Everything is for the future.

Yeah. It's, it's so interesting because I remember going through different periods of high school and college and even middle school and you do hear those tropes of like, Oh, I want to Oh, these are the best years of your life, you're so happy, you're so free, and being like, I don't want these to be the best years of my life, like, I hope this isn't how I feel forever, where there's all these moving pieces, or I don't know who I am, or who I want to be yet, and I think there was a lot of comfort in that, and like, these don't have to be the best years of my life, and that's okay, that's not how I feel at this point, because things will continue to change and improve, and that unknown can be, can be good.

And I think we pressure, , in the wrong way. , we pressure kids to know what they want to do. , I talked to so many, people when I was interviewing for the book , , you know, and they'd say, Hey, I'm just in middle school. How should I know what I want to do with my whole life? But everybody asks me, what do you want to do when you grow up?

And I think. The better question is, , and this is my daughter's thinking, , because she hated it when people asked her that question too, you know, what kind of person do you want to be? Those are questions we can answer.

I want to explore, I want to be curious, I want to be around animals because I love animals, whatever it is.

But I think we can answer that versus I should have a career in mind. Yeah. When we can't possibly.

Yeah, a hundred percent. I would love to hear from your perspective, whether it's from the interviews you've done or the research that you've read, , and worked on, what you see as these other like pitfalls or misconceptions about the teen years, either things that we generally misunderstand or Ways that we're kind of in a disservice to teens and the way that we're asking these questions or putting on these pressures, , or even different ways we've moved as a society where it's like, that's not as effective as it could be, ,

well, let me just say that I'm not just seeing it, I'm going to try to change it. I don't do, I don't write books to sit on a shelf. you know, or to be read. I, I write books as a platform for action. So, , I'm going to be working with schools around the country to try to change the things that I don't think are so good.

when I started the research for the breakthrough years, I didn't know it would be called the breakthrough years. And speaking of unknown, I knew that I wanted to do something in adolescence, but I had no idea whom I wanted to read, how I wanted to do it. I mean, I, it just was a great big gray, you know, swamp.

I had no idea. , but I remember, , I started with young people and asked them, , 14 to 18 year olds, ended up talking to 38 of them. And I, I asked them, what do you want to know about your own development? What should adults know about people your age? If you had one wish to improve the lives of people your age, what would it be?

Just open ended kinds of questions to see what was on, their minds. And over and over and over, two things came out. One is you don't understand us. , we're not so sure we understand ourselves, but you don't understand us for sure. And two, People don't like teenagers. And so I went, whoa, you know, that was nothing I expected to look at.

And so, , I started looking in the research for how society's views of teenagers affect them. And there were a few studies, , lots and lots of studies about the negative risks that teenagers take, which only a very small proportion of teenagers actually do take. But no studies about this. And so I asked the same question.

In the study that I did, I did study of close to 2000, nine through 19 year olds nationally representative, which means it represents diversity of this country and, 38%, which I thought was a huge number, 38 percent said, Don't stereotype us, don't label us, don't make assumptions about us, don't generalize, and, so what do we get wrong was your question, and They wrote it in, they said it to me.

, we filmed young people, they said it on film. It's, some of us are addicted to our, cell phones or our smart phones or, you know, our devices, whatever we call them. , but not all of us. The internet doesn't define us and isn't going to be the end of us. And don't label our generation, by the way, they said anxious or the, you know, the mental health challenged or the depressed or the, you know, the COVID or whatever.

We're not those generations. Don't put us all in a group. There's a lot of differences among us. Some of us, , are lazy, but not all of us. Some of us are snowflakes, but not all of us. You know, all of the. Kind of stereotypes that we have about and some of us make risky decisions, but not all of us. So, , understanding, differences, understanding the individuality and the strengths.

the joy, the insight, the knowledge a lot of people said, we're smarter than you think. Yeah, and so I think that's really important. I mean, I don't know if adults like hearing this, but I think it's really important for us to know that, , and studies show this, that people will, will live up to or down to expectations.

So, if we think all teenagers make stupid, risky decisions, or particular our own teenagers, they're actually a little bit, not a huge amount, but a little bit more likely to do that. And that's before they actually do that. There have been studies that started with parents conceptions of teenagers before they became teenagers, and found that if you expect storm and stress, you know, a really stormy relationship, you're more likely to get it.

Again, not a huge statistical correlation, and it's a correlation, not causation, but, a strong enough one to have some concern.

You did an op ed about this in the LA Times, I believe, where you talked about this danger of labeling our generation, especially with mental health related things, whether it's the anxious generation, the depressed generation, the teen mental health crisis, and I would love to get your thoughts on how you think a more effective way to navigate that would be, because whether we're doing more research or Gen Z is more vocal about what they're struggling with or we're maybe more sensitive and more open to feeling those emotions, whatever it is, we're seeing larger numbers of depression and anxiety and feeling stressed and burnt out and overwhelmed.

, and like you said, if we have these large stereotypes and labels, there can be negative implications there. So if you had your best case scenario and the work that I'm sure you're going to do as people continue to read your book and you work with all these, , populations. How do you see this panning out?

, and what would be the better path forward?

Well, what I said, you know, sometimes we don't like complexity, but what I said in that editorial was Don't misunderstand me. There is a real mental health crisis.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's just don't label everyone. That's what I said. Yeah. and there are, there's some evidence that people will start to see the symptoms in themselves that might not be serious symptoms.

Which doesn't mean we shouldn't take people who really do have serious symptoms seriously. So we just need to a little bit more, it's not this one way or the other way we need to be more nuanced and in what we understand. , I think it's important for, you doing this podcast to share your experience.

I think that that is just a huge help. , therapy teen, another podcast or talk with sack, another podcast. I think those sorts of things are fabulous. So one of the things that I found was that a number of young people didn't know what was normal. Like, I'm not supposed to be feeling this way. like, if a friend breaks up with me and I feel like it's the end of the world.

like, does no one feel this way, or am I the only one, or, you know, so I think understanding what's normal, and by, People talking to each other, it's so helpful. And I also, really like the research, and I think it's been true in your own life, too. Which is, if you're in the middle of a severe crisis, this isn't necessarily the time.

But, becoming a helper. is probably the best route to mental health that we have. If people can help each other, , rather than feel like they're the helped, , they're much more likely to thrive. So, having opportunities, teenagers to become helpers, to do something, if there's a mental health crisis, yes, the adults have a lot to do, but there are things that teenagers can do themselves.

, I love, the hotlines that young people have for each other. and it's even in helping your, friend. It's not just a formal thing.

you know someone sitting alone in the cafeteria and looks pretty miserable, is there something that you or a group of people could do?

I don't mean you personally, but you know,

young

people could do So, understanding how important it is to mental health, to, Do things that are beyond yourself to help others to make the world a better place in some way. I think it's just One way that we can help our society begin to right itself

Yeah, I love that.

I took , Science of Wellbeing this last semester with Dr. Seligman and it was the first time he taught at Penn for undergrads in like seven years or something crazy and that was one of the points that he stressed throughout the course was like the fastest and most long lasting way you see a boost in mood, is doing an act of kindness for someone else and you

think

about that sense of purpose that's so integral

to your sense of wellbeing and

feeling like you're needed by someone else and subjectively and objectively

objectively, we just

know that is

so,

so crucial and I think

teens struggle

with

that because you

are dependent on so many people. You're dependent on your parents. You are going to school because you have to. There's

all these things

that you're doing because it's too much.

just what you're told. And it feels like there's less people that are dependent on you or that you have that larger purpose. And so I, I think it's, it can be challenging. You have to be a little bit more creative as a teen to create that for yourself, but it is so, so important.

Well, and I think, , one of my big recommendations for what we could do to make being a teenager better is to give what is called positive risks.

There's so much research on negative risks, smoking, drinking, you know, jumping off of cliffs. I don't know. But, if we gave young people and very few people take those negative risks, you know, it's a small proportion of any one of those risks. But if we gave young people All of them opportunities.

We build it into the system to do things that were just a little outside of your comfort zone, which I mean, helping someone else is out. That's something that I think, you know, that would, I think, make such a big difference. There should be opportunities. There should be clubs or after school activities or, ways to, to do it that you don't just have You've been very inventive in what you've done.

You've been very, very, very much of an entrepreneur and very creative, but for other people who might not want to take that big elite, , there should just be everyday opportunities that are built in for people to do that.

Yeah, a hundred percent. , I want to ask your perspective on as a parent and even from like a teen to a teen how to support someone when they are struggling because you've done a lot of work and had conversations on what is not helpful to say and and what is Invalidating which I think a lot of teens can relate to but a lot of parents tune into the podcast to kind of understand how they can support individuals and their their kids or their their Other teens in their life and how they can validate that experience without alienating them, which is another challenge that comes up.

, but when teens are struggling and it doesn't even have to be an official diagnosis because we know people get stressed and burnt out and it's just part of the emotional experience. How can you do that effectively?

, I, I did some consulting this past year for the agency for children and families and the federal government.

And we, we actually went out and asked young people that question and filmed them so that we made some films to share, listening to, teens answer that question. So I'll, tell you what they said. , they said, , validate us. just listen and I love the words of one young person I interviewed who said listen more than you talk when you talk just say, wow, that must have felt hard or, you know, Oh, I understand how you felt.

what's not helpful is saying, well, when I was your age and then I got over it, you know, that, that doesn't, that doesn't make you feel very good. If someone says that to you, or being defensive, well, I didn't mean to do that. It's not my fault. And, You just have to bite your tongue and not be defensive.

And just listen. And then, don't fix it. Don't try to fix it. Because what you want to do is to help young people come up with ways that they can fix it themselves. So if you have some ideas, you can say, Here are two or three things that you could try. What one sound good to you or do you have another idea, but don't just say this is what you should do because that makes people feel unempowered and, just worse.

, and then, ,, having, other people to talk to. It might not be you. If, if you just can't listen, because you feel so guilty, or you're going to just get so angry, or you're going to feel so helpless, see if you can't find someone else in your child's life.

life who could listen, who could be, it doesn't have to be you, , or it could be someone else and then you, , as a support system. So that's another thing that, that's helpful.

Yeah, it's so interesting because it feels so counterintuitive because we want to alleviate distress or if we know the solution, we're like, this is how this can go away and this is how you can feel better.

And it's reminds me of like the idea of independent play. I, I work in a lab with kids and I took a positive education classes last semester and we read like so many papers and independent play is so important. And when the parents like, here is how you stack the blocks, the kids don't get to learn how to do that themselves.

And it's, So hard to be like, okay, just let them do the toys however they want to it's like you feel like you should be Helping them because they're so young and I think as a teen it's the same thing and even with it's with friends It can hard to not give advice and instead just listen and let them vent and yet That's what can feel most supportive

and then use I call it a process called shared solutions , and you don't want to do this in the heat of the moment.

If there's a problem that you're facing, , what you can do is you can define the problem and then brainstorm solutions. And then, look at what would work and what wouldn't work for you for your teenager in each of those solutions.

And then pick one to try. Okay. So that you are, building the competence, you know, teenagers said to me so often, we know we're going out into the world and, and we need to go out there with skills. We want to learn how to handle these things. So when we're fixing it, we're not giving them the tools that they'll need now and in the future to solve things.

Yeah, I think one of the common things that parents and adults feel like is that teens want too much responsibility. And I remember that being like, I'm ready for this. I want the responsibility and you feel like you're, you're not there yet. It's, not time. Those privileges are gonna come later. What are your thoughts on that both from talking to parents and teens and every situation is different, but is there a general guidelines you have for navigating that nuanced situation?

Yeah, yes. I mean, It's a building term. It's, , scaffolding is what it's called.

Yeah.

So that you put the supports up to hold the building, and then as the building is steady enough, you remove the scaffolds. there's a lot of research. Wendy Grolnick has done a lot of this research about, this is called autonomy supportive parenting.

, so you're, providing skills rather than fixing things for them. if it's a new situation, you want to have more guidance. And then as your, child, your teenager is more experienced, you want them to take more responsibility. So it's just, you're just a little bit of a stretch, you know, the, the,

yeah,

it's scaffolding is kind of the, the, Helping people, but not fixing it for them, but helping them move so that they can fix it to themselves, and it shouldn't be so hard that they couldn't possibly do it, but hard enough so that it feels like you've really accomplished something.

Yeah, it's like the flow state where you're still building that mastery and you get that sense of purpose, but it's also like a little bit foreign and a new experience and outside of your comfort zone.

Yeah, yeah, and flow, flow is a good word because it comes from being challenged.

Yeah, I mean,

we get into flow states, , from, trying something hard and, and then just getting it and going with it.

And time stops to exist and those sorts of things. That's what a flow state is.

Yeah, I would love to get your perspective on Resources and how resources are allocated because we talked about there's a teen mental health crisis. Teens are struggling and even if they're not part of this group of individuals that are like I I'm overwhelmed and I don't feel supported enough.

Teens find these years It's overwhelming. It's a lot of expectations. It's a lot of growth. It's a lot of challenging experiences and there's so many opinions on where we direct attention, whether it's phones in schools or maybe it's skills education. Maybe it's more resources at home. Having talked to so many teens and parents, where would you be putting your energy when it comes to supporting teens and helping teens?

, with the important people in their lives. So, support really comes largely from people. , there is no growth without people. So, with parents, and how they can help teens, and there's a good program that's in Philadelphia, that, the CHOP program, , I can add it

in the show notes.

Yeah, add it in the show notes. Perfect. It's, Ken Ginsberg. Yes. Has, has, a wonderful website. I'm going to have

him on the podcast, so at some point that conversation will be here.

So yes, reference Ken. He's got wonderful, wonderful supports and helps for, for parents. and for teens themselves or for adolescents themselves.

, I would put the support with friends. , I think that, things like bullying or those sorts of , setting a group culture where there's no bullying where young people come up with solutions, , has been one of the more effective ways of stopping bullying. It doesn't mean the adults are saying, Oh, you go do anything you want.

Yeah.

the, the adult is saying no bullying, but, , I think that's, that's an effective way to do it. , and then, In terms of phones, I, I'm a little different than most people. I think that there should be rules. That's, I do think there should be rules, but I think if we just make the rules and do them to kids, they're not learning the skills to manage these things.

So we have to balance, , the rules with some autonomy support where young people are learning to handle. difficult things like you keep wanting to scroll down and how do you stop yourself? That's something that you should learn at this stage, not just have them taken away so you never learn them. , but again, there's a responsibility with phones with, , parents can't do it alone.

The media companies have to step in. Schools have to step in. , lots of people have to step in. So.

Yeah, no, it's, it's really interesting. And I think that's exactly right. Taking that collective approach, I think about my like tech education that I got in middle school and we learned how to type and then we learned how to spot false information or fake news, and if we were learning those similar skills about being a critical consumer and even just some things are good for your mental health and some things aren't, and here's how you can unfollow and block people and curate your feed, and here is how you can.

Make sure that you're setting boundaries and limits around the amount of time that you're on your phone because there's research around that as well or even just blue light is going to impact your sleep. So here are some guidelines on when to use your technology. I think there's so much potential there beyond just like you were saying, okay, here are the rules at home, here's what we're setting in place, but really that scaffolding.

Yes, absolutely. And a task force that I was involved with, with the federal government, Kids Online Health and Safety, worked with the American Academy of Pediatrics to come up with a whole set of cards for parents, , to help them have those conversations, to help them figure out how to have kids.

Some tech free times to help kids learn that critical thinking so that they can figure out what's creepy and not safe on the phone and those sorts of things.

On the topic of parents and having these challenging conversations, are there other recommendations that you have when it comes to, especially mental health challenges, from the parents perspective, trying to support their teen, trying to build that connection, while also not trying to, invalidate or have them withdraw more, , and you talk to so many teens, which I'm sure also echoed that experience of like, I don't want to talk to my parents.

It's challenging, or I don't know how they'll respond. What are your recommendations there? ,

Well, for parents, it's to try to keep the lines of communication open. And I, I felt that one of the gifts that my mother gave me and that I gave my children. Was that I could tell her nicely, never, never in a bad way, nicely.

I could tell her if I thought she was not doing something right.

we could have a discussion about her as a parent. And that was just a gift. , so I didn't have the kind of fights and tension with my mother that most teenagers Yes, of course we had some, you know, battles. But I just was so grateful during that time that she was my mother.

, And I treated my children that way, too. That is, if they thought I did something that, that was really not right. if they told me, , in a mean way, I probably, I'm sure that I wasn't going to listen, you know, come back and tell me, write me a note if you can't say it nicely.

But, , but afterwards, , I was doing a speech when the book first came out and both of my children were there. And so I knew I was going to be asked how I screwed up as a parent. So I asked them in advance what they wanted me to say. And, and they said I screwed up plenty. But what they said was that I was always open to learning from it.

I was always open to hearing from it. So it never became a thing.

and they had to learn how to say it very nicely. So for, for us, it means, trying the best we can not to take things personally. , trying to listen if we can't getting support, , or finding someone else who can because kids do need someone whom they can talk, , and, and not feel that they're disappointing them completely or being judged as awful people or those sorts of things.

keeping those lines of communication open are really important. , for young people, it's finding, you know, , people you can talk to. It may be your parents. It's wonderful if you're parents. It may be that you need special ways to do it, like writing notes not just, you know, Sitting face to face with your parents if that doesn't work, and if it makes it worse than find other people you'll have a lifetime to figure out how to deal with your parents But you know for this moment finding a teacher or a coach An older girlfriend or boyfriend or someone who you can talk to then I think the, the mental health system in this country is, just needs a lot of work.

I mean, this mental health crisis has laid bare the fact that we don't have the kinds of services and supports that we need. And so that's just a whole other societal problem that we need, need to address.

My last question that I wanted to ask you, I think so much of the teenage years are really distressing and overwhelming because teens don't know what they're going through it's also foreign and there's not always that interest in learning about the teen years and Reading these books or listening to these podcasts because like you kind of talked about hearing from other people It's like you don't get what i'm going through.

It feels condescending at times But you've spoken to so many teens and you've Or aware of so much research about this time period and so if there were a few things that you could tell teens that you wish people were equipped with this knowledge going into this experience or they wish they had this insight What would those things be?

Number one, I would want them to better understand their development. have a way of answering their questions.

I don't think they're, they're ways to answer the questions that you have and you don't know that other people have those questions. So that's one thing that I would have. For teens, I would seek out, it's something that I learned as a new mother, but I, , I think it's relevant for life in general.

See if you can just find at least one friend or one adult, who's just, just makes you feel, good, feel like you're a good person and, and you feel better about yourself when you're with them.

That that's another thing that I would , hope for. , I, for teens, I would have them, know that it's a long time to grow. Yeah. And that what feels, , momentous today. in three years, five years won't feel as momentous. So even though it feels momentous right now, and it is momentous right now, know that it's not going to be forever.

, I would, , want them to begin to learn the things that you're learning in the classes that you're taking. , I would want them to learn the skills like, how do you deal with people when you disagree with them? , how do you have goals for yourself or wishes for yourself that you work on making come true?

How do you solve problems when they're challenging? How do you take on challenges or difficulties when you have them? I would want teens to look around, find people who can do these. things, or ask people, , whom you know, those would be my wishes for, for teens. I brought a group of young people once into a corporation because. Their parents who work for a corporation wanted to know how to better talk to their, their teenagers. And so I brought a group of teenagers in and thought we'd ask them directly. And it was such a good idea because it was just wonderful.

It modeled, you know, it was like, okay. You talk to these kids on this stage, you can maybe talk to your own kids. What they said pretty uniformly was the kids who got into trouble were the ones who didn't have any interest. So, it doesn't have to be your forever career.

It doesn't have to be your forever passion. But something that you want to learn about or do or care about. , just important to have that in your life.

I love that. Well, for people that want to check out your other interviews or buy your books, where can they do that?

They could go to ellengolinski. com, , my website, and there's a place to order the book there, and lots of different kinds of booksellers.

And they're also the newsletters that I'm writing, and it also lists the podcasts and other media that I've been on.

Incredible. Well, thank you so much. This was amazing. Amazing to talk to you.

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