215. i interviewed my THERAPIST?!! validation, dbt, stigma + more feat. dr. caroline fleck
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Today's guest is Dr. Caroline Fleck—a licensed psychologist, corporate consultant, author, and an Adjunct Clinical Instructor at Stanford University. She is a respected voice in psychology and has been featured in national media outlets, including The New York Times, Good Morning America, and The Huffington Post.
Dr. Fleck's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/carolinefleckphd/
In this episode, we discuss:
+ The stigma around getting treated with DBT
+ If meditation can help in treating depression
+ How you see the world when you're depressed
+ The roles of acceptance & change in DBT
+ What types of people are motivated by acceptance vs. change
+ Why Gen Z is facing a mental health crisis
+ Validation & why it's so important to start practicing it
+ 8 ways to validate someone else
+ The key difference between validation & praise
+ Why we self-invalidate & how to change this
+ What happens when we're chronically invalidated
+ Using DBT to treat self-harm & suicidality
+ Supporting a loved one in crisis without reinforcing harmful behaviors
+ Seeking external validation
+ The best way to describe living with a mental health disorder
+ How suffering can add value to your life
+ What Gen Z should know about validation
+ So much more!
Mentioned In The Episode…
SHOP GUEST RECOMMENDATIONS: https://amzn.to/3A69GOC
About She Persisted (formerly Nevertheless, She Persisted)
After a year and a half of intensive treatment for severe depression and anxiety, 18-year-old Sadie recounts her journey by interviewing family members, professionals, and fellow teens to offer self-improvement tips, DBT education, and personal experiences. She Persisted is the reminder that someone else has been there too and your inspiration to live your life worth living.
a note: this is an automated transcription so please ignore any accidental misspellings!
Sadie: [00:00:00] Welcome to She Persisted, the Gen Z Mental Health Podcast. I'm your host, Sadie Sutton. Let's get into it.
Dr. Fleck: you have to make meaning out of suffering.
If you don't, it's just suffering and it was for nothing.
If you do then you grow through it, or you help others as a result of it,
but it's not for nothing,
and that is a choice we have to make, and I do believe that everybody can make that choice
in some way, shape, or form
Hello. Hello you guys and welcome back to She Persisted. We have an episode that is like six years in the making. Today, basically almost since I started the podcast, we have my therapist on the show. She just came out with a book called Validation, which I'm absolutely obsessed with You guys have heard me talk about how crucial of a shift I saw with my relationship with my parents. Once we both learned to validate, when I learned to advocate. For validation and be vulnerable about what I was experiencing so they could in turn, speak to that, create space for it.
Help me feel like I was [00:01:00] seen and heard and belonged. And so we talk about that and so many other things in this episode. A little bio for you, Dr. Caroline Flack is a licensed clinical psychologist, corporate consultant, author, and an adjunct clinical instructor at Stanford University.
She's a respected. Voice in psychology and has been featured in national media outlets, including the New York Times, good Morning America, and Huffington Post and her new book Validation is available everywhere you can buy books. I highly recommend whether you are going through mental health challenges, someone in your life is, or you just wanna be more effective in your relationships or more effective with yourself.
Like we talked about in this episode, and she ties into in her book, there's really no one that can't benefit from learning the skills of validation and see outcomes in almost every area. It's like. Really the psychology magical skill that we're all, for some reason lacking. So to dive into the topics today, we talk about the stigma about receiving dialectical behavioral therapy treatment, if meditation can help in treating depression, how you see the world when you're [00:02:00] depressed,
we talk about the roles of acceptance and change in DBT. What types of people are more motivated to accept their experience versus just lean into changing it? We talk about why Gen Z is facing a mental health crisis, and both our thoughts on that validation and why it's so important to start practicing it.
Eight ways you can validate someone else the key between validation and praise, because they are very different. We talk about why we self invalidate and how to change this. What happens when we're chronically invalidated using DBT to treat self-harm and suicidality. Not much of a trigger warning here.
We do talk about what that looks like in DBT and like the different boundaries that are set and how you can support something, but no details, are gone into there. And we have a therapist on the podcast. So it's done in a very effective, nuanced and mindful way. We talk about supporting a loved one in crisis without reinforcing harmful behaviors, which is something that's really challenging to do, but also important to be aware of.
Seeking external validation, whether that's something you should be doing or should not. Spoiler alert, you should be, and we dive into [00:03:00] why we talk about the best way to describe living with mental health challenges or mental illness, because it can be really hard to verbalize that and then in turn, get validation for that experience.
We talk about ways that suffering can add value to your life and what Gen Z should know about validation. So we really go all over in this episode. It is truly, I think. My favorite conversation I've ever had on the podcast, if not like top three. This is an episode everyone should listen to, and I really, really hope you get as much value out of it as I did.
And I, I loved bringing this conversation on the podcast, so I don't wanna take up too much of your time yapping in this intro, but I really do hope you love it. And if you do share, leave a review. Tag me, send me a message. All the things and all the links to things we mentioned will be in the show notes.
So with that, let's dive in.
Sadie: Well,
Dr. Fleck, welcome to She Persisted.
Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here
Dr. Fleck: with like
Sadie: six years in the making.
Dr. Fleck: It seriously has been just about that
Sadie: It's crazy. , you have a new book about Validation Out and [00:04:00] we're going to talk a lot about that and why it's so important, both from the perspective of struggling with your mental health and that being an unmet need for a lot of people that are Not feeling seen and heard, which is a very prominent element of suffering with mental health challenges.
But also why it's so important in your other relationships. And getting what you want from other people, and being effective, , and just showing up in all these really crucial aspects of our lives. so, to get started, for people who haven't read your book, can you tell me your background, how you decided to go into psychology, specifically DBT and BPD, which is a very unique subset that a lot of
people don't choose to
go into, and then how you came across validation as this area that was so under discussed and under emphasized, especially in, like, the general public.
Dr. Fleck: Yeah, so I can give my very protected and professional answer to that question, which is all about my research [00:05:00] interests and everything.
But, you know, given that I think a lot of your listeners can relate, empathize, understand. , hopefully not judge mental health issues. I'll just be straight and say that I, I suffered from depression I was, , in high school and in my early 20s so I was in a pretty serious episode of depression for what felt like almost 10 to 15 years and I had just tried everything and I frankly found Many of the providers that I spoke with to be, and by providers I mean therapists, psychiatrists, to be really invalidating.
, I found therapy often was punishing, confusing, and not helpful.
Yeah.
And so, in addition to therapy, I had tried a bunch of other, you know, interventions, meds, x, y, and z, and nothing had really helped. So I selfishly, I wanted [00:06:00] to go into the field to, like, see if I could figure out how to treat depression.
I mean, clearly the, what I was receiving was not doing anything for me. And I certainly experienced a lot of it to be damaging. And so I wanted to kind of right that wrong. So that, I mean, on some level that was my motivation to go into it. And what I had found to be really helpful for me The only thing that seemed to have any real substance to it was meditation.
Hmm,
So, meditation for me was just the only space in which I could kind of calm my mind and maybe get a sense, just a slight taste, of what freedom from suffering would be like. And so I was really interested in mindfulness based therapies. And at the and still, DBT was like the intervention, it was the first psychotherapy to introduce mindfulness [00:07:00] as a key component, as like a skill set that, that patients learn part of the treatment.
And so although DBT was focused on, , It is a treatment for borderline personality disorder, not depression. The meditation piece pulled me in. And then once I started studying DBT and training in it and learning more about borderline personality disorder, I felt really called to work with that population because it is among the most, unfortunately stigmatized
Yeah. and
Sadie: invalidated.
Dr. Fleck: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, the, the amount of stigma there. with the work and meditation that I was seeing in DBT, that kind of combo drew me to it.
Sadie: so, I have two things that came up. One is this idea of borderline personality disorder being like this almost a case study for DBT and.
And Like, I don't think it's understood and perceived as like, well, this is the best possible [00:08:00] news, and I feel like it should be, like, when think about what we learn the most about humans, a lot of it, it's from these extreme conditions, right? \ we know about loneliness from people that are completely isolated from society and lack relationships and interaction.
Like, I think of Jeannie, the linguistics example, we don't that connection and exposure to these things. We're forever. put on this trajectory we can't come back from. We learn a lot about our physiological health from being in extreme conditions. Whether it's like weather, climate, all these different things.
And I think DBT is the best example of that, where when we look at borderline personality disorder, it's this Case study of individuals that struggle so much with emotion regulation and tolerating distress and being effective in our relationships to to the nth degree. And if these skills and this framework is effective for people who are struggling so much, think about what it can do for the everyday person.
And we don't think about it Like
Yes.
Dr. Fleck: Oh my gosh, you are so speaking my language. Like, that is what I was, like, wanting to scream from the rooftops for the last, you know, however many years I've been doing which is too [00:09:00] long. But, like, yes, if this works in these extreme
Sadie: Suicidally depressed, no patient, no therapist want to work with these
Right,
Dr. Fleck: and if it can affect change there, imagine what it can do at the less extreme. So I think you're exactly right. It's like, You know, some of the, the strategies and skills in DBT, the fact that they work for this population, that's an indication of their potential. Not like their limited use.
Sadie: Yeah, yeah. And we think about like extreme athletes, like the wellness practices they're implementing.
Now your favorite influencer is doing like hyperbaric and cupping. Like why aren't we doing the same thing for mental health?
Dr. Fleck: That is such a good point. I honestly think, and this makes me very sad, because I think we've come a long way with how we talk about research and treat BPD, I still think a lot of it comes down to stigma. That makes me sad, but I think We see folks with BPD as almost so unrelatable, so other, so different, [00:10:00] that it's hard to even imagine how that, you know, what works there could work for me on some
Sadie: I think it's also so challenging because our mental health is so synonymous for a lot of people with our identity It's such experience that the way that we experience things and cope with them to separate that from who we are as humans and how we choose to identify and present ourselves.
So I think for some people when they're like, I'm doing this treatment that is really effective for borderline personality disorder, there's like this in group, out group, I don't want
that stigma
is really prominent as well.
Dr. Fleck: Yeah, and then there's another, you know, equally important factor here, which is that You know, thankfully, BPD is relatively rare, and as you've, I know, mentioned on, on this podcast before, it's finding evidence based treatments and finding folks who are comprehensively trained to provide DBT is even harder.
So this is, like, a very small community, and so getting the word out is, again, that much harder.
Sadie: Yeah. Yeah. The other thing you mentioned is [00:11:00] mindfulness, which every time I've done DBT, especially when I was at, like, my lowest points.
You do mindfulness with the caveat of, like, if you're really, really struggling and suffering and there's self hatred and all the intense emotions, maybe mindfulness isn't right for you yet. So I'm really curious why that was something that was so effective. in that, , dark point, when for so many it's like, oh, that's like, might be dangerous at this point, let's wait.
Dr. Fleck: Yeah, and I'm actually glad you flagged that because for folks who are severely depressed or in the throes of a bipolar episode, we know that, you know, sitting in meditation, sitting with thoughts may not be the most helpful and in fact could make things worse.
For me, It gave me insight into the judgmental voice in my head and I was able to see that I was not that voice, which sounds incredibly meta, but like,
Sadie: we're metacognitions, what it is. How do we think about our [00:12:00] thoughts?
Yeah,
Dr. Fleck: and that was really the insight I had and I would just get these be straight, like, sitting in meditation for 45 minutes when you're super depressed, like, two thirds of that was very painful.
But I was fortunate enough to have just, like, these moments within that sitting where I would just have, like, freedom from just the suffering and the voice and everything else. And so it was those moments that I was like, ooh, there's something there. I'm not seeing this in anything else. I'm not getting this anywhere else.
Like, what is that.
Sadie: Yeah. It's really interesting. And I think a lot of people find that a different ways and that's what they latch on to is like. At the beginning of their healing process.
For some, like maybe it's exercise and that's the alleviation from those feelings. But especially with depression, it's so all consuming that anytime you're not feeling that, you're very aware of it because so different from your almost constant emotional and internal experience.
Dr. Fleck: Yeah, and I think another really, [00:13:00] I mean a hallmark of depression is that negativity. there's just this, this negative judgment, you know, these sunglasses that you're you have on can't seem to take off.
And it just feels like everything has this shade to it. And the ability to see things non judgmentally more objectively, I think that's a huge, , relief if nothing else
Sadie: to validate, like, this is something you don't learn when you're depressed, but that's, like, biologically how depression works. Like, when we look at studies of depressed versus non depressed populations, they spend statistically longer staring at negative stimuli. They, when they reflect on their past experience, they coat them with this negative bias that doesn't exist in the, 10 years from then when you then reflect, so it's like it's not your fault.
It makes sense that you're thinking this way. It's not that you can't take the goggles off. It's like no, that's how your brain is actually working. And that's what's so [00:14:00] challenging and that you're not even aware. 'cause you're can't I just think differently? Like why am I not noticing the good things?
And it's like
can't,
Dr. Fleck: at this at this
Sadie: time. disease
right? That's like,
Dr. Fleck: I mean, it would be the same thing if you have diabetes. Like, why can't I just regulate my blood Well, that's what diabetes does.
the nature
Sadie: Yeah. And again, it's like. It's so internal that we can't objectively think about it that way, is what's so challenging.
Dr. Fleck: That's right.
Sadie: , I want to talk about acceptance and change and DBT is the origin of validation because I think it's so fascinating and It also explains why validation is so crucial in shifting behavior and mental health. In addition to just like, feeling good and being helpful in our relationships. But it has really meaningful impacts on clinical outcomes and just our lives as a whole.
So can you explain this like, balance of acceptance and change? How Marsha Linehan came across this because validation I think really sits on that dialectic.
Dr. Fleck: It does. So. So, you know, by the time Linehan came on the [00:15:00] scene and started to develop this treatment DBT for borderline personality disorder at the time, it was all like behavior therapy through like all of the evidence based treatments we had at that time were behavioral or cognitive behavioral interventions, which simply means that the focus was on changing behaviors.
And or thoughts.
Sadie: and hmm
Dr. Fleck: And so we were really relying on strategies like positive reinforcement and shaping and stuff that, frankly, most folks have heard
Yeah, yeah.
like a Have
you trained a
Sadie: dog? You're a pro
in behavioral
Dr. Fleck: modification.
Exactly. And we have like all sorts of books on this, how to train your boss, how to probably train your kid, you know, and it's all the same principles.
Yeah. Yeah. Atomic
Sadie: habits.
Dr. Fleck: Exactly. Exactly. And that stuff does, it works really well a lot of the time. However, it doesn't work all the time, and with the folks, Marsha was trying to, Marsha Linehan was trying to treat folks with BPD and severe suicidality, self harm, really rigid [00:16:00] and difficult treat behaviors, she found that that population was not very receptive to the emphasis on change, and she talks in her book, , about self You know, okay, so she thought, I'm going to just communicate acceptance of, you know, she's going in there, she's trying to help them problem solve and fix what's not working and they get really shut down and they feel really judged and they don't
like
Sadie: it.
Dr. Fleck: Mm hmm So then she goes to the other extreme, as she describes, and she really focuses acceptance, you know, in this kind of unconditional positive regard and, and, you know, then patients maybe loved her, but they weren't getting any better. And so, combining those strategies, is there a way that I can communicate that I accept you as you are, while at the same time emphasizing that there needs to be some change here?
And that is the motto of DBT. It's kind of the, you're doing the best you can and you need to do better. And what she did was she developed [00:17:00] a set of validation skills to help therapists communicate that acceptance. And she used those alongside those tried and true behavioral principles. when she combined those two methods, all of a sudden we had something incredibly powerful.
We were able to get through to folks and help people whom we'd up to that point considered untreatable. So this is a very big breakthrough that, for some reason, didn't get, you know, certainly not had a lot of public attention, but it was huge when this happened. This was in the early 90s.
Sadie: Mm hmm. I'm curious if you have any thoughts or theories, even just like anecdotally, about who, Just change works for and also who really desires that acceptance because when I think about just changing and I see this content all the time on social media it's almost like It's like the life coach model where someone no one's coming for you.
Nothing's gonna change until you do. [00:18:00] You are on your own. And I'm like, like, it makes me less motivated. I'm like,
yeah.
well, that sucks. like, you suck. Like, I'm not take your advice now. Like, it almost turns me off to making any shifts. I'm like, well, you try solving
Yeah, yeah, yeah. This Is
are you kidding me? , and so I'm kind of curious.
Is it people that maybe internally have a high level of Is it acceptance for their experiences? Is it people that are less emotionally sensitive? Are they not stuck in that suffering spiral? I'm curious who you kind of think can rely on JustChange
to kind of
almost offer insight into that experience.
And then, who really does require that acceptance so we can have that self awareness? Like, okay, I'm in that camp. I need someone to really be like, this is hard,
and here's
how we can shift
Dr. Fleck: self radical view on that, which is that even the folks who are more change oriented, in my experience, they benefit more, improve faster, reach their goals quicker. When validation is also part of how [00:19:00] incorporate validation with those folks that said there You know, I do a lot of executive coaching and so I'll have folks coming in and they have very specific Agendas for things that they want to work on and address and it is very like help me solve this problem yeah, and You know, this is gonna sound maybe like a stereotype, but there's a very type a quality that like give me homework, right?
And I think certain people feel a certain amount of control in that, and in that they find reassurance. Whereas some others hear overwhelming. Like, what they feel from that is stress and pressure. And so, I think for folks who are, again, perhaps more type A, focused on solving the problem, feel control when they have more answers. change strategies can work really well. , and it, frankly, if they've been effective, so
if they
have some sense of mastery already. [00:20:00] They have some degree of confidence in their ability to execute. In the absence of that, Me just telling you to change, Is, is disheartening. If you don't feel, if you feel like you fundamentally lack the capacity to do so.
Sadie: Yeah, I took grit lab last semester, and one of the things that Angela Duckworth mentioned was like, we have these mental frameworks we use to motivate ourselves, and we see this at every level, and especially with extremely high achievers.
I think one of the most common things you think of is like, it's about the journey, not the
destination
And you hear all these highly successful people parrot and repeat that and you're focused on the day to day, it doesn't matter when you get to the end point. And she found through research that if you've never reached that destination, focusing on the journey is not effective.
not
motivated.
It doesn't cause change. And so when you're doing this for the first time, The destination is far more motivating and essential in getting through that journey at all. Once you've gone to the destination, then you can be like, okay, it's about the journey.
[00:21:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
but if you've never had that success in the first place, who wants to be continuously stuck in the journey?
Like, that's what you're trying to get out of. So it just doesn't motivate
Dr. Fleck: That's exactly right. And in fact, in DBT, kind of one of the skills we teach, clients or those in DBT is mastery. So we try and set up experiences for them that are achievable, that can help them consistently reach that end goal so that they can start to.
Enjoy the process a little bit more because you're absolutely right. There's a bit of learned helplessness taken shape. And in the context of that, you don't enjoy the process. The journey is really painful and it doesn't go anywhere. It's just a circle.
Yeah.
Sadie: We're gonna talk about the Gen Z mental health crisis, but my theory is like we lack agency and mastery and that is what everything sits upon why struggling. But like, I think that Gen Z feels a huge amount of responsibility and capability when it comes to like, solving the world's problems, the politics, higher education, [00:22:00] we are more motivated, we're trying harder for all these things, like academics is a completely different world, like we're highly motivated and we feel the responsibility, but I don't think that we have the belief that our actions have a meaningful outcome.
on those markers. And I also think collapses on an individual level. I don't think Gen Z as individuals has a belief that their actions will have a meaningful impact on their mental health, on their relationships, on their connections. And so without that, everything collapses.
And there's, that lack of mastery when it comes to, like, our own individual experiences, but also the world as a whole.
Dr. Fleck: Yeah, I think that's really, I think that's really smart observation, and, you know, I do think some of it comes back to, we're not as, like, plugged into, like, small community things. anymore right? So it's like you're not seeing change within your community with the, with the activities that you plug into, like the social world, the internet is huge, you know, in order to get a following on Tok all the other markers that folks are using now to like, see if they're change are incredibly hard
Sadie: to,
Dr. Fleck: achieve.
Sadie: [00:23:00] Yeah, 100%. Okay, so, validation, obviously, hugely effective. It sits on this, like, bounds of acceptance and change. But how do we validate? And if people want the full thing, they can read the entire book. And there's all these different ways, and, like, all these different levels, and, like, there's literally endless skills they can use.
But for people who are, like, okay, I get it, like, I should be validating. How do we do that?
Dr. Fleck: Okay, so it's first really important to understand what validation is. Because I think this term is horribly understood and often
Sadie: But it's now used even more, which is like, I love, but I hate, like I was sending you all these love is blind videos and I was like, they're just talking about how they're not being validated. Like they're literally with their significant other being like, you're not validating my experience. And I'm like, that's not something that can be validated.
You're gossiping about someone else. this isn't validation.
Yes.
Dr. Fleck: Yes. Yes. Okay, so validation is purely communicating that you are mindful You understand and you empathize with some part of another person's [00:24:00] experience and thereby accept it as valid.
Okay? So it is seeing validity in, and let me underline this, some part. Okay? I can validate your emotions without validating your thoughts or behaviors. I can validate your thoughts without validating your emotions or behavior, and vice versa. And this is really important because where people struggle with validation is in confusing it with agreement.
So we think that I can't validate You know this person's position because I don't I don't agree with it. and to that I would say you not Agree with their beliefs. right, but you can validate the emotions they have in response to those beliefs And that really is the key to validation in DBT we talk about finding the kernel of truth in someone's perspective and that is it And because we are wired to focus on what we don't like and what we don't agree [00:25:00] with, we end up losing that and missing it and giving a lot of attention to the things we don't like rather than reinforcing the things we can connect with and that can lead to connection.
Sadie: Mm So if we go through like the levels of validation because there's some very easy ways to validate someone's experiences And then just you can validate a stranger on the street And then there's others where it's like you really need to be in a relationship with someone to be able to Mind read or be to imagine what they be experiencing or think about their lived experiences and how that's impacting their emotional Vulnerability at this point.
It's like what are these different like levels hard validate someone's experience and be more and more and more effective in making them feel them
Dr. Fleck: feel safe great, question. So, I break down, I've got eight skills that, that you can use to validate someone and they They range from sort of validating to super validating.
[00:26:00] And that just depends on how much understanding, and empathy they can communicate. And so if I don't understand what someone is saying, I'm sitting across from someone whose political views deeply offend me, I'm really only going to be able to be mindful. Right And to hopefully engage in a way that is non judgmental.
I can work that muscle. Even, even if I don't understand or amplify And so, we talk about just lower levels of validation including validation skills that just focus on
mindfulness.
And for those, we've got attending and copying. And of the two, copying is my favorite. is freaking magic.
And it is what it sounds like. It is just repeating. Another person's position, the words that they said, , without adding your interpretation to it. or.
and this
Sadie: in so many sitcoms, like, there's so many good clips of This
There
Dr. Fleck: are. The other really cool one with copying is [00:27:00] body language. So when we copy the gestures, , body language of another person, we can start to empathize with their emotions.
This is through mirror neurons. We are wired to connect with people in this way. As babies, we copy our parents facial expressions as a form of connecting with them. And so we've got study after study after study that shows that simply copying someone's behavior Or subtle movements, facial expressions, affects how we relate to them, the degree to which we connect with them, and interestingly, the degree to which they like and connect with us.
So that's pretty straightforward stuff. Again, I don't have to agree or empathize with somebody in order to do that. However, in copying, I often end up arriving at more understanding and empathy.
Sadie: Yeah,
Dr. Fleck: yeah.
So that's a very basic one.[00:28:00]
Sadie: You talk about in the book how we shouldn't validate. Inauthentically. Like, we validate what we authentically can understand and be non judgmental of. Can you explain why this is? Because we could all, like, pretend to copy. We could act through these situations. We could, like, pair it. It makes sense that you feel that way.
Of course you're overwhelmed. What happens when we do that and it's not actually an authentic understanding?
Dr. Fleck: So, with the copying stuff, that one can be a little bit more contrived.
say, like, you can push yourself just Shift the
Sadie: behavior and then the thoughts and emotions
shift. Yeah,
Dr. Fleck: yeah. Where it gets tricky is when we start looking at communicating understanding. So if I was to try and like , communicate that I see the logic in what you're If I'm faking it, if I don't really see it, that does not work. People feel it. Even if they can't put their finger on it. This is like the used car person example. Like you just, [00:29:00] or politician. You get that feeling of like, this person is saying all the things I want to hear. But it doesn't feel good. , that's what will happen.
And that is why you cannot, unfortunately, fake this. Which is why you need to actually develop skills to help you do it authentically. Because in the absence of that, it's, it's hard.
Sadie: Yeah, yeah. I'm curious, validation obviously creates such change in behaviors, and the emotional experience, and our ability to connect in relationships.
Dr. Fleck: What need is it meeting? Like, we wouldn't do it, it wouldn't feel good, it wouldn't be in reinforcing if it wasn't feeling like some internal experience. So what does validation do when it comes to like that unmet need, especially in mental health contexts?
Yeah, , the social psychologist Mark Leary has a great quote.
Dr. Fleck: Let's human beings differ from animals. Not. So much in our need to affiliate, but in our need to be accepted.
Sadie: [00:30:00] And
Dr. Fleck: I think that really gets to it. Part of humanity, part of being human, is this need that we have to feel seen and heard.
This is different from feeling praised, which we love, we like feeling praised, but it's subtly different. When I feel like somebody sees me, understands me, gets me, like I'm part of their tribe, that is As satisfying to me as food in some circumstances, right? And I think in mental health situations, folks are often dealing with symptoms that most people don't understand.
Sadie: Yeah.
Dr. Fleck: And actually often judge. And so there's this sense of, I am alone with this, and there's nothing worse than being alone in your suffering.
and I think that's why, particularly with folks who have been exposed to a lot of judgment, who are struggling with things that other people don't relate to, [00:31:00] validation is so powerful.
Sadie: Yeah. And, Loneliness comes from not feeling seen and heard. It's not about who's around you, it's not about what context you're in, it's not about if you're with others.
And so I think this is another element of the experience, and we see this in how Gen Z behaves. Like, we're more vocal about our mental health experiences. We apply more labels, which is a sign of wanting to feel seen, and being able to attract people that feel and identify the same way as you. And so, I think that's another really huge element, like you're talking about, Where we don't feel seen and heard, and again, it's really hard to feel seen and heard in these larger contexts, and when you have less relationships.
So again, the agency, the belief that you can get that validation
Dr. Fleck: reliably. that, you know, on the internet, on social media platforms, the, you are reinforced for pleasing or exceeding people's expectations. Or.
Sadie: Or.
Going wildly against them and very
right. That's right.
Dr. Fleck: Right, but neither of which is you.
[00:32:00] There's a distortion, you know, you need to look different, you need to present better, need to say something radical. And so you're distorting yourself in various ways through various real and, , you know, metaphorical filters. But when you do that, the result is that you don't end up feeling seen.
Right? You end up feeling the pressure to keep changing and, and keep adapting in ways that are hard to keep up with. So again, validation is not praise. Like a thumbs up and a heart emoji, that's all praise. That says I like how you look or perform. That's different from saying I accept you independent of how you look or perform. Like
Sadie: you're
And like
you're saying, even if someone comments that word for word, it's still a variation of you and, You're not being validated for your true experience, you're being validated for that changed and altered and presented version of yourself.
Dr. Fleck: Yeah, the filter is getting reinforced, and then the need to have a [00:33:00] better or more consistent filter is the sense that you're left with, not, I'm okay as I am.
Sadie: Yeah, Why do we self invalidate? because
we're going to talk about like, why people don't just internally validate. we're social animals, we have social brains. should be something internally that we just do because it obviously helps our relationships. But I'm really curious why this be an internal function.
That is just there and working and effective because our mental health is so much better when we validate our own experiences and we create space for these emotions, you know, the subjectively the research supports it. So why do people invalidate their own experiences fight against what's just happening?
Dr. Fleck: Yeah.
, as a society, we suck. at modeling self validation. I don't know very many people who are good at validating themselves, much less doing so openly, publicly in front of their children in a way that models what that would look like. Instead, we tend to model and [00:34:00] reinforce problem solving.
Sadie: know,
Dr. Fleck: what can we do to make sure you get on the team year?
Sadie: Even if they've already self validated, though, you see the problem
solving.
Dr. Fleck: Yeah, that's right. That's right. So as, as parents, we are wired to solve our children's problems. Like, that is what we are designed to do. In so doing, however, we can often fail to validate the emotions, the thoughts that they have in reaction to those experiences.
And we're so focused on changing what hurts.
Sadie: Yeah,
That We fail to validate it and therefore the individual does not learn how to validate the hurt. They learn to focus on changing something in the environment, something about themselves, to make that feeling go away. As though the feeling is bad.
Yeah.
Sadie: Yeah. And I think this also goes back to what we talked about initially, where when you find something that alleviates the emotional experience, you're drawn to that, you do it again and again. It's reinforcing itself. And we, like you're [00:35:00] saying, Less frequently, organically, self validate, and feel that emotional pain alleviate.
And so it's not something that we're being set up for success for,
To, like, automatically come across, reinforce, and build into part of our identity.
Dr. Fleck: It's, and I can, I can just say, like, as a parent, despite having written the book on validation, I, I struggle with this. It's hard.
Like, I am routinely finding myself leaning towards problem solving when I should be validating. Or having to circle back around to validate. But I've gotta say. That having developed my own self validation practice, that has been one of the greatest contributions to my ability to validate my daughter and model self validation.
Sadie: What is the practice? You have to
Dr. Fleck: to tell
us. I know, I
know. It's in It's like an eight step process. step process Do you you need to be able to identify what you're feeling and just on the [00:36:00] emotion the emotion without reinforcing it with the narrative that
we Ascribe the emotion and that feeds it and keeps it going.
Don't do that. I just want you to feel that emotion. Feel it as intently as you can. It will, if you're just focused on feeling it, go down a bit. Once it does, you just want to travel down that chain of cause and effect to understand how you got there. Just a little, like, chain analysis if we're doing DBT. To see Why am I feeling this way?
Because emotions and thoughts, they come from somewhere. come from a valid place. You just need to see where. And once you've done that, you can then choose to, , self soothe. Take some action to respond to yourself in the same way you would respond to somebody else who is suffering. Mm Okay.
Sadie: I'm curious what you see anecdotally with patients, et cetera, from like an identity perspective, a mental health perspective, relationships even, when we chronically self invalidate.
I imagine impacts our [00:37:00] ability to validate others. Because certain, diagnoses are much more synonymous with chronic self invalidation. Like, what happens if we never create space and accept and don't judge those emotions and beliefs and thoughts and internal experiences? Yeah,
Dr. Fleck: Yeah, well this might actually pivot little bit here because I'm realizing another, another factor to consider in the why we don't.
self validate, is that not only is self validation not modeled for us, but many folks come from environments that are chronically invalidating. Yes. Okay, where what they are thinking or feeling is consistently dismissed or trivialized. And so they don't even develop a sense of whether or not their feelings are valid.
And they're looking to the environment to tell them. What they should be thinking or feeling because they don't trust their intuition.
, you know, we have a lot of research on the effects of invalidation from the environment and that is some nasty [00:38:00] stuff, okay? So that is like the common denominator across a lot of different mental health disorders. In other words, the more somebody is exposed to invalidation, the more likely they are to suffer from depression, eating disorders, even psychopathy.
All right, this is nasty, nasty stuff. There is no doubt about it. It is directly related to conditions like self harm and
suicidality. And so, what are the effects Which
one
Sadie: might even argue are in a lot of cases, I know it was for mine, an extreme attempt to get validation. Not like validation like praise, I'm in so much pain, can you see that I'm suffering?
Dr. Fleck: I'm suffering? yes, yes, yes. And that's actually a really good point because I've been seeing on social media lately, all this, , this kind of, judgmental, Discourse around attention seeking and all these people saying, oh, she's, you know, he, she, they are only saying whatever to get attention.
[00:39:00] And let's just like stop and look at what's going on there. Okay, because the person who is going to great lengths to seek attention, if they're going to the extent of hurting themselves. to get attention. There is something deeply wrong there that I don't think we should be judgmental about. That is a very desperate move.
Okay, and we don't arrive at that if it's not for a serious reason. And so, I think you're right. Oftentimes, folks start to innately aggrandize what they're experiencing so that other people can, you're kind of trying to put it in terms that they can understand because they're not responding to what you're saying otherwise.
Externalizing lot of ways. That's right.
Sadie: Yeah, yeah. And this is something that I learned from you, which is that while the emotion is always valid, it's not always justified. It's not always a proportionate response. [00:40:00] It's not always effective. And so, even though we might not validate the behavior or the belief or the thought that would lead to that outcome, the emotion itself is valid.
Again, might not be proportionate. It might not be effective. It's maybe not a path forward. But it doesn't change the emotional experience itself, we have create space for it, and non judgmentally interact with it, or nothing else ever changes.
Dr. Fleck: Yeah, I, I say that a lot, especially when I'm teaching validation, For most people, like, unless you're a psychologist, basically, don't get in the business of telling people that they don't feel
what they're telling
Sadie: Yeah
Dr. Fleck: all right? Like, do not minimize other people's emotions. It does not turn out well. That's different. Like, you don't have to reinforce their behavior.
Right? Like, somebody who is engaging in self harm, To get some sense of validation and feeling seen in their suffering, that is super not effective. Right? I'm not going to reinforce that behavior. I'm not going to give it attention. I will validate their suffering [00:41:00] outside of that, but not in connection to that, that behavior or that incident.
Sadie: it's a very important distinction and I think a lot of people that are listening to this podcast and seeking out mental health they're in that camp where we're not like low level, yeah, let's just validate. It's like, I want to shift these behaviors.
These things aren't effective. And so there's a lot of nuance there and that clarity of like, what do we validate in these extremely challenging, high suffering, very distressing moments. whether it's your own experience, or a child's, a friend,
peer, whatever it is, and, and that nuance is, is hard to master, but really important to understand.
Dr. Fleck: let me give an example of that, because I think we see this, , with self harm. And I think friends of folks who are self harming, parents, relatives, this is some really tricky space. And so what I do as a DBT therapist up front with clients who are self harming or suicidal, is to say, I care about you way too much to risk [00:42:00] reinforcing that behavior.
And to be clear, that's not to say you're doing it to get attention from me. However, attention is reinforcing. And so it could subconsciously have that effect on you. And I can't let that happen. That is my responsibility. And I care about you way too much to, to do that, or risk doing that. So if you self harm, I am not, and this is kind of a rule within DBT as a therapist, I don't speak to my clients for 24, there's a, we have the 24 hour rule, which means that if you engage in self harm, self harm or, a suicide attempt, you're not going to get attention from me for 24 hours.
If it's a, if it's a real situation and need to call in the police or EMTs, I will do that. But it's clear that they are not going get a happy sunny version of me. However, If they reach out to me right, [00:43:00] as the therapist, this is the is the therapist's role, not a parent a friends, but I, I'm willing to jump in there.
None of that is to say that I don't take their suffering seriously. On the contrary, I'm saying I take it so seriously that I don't want to do anything that might make this worse for you because already so painful.
Sadie: And if
Dr. Fleck: I feed into a cycle even and more dangerous, what good am I doing you?
So that's an example of like, I can validate the emotion without reinforcing the behavior.
Sadie: Yeah, I want to follow up on that because this is something that's so unique to DBT and again, it's that extremely distressing experience that most of us don't go through.
And so parents or friends or even yourself is put in this position, you just don't know how to navigate it. And if it's ongoing mental health challenges. Not reinforcing these things is paramount. And so in DBT, the 24 hour rule, it's something that's widely accepted. All [00:44:00] clinicians practice it. It's something that they know works.
And I think people listening, you're the one who has a peer, friend, family member, etc., who's going through this, your internal dialogue is probably like, but they're struggling so much right now. They're their lowest of points. How could I possibly withdraw from this relationship? Isn't going to it worse? And so Obviously, the role that the therapist plays is different, but I think this is something that people don't talk about in these crisis moments. And I want to get your perspective there about how you navigate that without reinforcing, but also validating the experience, because especially if it's invalidated and these crises keep happening to get validation and support and connection.
How do you even go about
Dr. Fleck: that?
Yeah, so one thing I did there is I have these conversations outside of a crisis. Okay, so that is critical. So I'm waiting. It's like
Yeah,
Sadie: Yeah
Dr. Fleck: There's a 24 hour Right. And so if this is a friend or a family member, same rules apply.
You don't want to wait for a crisis to erupt to be like, by the way, here's my line in the sand, you know, like, [00:45:00] good luck.
Sadie: Blocked.
Dr. Fleck: Yeah, that's horrible. So having some communication about that up front. The other thing for friends and family to consider is that as fabulous, loving, and supportive as you are, it's probably not as effective as that person getting the treatment they need.
And so if you are. serving that function, right? If you are the person who's absorbing a lot of that distress those moments, you could be getting in the way of them getting help. And so what I really encourage folks to say is that like, I will do whatever I can to help you get , here's Crisis lines, texting lines, like all of these other resources that can have you get the support you need in those extreme periods of crisis.
Dr. Fleck: Because I care about you, and I don't know how to manage that. Like, I don't know what I would be reinforcing or not reinforcing. Like, that is so [00:46:00] unfair to you. As your friend, as someone who loves you, the best thing I can do is support you in getting help. Not pretend to be that support. Or pretend to be that therapist when I don't know how to do that.
Sadie: so what is the line of, we are in crisis and I'm actually doing you a disservice by being the person here rather than a professional? And also, what do you do, obviously, this probably is like something you hear from your clients, you're a professional so you're not in this position directly. When they don't have a therapist, or have ongoing treatment.
They're not already in
DBT.
So it's like, I think a lot of people are in this position where they're like, They literally feel backed into a corner. I'm the friend's only resources, especially as a teen. parents don't get it. They can't talk to the teacher. The school counselor will call their family.
I'm their only lifeline. And like, I can't express enough how ineffective and not true that is. And it just, again, puts both people in such a tough spot, but like, [00:47:00] what's the line? How do you navigate? And like, now my motto is like, not my monkeys, not my problems, we're gonna cause, but like, the first time you're experiencing it, you're literally like, it's life and death, what do?
I
Dr. Fleck: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
, and I actually want to validate, there's something very true to the sense that like, if you guys have a very special connection, a very special relationship, there is something that you can do for that person that feels like nobody else can do. And that is a very sacred thing. And it would feel like a complete betrayal, or judgmental, to be like, Eh, I'm not dealing with this.
that being said, you know, if this is kind of like your first interaction with this, you have no idea that the is struggling in this way, and then they clue you into it, and you're in the middle of it. It's again,
Which is unfortunately often times how this happens. That's oftentimes. So in those situations, you just get through that first, you know, you talk them through it, whatever.
Afterward. It's like the next opportunity is this conversation about, like, I need you to get help. , I cannot, I, I will not let you suffer like this without getting help. And if the [00:48:00] person says, you know, well, so I don't have any resources. I can't go to a therapist. I can't go to a this. I would, again, like, let's look at crisis lines.
All right. Let's look at free services. And. If it's a, if it's a friend, it's like, do you want me to talk to your parents perhaps? Is there any way I can do it? But what I know for sure is that you being in this state Untreated is so unfair for you
Sadie: Yeah. yeah. And I also think what you said there, that that relationship is so special if they're going to you in that point.
And you have to be really honest with yourself and in somewhat of an objective position to ask yourself, how much do I care about this person? And if I really do care about their wellbeing and their long term mental health, you have to have that radical acceptance and honesty around. Me filling this need is doing them a disservice and there's no way to get like there's that's just the truth
Dr. Fleck: there's no way to,
get, [00:49:00] like,
which is
that, Frankly, getting mental health care sucks,
Sadie: and
Dr. Fleck: it's very difficult.
Sadie: and it's shown that like people that are Go to treatment involuntarily after disclosing suicide. They're less likely to be transparent. They have less trust for providers going forward. So So, again, negative reinforcement, lack of validation can create problems.
Dr. Fleck: Yes. So, what do we do with that? I mean, that's a very unfortunate reality, but it is the reality, and so we need to think about
Sadie: that.
Dr. Fleck: What we do know is that there are crisis lines and support systems that are free and are available.
Sadie: effective, research backed, professional trained, yeah.
Dr. Fleck: At the very least, these folks are trained in basic protocols navigating crisis, which I don't care how great of a friend you are, or how much relief your friend or, you know, partner or whatever appears to have after speaking with you, you don't know what you're doing. And that is problematic in ways that you can't even appreciate. [00:50:00] And so at the very least, at the very least, I would ask them to reach out to a crisis line. Have those numbers for them. It's, it's a process, supporting someone and finding treatment, but let that be the focus. Not serving as their Therapist, but helping them get help, helping them through that process, validating them through that process, that is the role you can and should play.
Sadie: So, obviously, these, we're talking about ways that people are searching for validation, trying to get it from other people. We talked about this at the beginning that validation is not searching for praise.
If we get back to like these day to day examples, Why should we look for validation even to like avoid these really extreme attempts to gain it and feel that acceptance and belonging? Like why is it so important that we actually seek that out instead of just like waiting for it organically to hopefully come to us?
Dr. Fleck: Like, why should we as individuals seek validation? I love this question because there's so much
Discourse!
Yeah, and there's, there's this whole, like, [00:51:00] Motto and
Sadie: male validation also is like just not like not like that's not what validation
means
Dr. Fleck: because again, that's looking for approval. Right? That's liking. That's praise. not, that's not validation. We
Sadie: actually just looking for validation from males, I'd probably still think a lot of like the male loneliness crisis They'd feel more sense of purpose.
it'd be more connected less like that'd be great like if they we were truly searching for male validation like Bye bye depressed Yes,
Dr. Fleck: exactly. Exactly.
Sadie: Like again, that's not what people are
Dr. Fleck: That's not what they're looking for. So, seeking, when I say seeking external validation, if that, like, makes you cringe or go, what?
Just, like, flip it with, , seeking acceptance or being seen and heard.
Sadie: Mm hmm
Dr. Fleck: Okay? I want you to have relationships in which you feel seen and heard. And that should, that is a reasonable thing to expect from your relationships.
Yeah You
Sadie: deserve that you should have that
Dr. Fleck: And if you don't, and if you're settling for something else, that's when things get problematic.
That said, within those [00:52:00] relationships, people aren't mind readers. And we are all, as we've discussed, as a result of our culture and upbringing, really focused on solving problems. And so within our relationships, when we come to our friends, family, partners with problems, and they try to solve them, that's understandable.
What I hope, what I want for folks is to have the language to be able say what I need in this moment is validation, not problem solving. So it's like the most like common thing that's said in my house. are you looking for validation or problem solving?
Sadie: Yeah.
Dr. Fleck: Because sometimes I do just want to know how to, you know, resolve whatever the issue is.
Sadie: Yeah.
Dr. Fleck: A lot of the time what I want is validation and I trust that the people who love me want to support me and they just may not know how in that moment and that's fine. I can ask for what I need
hmm so long as that it's clear on what that ask is.
Sadie: Yeah. We talked about, there's like low levels of validation, and they feel less [00:53:00] Great, then like these really, I feel truly seen and heard and understood, and you have to meet in the middle, because if you're not articulating your experience and sharing that, they can't validate, they're mind reading, they're guessing, it might work, it might not land, who knows.
And so I think when people that, teens and young adults especially struggle with, whether it's with their friends or their parents or people who haven't experienced mental health challenges, is getting that. lived experience validated because it's so foreign and yes, we can validate the emotions and the thoughts but being able to Articulate that so they can think wow, I didn't even realize that's what your day to day I didn't even realize that we're functioning with like completely different perspectives.
And so I'm wondering If you have any effective examples or metaphors to explain that, lived experience of really suffering with your mental health, and explaining that to someone who's, depressed, like, a day in their life.
Dr. Fleck: Yeah, so one metaphor I use and these are these are kind of extreme but it would be like like if you had your hand on a burning stove.
All you would be able [00:54:00] to think about is getting your hand off that stove. Not what you were gonna wear to the party. Not getting your math assignment done. It would be hard to focus on anything else
other how others
Sadie: are perceiving you, how you're causing stress to their life.
Dr. Fleck: Right, like you can't, you can't see clearly in that amount of pain. We can, we can understand that because we've all experienced physical pain. So I think that's a helpful Framework like it and as someone who struggled with depression and frankly cancer, I can say that the depression was in many ways so much harder than the breast cancer.
Sadie: People understood breast cancer. People empathized and reached out and were supportive in ways that I needed when I had breast cancer. When it was depression, I experienced much more judgment, much more, , folks internalizing me not showing [00:55:00] up. And that was confusing and painful.
Yeah. One thing that you talk in your book about is how, and this is one of like the biggest thing I've learned working together is the value. suffering can add to our lives, and that sense of purpose, and the gift that it can be in our ability to connect with others. And this is something that you don't want to hear when you're in the depths of it. Like, you hear it in the depths and you're like, literally, I can't, go away. it's not validating, it's not effective, it's invalidating.
Sadie: But, when you're, have these accumulated sense of mastery, your agency's back intact, maybe you're on the other side of it. There's this whole new lens that you can see the world through, and I'd love if you could speak to that, what these experiences and, , periods of suffering allow us to connect with others, validate, et cetera, like this gift that it can be.
Dr. Fleck: this is, , It's probably the most kind of important or fundamental, [00:56:00] belief that I have I don't know if it's a belief. Sure, let's call it a belief
Yeah, like a guiding
principle. almost which is that you have to make meaning out of suffering.
If you don't, it's just suffering and it was for nothing. Yeah. If you do then you grow through it, or you help others as a result of it, but it's not for nothing, and that is a choice we have to make, and I do believe that everybody can make that choice in some way, shape, or form, and, and my experience has been, You know, in, in writing this book, I was looking back, I, I speak a lot about, you know, the, my personal stuff and people have left comments being like, oh my gosh, like she, she's gone through so much, like there's like almost a sense of like pity or something and I'm like, oh my God, that is like, not
my the, point
yeah, that's not my perspective at all, [00:57:00] not, I can see how you can look at some of the, that stuff and think like, oh, that's horrible.
But, and I never thought I would say this, but I'm grateful that I struggled with depression to the extent that I did because I am able to connect with people. I understand that experience and mental health problems in a way that many other clinicians do not. And that is a freaking gift. It's a gift I wished I'd received when I was in that situation myself.
And it is a gift that I am forever grateful to be able to give to those I connect with. And I tried to do the same thing. I mean, it was what got me through cancer. Like, the day after I was diagnosed, I told my husband, we are like, going to adopt some kittens, or we're gonna go foster some kittens. Like, this is, which seemed very unrelated, cancer and kittens.
like, I just needed something that I wouldn't have other, otherwise done. Like, okay, now I'm going to do this because of the cancer, these kittens are going to have a better life. And [00:58:00] like, for me, it has to be a very one to one in that way. And that has been everything.
Sadie: Yeah. You talk about choice points with turning suffering into purpose and meaning. Going back to one of these, like, life coach, more change based, less acceptancy. The idea that pain is inevitable, suffering is avoidable, suffering is choosing to prolong pain. What do you think about that?
Because I don't love it. Yeah, I
Dr. Fleck: don't love
Sadie: it.
Dr. Fleck: Cause there's, there's also a lot to be said around like, you know, there's that, I'm sure you've heard of this, pain plus resistance equals suffering. You know, pain on its own is just pain. There's, there's truth to that, but like, let's not sugarcoat it.
Suffering sucks. Yeah. Okay, like, it, by definition, it sucks. Yeah. And that is okay. Yeah. We can accept that. You should accept that. Like, don't lie to yourself. Don't judge yourself for struggling and for suffering. Like, that's what it is. It's suffering. The choice is simply in what you do with that [00:59:00] energy, and this is going to sound like weird and metaphysical, but like, I really believe that, like, you know, in some energy is never, it's not destroyed.
Sadie: You You have to do something with that. And if you don't, that negativity will eat at you. It will break you down. It will make you smaller. But if you can direct it at something with intention, it can also heal, it can also love, it can also support in ways that you otherwise perhaps wouldn't have thought to.
Okay, three rapid fire questions for you to wrap things up. What is the hardest thing you've had to validate?
Dr. Fleck: Oh my gosh, , so two things, one in my, in my professional life as a psychologist, I would say when you're working with folks who have psychosis and they're, there's just such a different reality, like they are literally believing and seeing and hearing things that are not there.
Yeah. [01:00:00] That can be a very tricky You're like, where's the
truth in this situation to validate?
Sadie: right. And
Dr. Fleck: usually there, it's just the emotions. Like, I don't understand, like, there's not an alien invasion going on, but I can understand why you would be afraid. You're so distressed. Yes, if that's what you think.
Similarly, I would say, , you know, these last few years with folks on, on the topic of politics and folks that I love and care about who, believe things that in my opinion at times feel as radical, almost like it, it, it feels the same in my body as those moments when I'm sitting across from
Sadie: who is, trans. You're like, we are not seeing the same facts.
are
Dr. Fleck: not in the same reality. And so in those situations, the interesting thing is the the schizophrenic is actually so much easier because It's not like a direct threat to me and that is a really important thing to recognize that part of what we're responding to when we're struggling in those [01:01:00] moments to validate people in our life is the threat that they present.
There's this fear. Of, of what's going to happen to us, to our relationship, what their beliefs are going to do to the world. And that really impedes my ability to see any validity in their experience.
Sadie: And then it goes back to the oxygen mask, right? Like, you can only help others as much as you've helped yourself.
If you don't self validate, like, wow, this feels like a direct threat to me. I have emotions coming up. You can't validate theirs.
Dr. Fleck: Exactly. No, that's a really good point. Like, just noticing, okay, this is hitting me. This is scaring me. , usually what we notice is the anger.
Sadie: Yeah.
Dr. Fleck: But I,
Sadie: Anger is
secondary, what's the primary?
Yeah,
Dr. Fleck: what's, almost always anger comes down to some degree of feeling threatened or afraid. And so I try to identify pretty quickly, what am I afraid of losing here? What's at stake?
Sadie: a mistake. The second one is, what do you think Gen Z should know about validation, like, what are they lacking, if you could wave your wand and Gen Z was like, mass equipped with this insight or skill.[01:02:00]
Our mental health crisis generation, about to inherit all these problems. A lot of really interesting, unique, and invalidating messaging coming at us.
Dr. Fleck: Yeah, I want to just protect Gen Z from the, just distinguishing the need for validation. Being seen and accepted from being liked and judged positively and followed.
that, that feels good, there's a little dopamine hit there, but you cannot build your life around it. It's, it's not, you're not being seen in that. And so if, if I, if folks would understand that, and then also have the skills to validate themselves, seek validation in their relationships, that is what I would want for Gen Z.
Sadie: If people leave this conversation and episode with, like, one line that they only use that to validate for the rest of their lives, what would it be?
Dr. Fleck: You know, as opposed to one line, I think I would think of one question. When [01:03:00] someone comes to you with an issue or a situation, or even with yourself, to just pause for a second and think, do I respond with validation or problem solving?
Cause Because nine times out of ten, we tend to respond with problem solving. And nine times out of ten, People just want to feel seen and heard in whatever it is that they're experiencing. That's not to say that you don't get to, you know, a few sentences later, jump in with some suggestions. with some suggestions. Not And, yeah.
don't say But, But,, the, that validation has to be where you open. That has to be, you know, not always, but at least if you can pause and just even think in those terms, I think you will be light years more effective.
Sadie: Yeah. Well, where can people follow along, get the book, learn everything about validation, all the
Dr. Fleck: Yes. So, , my book is available wherever you get books, right. Everywhere. you can check out my website, dr caroline fleck.com, and I hope to have, you know, relatively soon I hope have a course up to kind of [01:04:00] supplement the book.
Sadie: Yeah.
Dr. Fleck: And, , solidify some of this stuff.
Sadie: Amazing. Oh, and
Dr. Fleck: I'm, I guess I'm on Yes. TikTok.
Yes. And Instagram. I
Sadie: forgot. Searching for neither praise or validation. Because it's effective and not effective in that context. Yes, yes. You can find me on Instagram and TikTok as well. Amazing. All of that will be in the show notes. Thank you for joining me. you, Sadie. This was fun.
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