216. your 20s are for healing childhood wounds feat. kelly u

Mar 30

listen to this episode:

Today's guest is Kelly Uchima—a passionate Asian American mental health advocate and wellness content creator, named Health and Wellness Influencer of the Year by the Influence Agency in 2023. As a sought-after speaker at events hosted by Meta, Samsung, VidCon, and Reese Witherspoon’s Hello Sunshine, Kelly is dedicated to breaking down mental health stigmas through her honest and vulnerable storytelling.

In this episode, we discuss:

+ what it's like to struggle with an ED at a young age

+ feeling powerless as a kid facing mental health challenges

+ working through childhood wounds as you grow older

+ stopping unhealthy coping mechanisms & addictive behaviors

+ narcissistic & codependent relationships

+ opening up to your parents about mental health

+ trying to make changes in your family dynamic as an adult

+ finding healthier relationships + friendships in your 20s

+ dealing with gut health issues + how that's connected to mental health

+ how to have a better relationship with your body

+ the power of choosing yourself

Kelly's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kellyu/

Mentioned In The Episode…

+ Kelly's TikTok

+ Kelly's Youtube

+ Therapy Tuesday

SHOP GUEST RECOMMENDATIONS: https://amzn.to/3A69GOC

About She Persisted (formerly Nevertheless, She Persisted)

After a year and a half of intensive treatment for severe depression and anxiety, 18-year-old Sadie recounts her journey by interviewing family members, professionals, and fellow teens to offer self-improvement tips, DBT education, and personal experiences. She Persisted is the reminder that someone else has been there too and your inspiration to live your life worth living.

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a note: this is an automated transcription so please ignore any accidental misspellings!

Sadie: [00:00:00] Welcome to She Persisted, the Gen Z Mental Health Podcast. I'm your host, Sadie Sutton. Let's get into it.

Kelly: What I hope most people get out of this is I have not perfectly figured it all out, but I love being on the healing journey. I think when I was younger, I always wanted things to just be finished. . But I think there's a lot of joy that I've found and connection with people because I struggle.

might sound weird, but. I, I kinda love it.

Hello. Hello you guys and welcome back to Supered. I am so excited you're here today. We have a really vulnerable conversation that touches on so many topics that I know all you guys can relate to, whether it's struggling with your mental health. At a young age and how that can be really challenging to navigate, to struggling to feel seen in your relationship with family members, and especially when you're struggling with mental health challenges. We talk about self-esteem, disordered eating, relationships, addiction, literally everything.

And this conversation, and I know you guys will absolutely adore it.

[00:01:00] Our guest today is Kelly Oshima. She is a passionate Asian American mental health advocate and wellness content creator. She has been super authentic and open about her experiences with mental health, IBS, sobriety, relationships, all of the above, and we really touch on all those areas throughout this episode.

I know you guys will relate to some aspect, if not all of this conversation. You can find Kelly on all social platforms at at Kelly, you, and without further ado, let's dive in.

Sadie: , well, thank you so much for joining me on She persisted today, Kelly, I'm so excited to have you on the show and hear all about your experience.

Experience. I think this is an episode that will resonate with a lot of listeners, especially Gen Z because we are being more open and transparent about struggling with body image and eating disorders or disordered eating. , as well as things like IBSI feel like it's my whole TikTok feed. So it's definitely something where we're in it together and I'm really excited to dive into your story and advice.

Kelly: Oh, Sadie. That's so nice. And I really love, you know, I'm actually flattered that you say [00:02:00] this is for the Gen Z because I am a millennial, but I feel like even though I'm 31, I feel like I'm in my early twenties. And as we keep talking, I think anyone listening will start to realize maybe why I feel like a lot of my twenties were really robbed from me by my experiences and truly by myself.

like my life was very miserable before. I'll say that. Yeah. I was struggling so much with eating disorders. I was in an abusive, narcissistic relationship. I was not getting along with my family. I really didn't like myself and struggled with anxiety, depression. I really clung to anything that helped me to not like myself.

I was an addict, so I'm really excited to kind of. Dive through all of that, and I think what I hope most people get out of this is I have not perfectly figured it all out, but I love being on the healing journey. I think when I was younger, I always wanted things to just be finished. Yeah. I was so tired of living [00:03:00] and suffering, but I think there's a lot of joy that I've found and connection with people because I struggle.

Yeah, it might sound weird, but. I, I kinda love it. Yeah. In weird ways.

Sadie: No, I, I completely agree. And I, we talked about this on the podcast last week, whereas when you're in the journey, the destination is really motivating because the journey is. So painful and challenging and it's, and annoying. All consuming.

Exactly. And then once you've been to the destination once, regardless of kind of like what area of life that is in the journey can be somewhat more motivating because you know, there's light on the other side. When we are, we're going through it for the first time. It is such a hopeless, demoralizing experience because even though you're told, like it gets better, things will change.

It's possible to shift these things. You don't have that lived experience. That proof doesn't exist for your, within your context and and memories. And so that can be really challenging in the moment.

Kelly: Agree.

Sadie: I [00:04:00] would love to go back to a couple of these things that you mentioned in your twenties. A lot of listeners are in that age demographic and struggling with these things, whether it's relationships. Mm-hmm. or behaviors that they wanna shift away from their own internal self-image, self-esteem.

It's something that we are really do all struggle to develop and come to terms with. In these like early adulthood years, we can kind of go through all of it or some of it, but I would love to hear the advice, the insights, the wisdom that you wish you would've had at that point in your life, , that you have learned throughout those experiences.

Kelly: It would probably be best to tackle one by one. I mean, I think this all really started for me. My struggles when I was 10 years old. And I think a lot of us realize, oh, when we're in our twenties and thirties and we're in a bad relationship or have a bad relationship with ourself, we're like, oh, this started when I was a kid.

And like, how is that possible? Yeah. And for me, I became anorexic at the age of 10, and [00:05:00] I really did think it was about the food and being made fun of for being chubby by this boy at school that I really liked. And of course, sure. As gals and as humans, we feel very insecure. About the way people perceive us.

But when I was 19, I started going to therapy for my binge eating and I told my therapist, Hey, I'm only here because I struggle with binge eating and something's wrong with me. I needed to help fix this problem. Yeah. And I think this was in our second session where she went, so what's your relationship like with your dad?

And I was so offended. I said, what does that have to do with anything girl? The to in here? Yeah. And even though I had a very. Very tenuous relationship with my dad. I felt really protective of him and my family. You know, I grew up where there was a lot of fighting between mom and dad, very chaotic. I felt like they didn't even like each other and my sister and I felt like we were the mediators and the therapists.

But my parents always said, I love you to us and each other. And we hugged and we affirmed each other. [00:06:00] So in my mind we were fine, but I knew there was a lot of toxicity underneath it all, and I didn't want her to drum all that up. Mostly because I had not even realized half of it, and I, I realized that. I only knew a certain way of life where it was numbing, numbing my feelings, tuning out, and I found every way possible to do that.

I had eating disorders, I had depression, anxiety, and then in my twenties I became really addicted to smoking weed every single day. I am sober four years sober, and I know sometimes that's a hot take in saying you're sober from smoking weed, but really you can become sober from anything. Because being addicted to something means that you are using it to not feel things to deal with things.

And you use it to deal with things 'cause you actually can't deal with the real thing. And over the years I've really tried my hardest to involve my parents in trying to explain my struggles to them. And thank God they have actually [00:07:00] been receptive, but. Yeah, there was a time where we didn't talk for a long time, for about a year, a year or two.

And I didn't wanna be associated with either of them because I felt like we were all telling each other lies. , and I think that happens a lot in families where we just want to get along with the family system, yet we have all these underlying feelings and we feel like our parents are not going to be able to deal with them, which is almost always the sad truth.

Yeah. And some advice I wish I had. You know, my therapist helped me kind of set boundaries, but I wish I knew that regardless if they did turn around or not. I had to do what I needed to do in order to make peace with them, whether it be not talking to them ever again. 'cause that would mean I'd have more peace or really getting into the dirty, yucky, screaming, yelling conversations and telling them my truths, which is what I ended up doing.

Yeah, and it's not easy and no one, you never know what the outcome's gonna be, and I think we just have to do it for ourselves. [00:08:00]

Sadie: There's two things that I wanna touch on there. One is this experience of struggling at a really young age because I think a lot of listeners and Gen Z will share this experience where we have these really big emotions.

We really, truly are struggling with big mental health challenges and the way that we're coping with those can also be really ineffective. , and add and kind of. Exacerbate those mental health challenges. And I remember when I was depressed and anxious and even though there were these external markers that like things weren't right.

Mm-hmm. I was hospitalized or struggling with self harm or had doctors being like, this gotta work on this. This isn't right, this isn't normal. There's still that like perception that you can't feel that level of distress at that age. Like if you're in elementary school or middle school, it's like.

What, like there's almost like confusion that at that age, that level of dysfunction and distress and overwhelm isn't possible. And it's crazy because I even notice it myself now where I'll see people the age that I was when I was [00:09:00] struggling with my mental health and I'm like, there's no way. Like how is that possible?

But it's a common experience for so many, and it can be even more isolating and alienating because then you're hearing like, I shouldn't feel this way and I'm wrong for having these experiences, and especially as a young adult, as a child, you're like. I haven't experienced enough that would justify these emotions or behaviors or whatever.

It's, and so I'd love to kind of hear about your experience there struggling at such a young age in such a big way, because that is something that a lot of people find to be really isolating or misunderstood and get invalidated on a large scale.

Kelly: This is one of my biggest fears when I think about having kids.

Sadie: Yeah.

Kelly: I remember going to school and I was like, how am I supposed to study and do homework and have to get good grades when my home life is miserable and I'm not eating and I'm. Starving and I'm fuzzy headed and I just wanna watch tv, and I just wanna binge eat. I'm like, I worry because I know now at an adult age, I can make sense [00:10:00] of it all.

I'm like, okay, I just have to work to make sure, like I can keep living. But that frustrates me too. Like I still feel like a kid sometimes where it's ridiculous that we have to balance all these spinning plates. So I think about my gosh. Me thinking of having to send my child to school where they have to do assignments and like, I know they need to for socialization, but just knowing that a child is responsible for so much and, and the pressure

Sadie: that's put on them or they put on themselves.

Even if you are affirming like, we love you regardless, your identity is not tied to this. It's so hard.

Kelly: Mm-hmm. Right. And for parents who are not self-aware, like my parents were back then. Even if they told me it's not your job to help me talk through issues with dad or mom, I'm hearing it either from your lips or from like the next room.

Even though you've closed it, I can hear, I can feel, and even if I don't hear it, when you come back into the room, I feel the energy has dropped, the temperature has changed, and I [00:11:00] think a lot of us humans become very hypervigilant because. We are very much absorbing the energies of our family or even kids around us, but we feel really powerless.

And I had a big sense of powerlessness as a kid, so I wanted to figure out a way to be empowered in my life. And I felt really powerful by being able to control eating, not eating, being stuck in my anxiety over exercising. There were so many ways where I was like, I need to be powerful in some kind of way.

'cause I feel very powerless.

Sadie: Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's something that is so challenging and I think increasingly is an issue of this level of autonomy, and not even like, do you have power? It's like. Do the steps that you take have an impact on the outcome? Mm-hmm. And I think as a young adult, that is something that we lack both on, like an individual level.

Like do I feel like I can get through this anxiety or stress [00:12:00] or argument? do I feel emotionally adept there? But also on like a larger scale, we have these widespread mental health issues. Mm-hmm. And the academic pressures are so extreme and there's politics and climate change. So that level of.

Hopelessness and almost like being paralyzed by inability to do anything different can be really distressing.

Kelly: I even feel now, you know I'm still in therapy. Yeah. I've been going to therapy on and off since I was 19 years old and I was just talking to my therapist about, for example, like a big struggle right now I'm dealing with is when I receive a compliment, I am terrified of receiving it and she helped me.

Realize why now, if any of you have narcissistic people in your family or if you've been in a relationship with a narcissist, which I have had both, , those types of people require unconditional love and respect and admiration and affirmation, even when they do a lot of [00:13:00] things that prove that they're not deserving of it.

Or they have betrayed you, yet you are still required to give them that love, admiration and respect. And for me, my biggest fear is once I receive it, that's like narcissistic. Like how could you believe that you are good or you are anything? And it's so interesting that even with all of this knowledge that I have, there's this underlying fear of.

I want them to stop being narcissistic, so I'm gonna show them that you don't need these compliments. It's like I'm still trying to undo things based on my behavior, but then that becomes really self-destructive. Yeah. And you think you're not a kid anymore. You're not a teenager anymore. You're not in that relationship anymore.

You should be happy. I'm in such a happy place in my life and I have a great relationship and I have great friends and I have a career that I like. So much of those roots still, , affect me. Yeah. But now I think, thank goodness I can see them for what it is. But I think that's helpful for people to know in their journey is like.

No one's got it figured out. And that's [00:14:00] really annoying. Actually. I would hate when people said that. I was like, wait, so you're telling me under all the suffering, I'm not gonna be perfect? Yeah, but there's a beauty in that because at least you can choose. You choose not to give into the coping strategies and mechanisms that are really unhealthy.

Z. Like I actually decide not to fall into pits of my addiction and binge eating and self-loathing. Yeah. I choose to go out in sun. I choose to go for a walk. I choose to call a friend. I choose to get a yummy treat and not feel bad about it. Yeah. There's choices and there there's a lot of freedom there.

Sadie: I love that you mentioned that. 'cause I posted a TikTok a couple weeks ago and mm-hmm. I was on mental health rules and one of them, I said, if you're not progressing, you're regressing, because for me mm-hmm. If I go on autopilot, it's not good. Like I autopilot.

Kelly: That's a great way. Yeah. That's awesome. Not, not like that's good, but the way you're viewing, yes.

Yeah.

Sadie: Yeah. Like if you have that background and that context and that history of coping and effectively, or speaking to [00:15:00] yourself in a really negative way, or not showing up in your relationships. Vulnerably and setting boundaries correctly. Autopilot isn't a good thing. No. And so for me, if I'm always focused on like, okay, how am I moving like the indies, bittiest baby, step in the right direction, just don't make things worse.

And then I know that I'm in the progression, not the re regression box. And everyone was like, that's such a toxic mindset. Like you just have to like be as is. And what you're saying is like you can be as is, but you're making that choice, right? And that's moving you in the right direction, which is so incredibly powerful and positive and empowering.

Kelly: But then I think the frustrating part that I get asked a lot, and I would ask people who were doing more mentally well than me. I'd be like, yes, but how? Yes. You're not telling me how you did it. Yeah. And how I did it was hitting rock bottom, and that's not what I recommend. It's not something that I think everyone should do, but I think that really is the cycle of life sometimes where.

Unless there's a consequence to the way [00:16:00] you're living your life, why change it? Yeah. Yeah. If I was able to smoke weed and not feel feelings I wasn't ready for then, I wasn't ready for it. I stayed in that abusive relationship for almost seven years because I, until I hit a certain point where it got so.

Unbelievably insane. Then I was ready to make a choice, and I truly believe for at least myself, that until I was ready to be alone, which was the scariest thing of all time, and to not have any of my numbing strategies, I couldn't do it. I wasn't strong enough. You know, there is a strength in survival, but there's a lot of strength.

In building the self-confidence to then deal with the fallout, the fallout of losing all the things that are unhealthy for you, you don't feel better. You actually feel worse because. You are now in the most uncomfortable place you've ever been, where you have no distractions that are chaotic. I'm not having a fight with my partner.

I'm not not talking to my mom. I'm not [00:17:00] binging and recovering. Now I just have to sit with myself and feel the things I've been avoiding and now go to therapy once or twice a week and end some friendships and feel like I'm a loser. And picking myself back up, that's at least how I did it. Now, how do you get out of the slumps is proving to yourself that you can live in this unknown place.

Because in the unknown is where you finally start to think, what do I want to be? How do I wanna feel? Who am I? How did I get here? You learn the lessons by not having all the distractions and all the toxicity. That that is a sucky place, but that's how you start. Yeah.

Sadie: I really like what you mentioned about, .

Why we do these things and why these, we keep these ineffective and unhealthy things in our life. And I think that was one of my favorite parts of being in therapy was like truly understanding why I was engaging in these behaviors or why these [00:18:00] relationship challenges kept showing up. And we do things for a reason, right?

Like a lot of the times it's like, I don't know why I'm making these choices. I don't know why I can't just do the thing that will make me feel better. But we're meeting a need. Like we're coping with this thing because the emotion is too distressing to tolerate. We trust ourselves to sit with it.

We don't feel. Safe being alone. And so understanding that like we're doing these things for a reason and how can you more effectively get that need met? And it really is, like you mentioned that almost like addiction model, where it's like you start with fun and then it's fun with problems and then it's just problems.

And at some point it's like the cons are outweighing the pros and you just. For whatever like line in the sand that is, you start to make that shift because it's no longer sustainable to continue with those unhealthy things in your life. Even though they've served a purpose and they've saved you or helped you or whatever it is, they helped get you through.

The cons are outweighing the pros.

Kelly: Don't get me wrong, I missed the highs. Like not just from a substance, [00:19:00] but like do you think being sober all the time is really fun? No. Do you think that being in a really peaceful, healthy relationship that's always calm is exhilarating? Not really. I had to change the way I viewed happiness and dopamine and serotonin because the way I got that was.

Us fighting really bad and hating each other and then calling each other back and making up or getting high and then not being high, and then getting high again. I don't love not having all of that adrenaline, but I do love who I am because I no longer have those things. Yeah. Like it's not the funnest life, but it is the happiest life that I have now.

Mm-hmm. and because I don't have all those highs to clinging onto, I realize, oh my gosh. Going outside and meeting up with friends and being in the sun and doing all these other activities brings so much joy. But I was not used to enjoying peaceful, connected things because when I was doing all my [00:20:00] other coping mechanisms, I could not connect with myself or other people.

So, you know, I always thought, oh, hey, I can't wait to be sober and in happy relationship and get along with my family. It is also uncomfortable to have everything you've ever wanted. Mm-hmm. You gotta keep allowing yourself to receive the positivity and like the fruits of your labor. And that's uncomfortable too.

'cause you're like, am I even deserving of this? Yeah. Where's the mess? Lemme go clean a mess up. Where is it?

Sadie: Yeah, a hundred percent. I would love to get your thoughts on being addicted to these various like relationships or behaviors or outlets because I think this is something that a lot of us struggle with and it's.

I don't know if it's more prominent in Gen Z, but it definitely seems like a more increasingly common behavior than we've seen historically, whether it's with TikTok or nicotine is outta control. Yeah. It's crazy. , we do sometimes see this with drinking or weed, like you [00:21:00] mentioned.

Mm-hmm. But I think also a lot in our relationship dynamics, other unhealthy ways of coping, maybe it's disordered eating or even just the way that we're relating to the thing. Right. A lot of it is that mentality of like, am I using this to avoid? Mm-hmm. Am I using this? To be able to tolerate the stress, otherwise I couldn't.

And so I'd kind of love to get your thoughts there on like being addicted to things that we're not chemically addicted to. Mm-hmm. But it can really derail our lives because it's an ineffective relationship.

Kelly: I would say I was, I used to be the most codependent person on this earth. I was addicted to someone loving me, and I think I had a lot of issue with not knowing if I really loved the other person, like I was so desperate for a guy to like me and affirm me and view me as special.

That's what made me like them, and that's really sad to know that I didn't even know myself enough to be able to deeply connect and my sense of self was so fragile. Like if they called me or texted me or if they. [00:22:00] Decided to stay with me if they cheated on me. If they came back after they cheated on me.

Even my first boyfriend when I was 15 years old, this kid, we, he was like a skater boy and I was so in love with him. Right. We even had the same birthday, June twenty nine, nineteen three. It was max. No, it was seriously fate. Right. And this was on like punk. Like pop music was really in, so we'd like sit with our headphones after school and like sharing music together.

And then, you know, there was a rumor going around that there was like this underclassman, like a new freshman that he had a crush on. And I was like. Nah, man. And I was so embarrassed because it turned out that everyone knew that like they were having a thing. And one day he literally just stopped talking to me.

And for the next three years of high school, he looked through me like I was dead. Like we were in the same homeroom. Oh my gosh. Every single day, the next three years. And that really set a pattern that coincided with like my family life. Yeah. My, one of my parents was codependent, one of them was narcissistic.

And for [00:23:00] me, I was just like, Hey. As long as someone likes me, that's good enough as long as they're not treating me really badly. , but then I ended up going into another relationship that was really co codependent, and then my longest one where that person was a narcissist. And because the abuse was different than what I saw, , I thought I could take it.

And I didn't think cheating was the worst thing. I didn't think that emotional manipulation was the worst thing because I thought we were in love. And for me, being in a relationship with my incredible partner now, we've been together for almost three years. He is such a safe place. He is kind, loving, so interesting, so brilliant, hardworking.

But I told my therapist a few months ago, I was like, I'm like a little bored. Yeah. And I felt really guilty because half of me has always wanted just a great person. I. Really great. And it's not that he's boring. I'm not getting any of the highs and lows and whiplash like I [00:24:00] don't get me wrong. I didn't like it, but I love it.

Yeah, there's a part of me that's not being fed, and so I have to find ways to still be engaged in this relationship and see it for what it is. And I still have to change. I still have to notice when I'm wanting something crazy to happen or me thinking that I need to have like other people to talk to.

Like I start. Thinking, oh, am I gonna start doing bad things and doing things that might hurt him? No. But do I think about it sometimes? Yes. Because there's just no chaos. Yeah. And I would never wanna hurt him. But those are those feelings that I think a lot of people feel ashamed for. And I even saying those now, it's like I only feel.

Safe enough to tell you them because I've worked through them. Yeah. And I don't do any of those things. And even telling my girlfriends, I'd be like, Hey guys, if any, you know, I talk to only ones who have been married, like in long term relationships. I say, Hey, does anyone else like think of other people?

Sometimes they're like, yeah, you just don't do it. I was like, oh, okay. Okay, cool. Yeah. But I felt so [00:25:00] guilty and. You just have to catch yourself and not saying to yourself you're in trouble. You just go, huh, that just makes sense because of the life I've lived and I need to choose differently because I like my life.

Why would I fuck it up?

Sadie: Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned something early in our discussion that I wanna circle back to because it's one of the most common things that I hear from listeners, which is that parents are not responding effectively or well to mental health challenges. Mm-hmm. And I think this. I don't know if it is more challenging when you're like at home or when you're for the first time, not at home and you have so much more autonomy and you're like, oh, I really wish that relationship was different, or I now have the emotional space to be able to really unpack that dynamic.

What are your thoughts there on not getting the response that you would want to, or not feeling seen or heard, but also really needing that support when you're struggling with your mental health in a big way.

Kelly: When I was a freshman in college, I remember calling my mom and saying, Hey, I'm really [00:26:00] struggling with depression.

Like, I'm not doing well. I really wanna see a therapist. I know I'm on your insurance. Like, would it be okay if I find one in network? And she was terrified. I mean, her voice completely changed and she started sounding really, really sad. And I understand where she was coming from because. She is Chinese.

My dad's Japanese and there's no discussion of mental health, but specifically for her and my dad. My mom had, they both had a daughter before my older sister and me, and she actually died at three months of sids. That's called Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. So she just fell. She fell asleep for a nap and just never woke up.

There's no reason for it. Even the doctor said that Asian girls are the least likely. To die from this. Yeah. So in her mind, she immediately was frozen and thought, please don't like kill yourself, basically. Mm-hmm. And I felt really bad for her, but at the same [00:27:00] time I was infuriated because she wasn't hearing me.

Yeah. Yeah. And. I just really had to decide, I'm so gonna, I'm gonna go to therapy, so at least can I get your okay to do this. But my parents were so afraid of me getting on antidepressants. They were so afraid of me unearthing things. They hated me. Addressing them and confronting them with my feelings about them, their relationship, how we were raised, how the family was.

They weren't ready for that. And I think it was, honestly, until like 10 years later, they were ready for really, really direct conversations. Yeah. , and actually my parents ended up separating as a result of that. they started to admit to themselves they had messed up in certain ways. They also forgave themselves.

And we've all now been able to function as a family where we all tell the truth. And I just felt like our family was full of lies before, just 'cause we didn't know anything different. We're just trying to get by. . And I think it's really hard when your parents don't see what you see. I think it's more than just wishing your family was healthy and [00:28:00] functional.

It's more of a feeling of, can you just believe me? Yeah, those, that's one of the hardest scenes in my life of even having been in an abusive relationship, that person and their family. I, I don't know to this day, but at least when I left, they did not believe me. They felt like I was overdramatic or causing problems by telling the truth.

And that's how my family felt too for a long time. So I really felt like I was on this lonely little island by myself, and the only person who really saw me was my therapist. And then of course, when you're surrounded by toxic people or narcissists, I often question myself, am I just narcissistic? Am I the problem?

And of course, obviously, narcissists, people don't ask themselves that, but I did also have to own that. I had a lot of parts in the toxicity, whether it was playing my specific role in the family system, like for a long time I was just like acting this way, but then I became the black sheep because I finally was [00:29:00] myself.

And I think that happened in my relationship too, where I, my, when we broke up, I said, I can't live in this. False reality you live in anymore. so the hard part is you have to stick to your gut and that will often alienate you from people, but it'll bring you to the people that are meant to be in your life.

Like you will have a much more happy, fulfilling life if you stop pretending.

Sadie: Yeah.

Kelly: Yeah.

Sadie: Having challenges with your family relationships and not feeling seen, and also not feeling like you've seen the same thing as your parents. Mm-hmm. Which is so challenging. For over a decade. I think so many people are listening can relate, but are also like, how do you be okay with that?

Because there's like some level of like, how do you do

Kelly: family dinners and holidays? Yeah. And just accept when you

Sadie: wish, you wish it was different, right? Like you're taking the steps and going to therapy and trying to have these conversations and, and shift the dynamic. You, you want something better for yourself.

Mm-hmm. And for your family. And it's not happening, , for at least for like whatever period of time. And so I'm [00:30:00] curious how you navigated that mentally. Personally, being like, oh, this really isn't where I want it to be. It's not only not where I want it to be, but it's painful to experience and probably has like ripple effects in other relationships 'cause our parents and our relationship always has that effect.

, and so I'm curious kind of how you navigated that experience for those 10 years when there wasn't that breakthrough and feeling like on the other side of those challenges.

Kelly: Well, I definitely beat a dead horse by sending many a email and many a text to both of my parents. , had tough conversations with my sister, , and a lot of it was just them feeling like, why are you bringing all this up?

Why are you causing all of these issues? And every so often I would try and then I would get the same response. And, you know, sometimes I would just sit at dinners and, and holidays and just play my part. And that is sometimes the easy way out where you're like, I don't wanna suffer and be rejected again.

, so sometimes that feels like a self-protective thing and other times you're just stewing in. Feeling [00:31:00] stifled by that. Yeah, and I think the way that I was able to navigate that was these were opportunities for me to build a relationship with myself. That's what my therapist and I often kept reiterating is you cannot change people, but this is you shaping the rest of your life and every relationship moving forward.

So even though these relationships are not where you want them to be right now, at least your being who you really are to them. As long as it feels safe. You know, not every family doesn't like scream at you back and tells you to shut up, you know? At least my parents just were kind of like, please stop being annoying and bringing things up, you know?

So I think that it's really hard, but you have to think about yourself. Which is tough because when you're just surrounded by people that means so much to you. You kind of just see yourself as a reflection of them. Mm-hmm. And it's really hard to start building your own life, especially when you're young.

I mean, when I was at teenage years, my parents were really all I had. So when they were annoyed by [00:32:00] my bad mood and didn't think that I had depression or A DHD or ADHD, or just got broken up with, they thought I was just a really moody teenager. , I believed it.

Sadie: Yeah. It's, it's really challenging and I think you haven't gone through that phase where you are able to create your own identity completely independent of your family dynamics.

And so it's really hard to have that full sense of self and form your own opinions and understand what your values are and independent of those relationships because you really just haven't had the opportunity and it makes everything from a mental health perspective so much more challenging.

Kelly: And it's a privilege to be able to no longer live at home.

Right? Yeah. Like I luckily went to college. , I was in a lot of debt, you know, paying for my own housing though, you know, after college, a lot of people, if they are able to go, they do return home. Yeah. To save money and. Luckily I went to college in a really small town, , Champaign, Illinois, so I could afford the [00:33:00] $495 rent after I graduated.

And it's crazy to think that that's how much it was. But back then, that felt like a lot to me. 'cause I still had debt from school and my housing and I knew that it was best for me to never move home, but most of my friends did and I felt envious because they could have saved so much money. Yeah. But I needed to be away from that to keep pursuing my healing, but.

When I wasn't in my toxic family dynamic with my family, I found another toxic dynamic by clinging on to my ex-boyfriend. Mm-hmm. Where we had codependency. I needed him so much, he needed me so much. We both had anxiety, we both had depression. We felt like that's kind of what bonded us because we felt like our families didn't really understand.

But what I didn't understand was that although I was feeling really loved and affirmed and cared for, because he saw me. He also was cheating on me and was very manipulative and had a lot of dark parts of him that I always chose. I chose to [00:34:00] ignore. He would tell me things that he thought and did and felt that terrified me, but I didn't.

I was not ready to lose what I needed. I needed him 'cause I didn't feel like I was anything without him. And he had told me, you know, you think anyone's ever gonna love you? You think anyone's gonna put up with you? Like, look at all I've done for you. And there was a part of me that, because I wasn't close to my family like he was all I had, I didn't have any friends either.

I was not good at socializing until probably like a, maybe like my late twenties.

Sadie: Yeah. If you were back in that position again where you were like, okay, I'm being independent. I'm choosing not to go home to that home environment, or you're going to college and you're kind of embarking on this new chapter with the context that like you'd struggled with your mental health family relationships weren't that like resource that you wish they were, how would you have approached those relationship dynamics or setting yourself up for success in that completely new context differently with everything that you know [00:35:00] now?

Kelly: Honestly, I wouldn't change anything. Yeah. Because I think anyone in these positions we're just like trying to survive. Yeah. And financially we really don't have anything. I started going to therapy because my college offered three free sessions at the counseling center. , and for anyone listening, even though you're not at college, there are free drop-in groups, whether they be virtual through Zoom, even like.

Group meetings for codependency, for addiction, I did all of that. I would go to a, , $5 drop-in group for Eaters Anonymous in Chicago. And if you couldn't afford $5, you could still go. And for a while when I couldn't afford the copays, , for my insurance, because it's still insane. Even if you have insurance.

Yeah, insurance does not mean it's free. I would just go to these free groups or do them through my phone or on Zoom. , those are the things that I encourage everyone to do because. Therapy is often such a privileged thing to recommend. And I know because when my friends would still be [00:36:00] able to go to therapy, I was like, oh, I'm going to this random group at this center on Lincoln Avenue, and I just think showing up for yourself is all you can really do.

And even that, I was like, I'm still gonna try and navigating with my family. I do wish I had been able, you know, I do have a regret. I do wish I had told them more of what was really happening, but that's always hindsight is 2020. Yeah. When you're in an unhealthy relationship. Because I was so embarrassed.

Mm-hmm. By the way, I acted how needy I was, and also because I was so needy of him, what I allowed. Yeah. Yeah. It's mortifying.

Sadie: Yeah. Yeah. And also, again, our relationships do feel like an extension of ourself. Like they kind of hold a mirror up to what we still. Our insecurities and what we might wanna work on or prove.

And so that can be like even more vulnerable than talking about your own experience to be like, this is how this is showing up and kind of manifesting in my life.

Kelly: And I was afraid too of the person. I protected the person that I [00:37:00] had built up so much to my family. My, my family loved him. Yeah. And I, I would just look like such a liar if I told them the truth.

So that's another thing I wasn't ready for, for them, for me to be questioned. I was so, I just didn't know who I was, and I kept lying to everyone, including myself, that when it all crumbled, I was like, oh God.

Sadie: Yeah.

Kelly: Yeah. Who is this person? Who am I?

Sadie: Mm-hmm. Shifting gears a little bit, you've talked a lot on your platforms about struggling with IBS.

Yeah. And I would love to get your perspective on this, having also struggled with an eating disorder, because it adds like a whole other layer to the puzzle. can make it really challenging to navigate physical health issues when that is something that's in your background. Can you speak to that a little bit?

Kelly: Yeah, so I think ever since I was like 15, I remember really struggling with. I know this isn't gonna be TMI 'cause no one cares. But I struggled so much with constipation and I remember that back then we didn't know anything. We didn't have social media and obviously water and [00:38:00] fiber, but like I wasn't, there was no Instagram to be scrolling for recommendations either.

So I would like eat prs and I'm like, these are not helping. Yeah. But I'm 15 and I would go to a gastroenterologist, , who they specialize in like gastrointestinal disorders and things like that. , they were like, I mean, you're young, you're healthy, you're fine. This happened for five years. I would have chronic constipation, have severe bloating, and my stomach would hurt so much.

My lower abdomen would hurt so much. I wouldn't go to that for days. And no one cared. No one cared. And it, and then I got, you know, a colonoscopy, which is where they checked for your colon health. They're like, it's cleared. So really what are you talking about? , and I think something that was also really frustrating is I didn't understand how connected your gut is to your mental health.

Yeah. And I didn't understand that until. I was doing mentally better and I was able to use the restroom more, but between now [00:39:00] having a more regular restroom schedule, I had to get Botox injections in my anal and rectal muscles because they thought that would help me loosen up. It's crazy and I think it all makes sense now when we think about if you've had a lot of stress, if you have a lot, if you've had a lot of trauma, if you're like a very tense person, think about what that does to your digestive system.

Yeah, yeah. And living in fight or flight, I. All these years, even since I was a kid, has changed the way that my muscles and my body work when it comes to going to the restroom. Mm-hmm. And it is so frustrating to think that there isn't a magic pill, there's not a food or a diet or the amount of water or benef fiber, or whatever you wanna call it.

Yoga. Yes, sure. Of course lifestyle plays into it so much. But the distrust that I had learned to have in my body since age 10 of having anorexia. And everything else that ensued in my life after [00:40:00] that, that caused all my constipation, including genetics, of course, and the food you eat. But really, it's so annoying how it makes so much sense how much deeper it is.

And that's frustrating. Yeah. Because you're like, so you're telling me that my brain and how I feel about myself and healing all this stuff is gonna help my stomach. Yeah. No, they're different organs. You're so annoying. Yeah. Yeah.

Sadie: It's, it's so frustrating and it's also one of these things that we don't learn about in health class, and I wish we had this awareness because it's so empowering.

Once we understand why we're doing these things, I'm like a very type, a logical person. So I like to like, oh

Kelly: my God, we're so different. I am the opposite of logic. I am a cancer through and through. For anyone who doesn't know astrology, I'm not like a big believer in them, but I do resonate. His cancers are just.

So emotional.

Sadie: I'm a Pisces, so I don't know if that fits spicy Pisces,

Kelly: is that, is that water though Water too? It's the

Sadie: last one of the year. I think it's water. I like [00:41:00] so bad at understanding

Kelly: these. That's okay. They're not important. They're not real, I think. Anyway. But whatever. Yeah. Sorry, go ahead.

Sadie: No, you're good.

, but like, I like to like understand like why these things happen, because then we can shift the behaviors, like the awareness can then lead to behavior change and. In college learning about everything that happens when we're in fight or flight. I was like, oh my God. It makes so much sense, like when you are in fight or flight, like you have that stress response and there's the whole TikTok trend of like, I choose the bear, or like, my body doesn't know the difference between a bear and opening an email regardless what the cause is.

When we have that response. Our digestion stops because your brain is like, I can't be digesting all my energy must be diverted to fighting or running away. And that's how this is not

Kelly: important's. It's

Sadie: so like literally regardless of the cause. And if you tell yourself it's fine, it doesn't matter.

I shouldn't be doing this. Your digesting is still stopped. And there's funny things too, like. We sweat so that we're more slippery if a predator tries to grab us. , and [00:42:00] whoa, like, isn't that crazy? I'm like, why aren't we told this? Like, that's fascinating. , and then we have more attention , and like ability to see things better around us because it'd be more effective to outrun and escape from a predator.

, and like there's more blood flow being directed to our extremities to run and fight my God, you're teaching

Kelly: me so much.

Sadie: And it's like, you wouldn't know that, right? No. Like you wouldn't. That's why we feel lightheaded or like tingly. And so even if you're like, it happened for one second, I was stressed, I was anxious.

And then you moved on, it still takes time for your body to recover and course correct. From literally stopping digesting your food. And we don't learn about this in health class, but it's something that I think is so relevant in a way that mental health shows up for so many of us.

Kelly: I joke with so many of my other girlfriends who do struggle with like constipation.

It's such a common thing. Yeah. But unless I wake up and get to like chill, drink my water, have my matcha or my coffee, and go to the bathroom, if, if I have to wake up and do something, I'm [00:43:00] constipated for the next day. Yeah. Like you have to wake up for a meeting. My body, just my head feels dissociated from my.

The rest of my body. And it's very frustrating because then when you're constipated, you're in a really bad mood. Yeah. And you feel less capable of the day. It affects your mental health so much. So it's, it's really annoying how if your mental health's not great, your gut's not great, your gut's not great, your mental health isn't great.

Yeah. And I, I realize that that just means that I really have to work on like self-soothing more and. Breathing, but girl, like sometimes it's like I can't change my body though. Yeah. I don't know what, I don't know how to get out of fight or flight, honestly. Even when my boyfriend will say, guess what? I go, oh my God.

No, I'm always, he says, you always expect the worst. ,

Sadie: It's a lived experience though, like you learned to, to expect the worst.

Kelly: Yeah. There's no good after. Guess what?

Sadie: It's so true. [00:44:00]

Kelly: I'm like, oh no. Oh my

Sadie: goodness. , I wanted to also get your thoughts on like the body image, body acceptance, body positivity, various movements.

'cause I do think we're seeing a shift in all of these that's been very prominent, I think for both of us. Like growing up and going from like more diet culture to then it was like. Body positivity, then we had body acceptance. Then there's body neutrality. Like there's all these different ways that as a society we're approaching this conversation.

And I would love to get your thoughts because I think it's really nuanced, especially when it's not just like, oh, we'd like to have a better relationship with my body, but it's like, no, you've actively struggled and had that negative relationship. , and that's what you revert to.

Kelly: Oh, well right now it's 2025 and the trend is back to, you know, being tiny and thin, and I've talked to my girlfriends about this, that it affects me.

Yeah, for sure. , one because obviously like I do post things online and you [00:45:00] know, it's my face or. Things like that. And I just think with social media, we look at other people and then when we like go and take a selfie of ourselves, we're so used to looking at a screen and seeing others that we take it, we're like, Hmm, I didn't think I was gonna look like that.

We expect a certain, and even photos,

Sadie: like that's not what we look like. Like the iPhone lens is not what you look like in real life. So like we're so distorted.

Kelly: No, exactly. And. I think that anyone who has really struggled with body dysmorphia knows this or gets to a point where you allow yourself to have those feelings because they're there.

And when I have them, I do talk to either my girlfriend, my partner, my boyfriend, stone, or my therapist, because I have to get it out. Yeah. , because my desire. Is not to give in to them. And what I mean by not given to them is I don't wanna start eating less. I don't wanna start forcing myself to work out more.[00:46:00]

I don't wanna be tempted to do anything that causes me to give in disordered behaviors, but deep down what I like to, yes, that is why I vocalize them because when I was 10 years old, it was like I was playing a game. The smaller I became, the bonier I became, the smaller the number was. I felt very. Proud of that.

And my binge eating was such a failure because I have worked really hard to stop feeling like the feeling of fullness was a failure. I felt like fullness meant I did something bad. I. And I remember the other day, one of my girlfriends was like, oh, you know what the best feeling is, is after a meal you just can lay and you're so full.

And I was like, whoa. That's so wild that you say that because I'm still working on that. Like, girl, I love eating. Mm-hmm. But feeling full and having to unbutton my pants, although physically relieving, there's something in my heart and in my chest that goes, what did I do? And when that voice comes [00:47:00] up, I talk to it.

I go, you're good. It's all right. So for me, the . Feelings don't go away and the desires don't go away. But my instincts have changed. Yeah. Yeah. I don't run and do anything about it. I go, good, good for you for not falling into that. Like, we're fine. We've changed. We're fine. I.

Sadie: Yeah. It goes back to that, that choice point that we all have.

Like you can always make the decision to continue down the path yes. And make it worse and be ineffective. You can also choose to just sit with it and do nothing or sit with it and maybe like make a more positive choice and you always have that option, which is really empowering.

Kelly: That's also the, a lot of, a lot of people, especially my girlfriends.

Will come to me for advice when it comes to dating. Mm-hmm. You know, they're like, is this the right guy? Or like, I think this is kind of a red flag, and of course I'll have my opinion. You know? I think that's what me as a girlfriend, I do pride myself in being honest, but I never tell them what to do because obviously I always chose wrong before and I would say, oh my God, you can totally choose date them [00:48:00] for the next seven years.

I totally support that because I did that. Or you could not because you don't think this is a good thing, but like you can choose and there's really no wrong because there's a lot of life experience that goes with choosing the wrong thing too. And it's not objectively wrong, but it's not gonna push you into the life that you know you want for yourself.

And I think that happens so much with dating where we ask for advice, but like, we are not gonna do the thing that's healthy and that's okay. Yeah. Come on. It's a story As long as it's not like really dangerous. You know what I mean? Yes. But like, that's why I have stories. That's even why I'm on a podcast, right?

Like if I hadn't made a lot of, I hadn't made a lot of really unhealthy decisions, I have nothing to share, and I don't think that's a good thing. But that's how I choose to look at it. At the end of, all of it,

Sadie: yeah. But also our ability to like relate and empathize with each other's experiences and understand other suffering.

Like we wouldn't be able to do that if we hadn't had those moments. And that's so [00:49:00] empowering as well.

Kelly: It's my favorite thing, like when I meet people who have gone through stuff and have chosen themselves, and there's a difference between trauma bonding and genuinely connecting with people who have lived experience and are encouraging you to, and inspiring you to keep moving forward.

Those are the coolest friendships. I'm really grateful to keep meeting like people like you and others who. Have been through some shit because it's like, I know you see me

Sadie: and I like it. Yeah, and you also know that going to them for support, you're gonna get that response. Hope not always, but like Yeah, not always.

You'll hopefully hit that wall of like, no, we don't feel that way. We don't do that thing. Absolutely not. Hopely. You'll get a little bit more grace because they've been there too.

Kelly: That's right.

Sadie: If people wanna continue the conversation and continue to hear about your journey, your experiences, everything happening, where can they do that?

Kelly: You can all find me if you just type in Kelly U, the letter U to like any web browser, Instagram, TikTok. [00:50:00] I am launching a new podcast coming soon, as you can see. Check my channel, , all my socials for that. But I also do have a podcast that I used to do. It's called Therapy Thursday with Kelly U where I talk a lot about the things we talked about here.

, and yeah, there was a lot of great things coming that you have to follow me to see it. And I just hope that you feel seen and heard when you see my content. And all I ever want is for when people see things that I post for them to be able to reflect on themselves and feel more connected to themselves.

You know, yes, I'm the one posting, but I really hope that. You feel more connected to you at the end of it all. Yeah, and there's something so cool where when you find a post that speaks to your experience and there's so many likes and so many comments, you're like, oh my God, people get that. Like that's one of the best parts about social media that we haven't had in the past.

Sadie: Be like, there's thousands of people that have had this exact same thought. It's really, really cool. I think something that recently reminded me of that was. , I share a lot about my past relationship with my ex, but I've protected him a lot. Yeah. I never get into the really bad [00:51:00] things or the details because frankly I don't think that they're even appropriate for social media, you know?

Kelly: Mm-hmm. It's like, ugh. And I recently shared something where I said all these statements that he had actually said to me, which are absolutely insane, and his aunt had actually comment on it, and she said. Maybe it's time to move on and let go or let go and move on. Mm-hmm. And that really messed me up for a few days.

And I was sitting at this exact same desk, I'm talking to you right now. And sometimes I just make video journals for myself to process it. 'cause sometimes I feel like thinking versus talking out loud. I process it better when I pretend I'm talking to someone else. Totally. Yeah. So I just set the camera up.

I looked, I was just wearing a hoodie and glasses and I was like telling, talking about happened, and I was like so embarrassed that it affected me a lot. But I also in the video was saying to myself, I'm not, not over it, but this is also just a part of healing. And so much like I, I do [00:52:00] struggle with this and I showed it to my friend.

And I was like, that's so embarrassing that I'm not gonna post that. Like no one will care. It'll seem really like self absorbent and the amount of responses that I got to that video, it was heartbreaking to know that so many people have been invalidated when someone says, you just move on and like, go.

Yeah. Or they have been bullied online by their ex or their ex's family. And that was shocking actually, because me, I think I'm. Not unique, but I felt like this is probably just me. Mm-hmm. Where I'm feeling really embarrassed that the family's calling me out and saying, what's wrong with you? Like he's totally moved on.

You're a loser. Yeah. And I think the more we do that, not even sharing it online, just to someone else like helps you let it go a bit and feel affirmed. Yeah.

Sadie: Yeah, like this. The other thing about like mental health that I'm like, it's so frustrating because our emotions tell us to do the opposite of what's effective.

And she tell Oh God, to [00:53:00] recall. And so, so it's like if only you do like literally the exact opposite of what your brain is body is telling you to do, the emotion will shift. And whether that's. To yourself, whether that's to the camera, maybe it's a journal, maybe it's a friend, family member, therapist. When that shame comes up, that's the best thing you can do.

And it's so effective in helping you move through the experience because when we avoid it, it just amplifies and becomes even more overwhelming. And then we do these behaviors that aren't ineffective and all the things,

Kelly: and, and for anyone listening, there's no shame in doing all the behaviors. Yeah. Do what you need to do until you are ready to change.

I was not ready to change until I was like 26. That's when I got outta that relationship. That's when I decided to get sober. , and I'd been struggling since like 15 years old, so there's no timeline either. If you're older than me, you'll know when you're ready and if you're not ready, find someone to push you to get ready.

Sadie: Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. Well, this was such a great [00:54:00] conversation. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank

Kelly: you, Sadie.

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