197. Life After The Program feat. Netflix Director & TTI Survivor Katherine Kubler

Aug 1

listen to this episode:

Today's guest is Katherine Kubler— a Los Angeles-based writer, director, and editor. She recently directed and executive produced the Netflix original documentary series The Program: Cons, Cults, and Kidnapping, which exposes the corruption and abuse of the troubled teen industry.

In this episode, we discuss:

+ Katherine's firsthand experience in the troubled teen industry (TTI) & how it led to her creating The Program

+ My experience in the TTI & what it's like to unpack it years later

+ How survivors can struggle to process their experiences in these programs

+ Red flags that a treatment program is part of the TTI

+ If there's any evidence that TTI programs do help teens & the overall lack of research out there on TTI programs

+ What Katherine has learned about the TTI since the documentary has come out

+ The fake high school diplomas that many programs give out

+ Advice for parents & teens considering residential treatment programs

+ so much more!

Katherine's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/katherinekubler

Mentioned In The Episode…

+ The Program

+ Help At Any Cost

+ She Persisted Ep. 196

+ Katherine's website

SHOP GUEST RECOMMENDATIONS: https://amzn.to/3A69GOC

About She Persisted (formerly Nevertheless, She Persisted)

After a year and a half of intensive treatment for severe depression and anxiety, 18-year-old Sadie recounts her journey by interviewing family members, professionals, and fellow teens to offer self-improvement tips, DBT education, and personal experiences. She Persisted is the reminder that someone else has been there too and your inspiration to live your life worth living.

a note: this is an automated transcription so please ignore any accidental misspellings!

Sadie: Welcome to She Persisted. I'm your host, Sadie Sutton, a 19 year old from the Bay Area studying psychology at the University of Penn. She Persisted is the Teen Mental Health Podcast made for teenagers by a teen. In each episode, I'll bring you authentic, accessible, and relatable conversations about every aspect of mental wellness.

You can expect evidence-based, teen approved resources, coping skills, including lots of D B T insights and education in. Each piece of content you consume, she persisted, Offers you a safe space to feel validated and understood in your struggle, while encouraging you to take ownership of your journey and build your life worth living.

So let's dive in this week on She persisted.

, this industry, it's main business is just defrauding parents into thinking that they are something that they're not. And a lot of parents look at these glossy marketing materials and it looks great.

Katherine: And they think that just because it exists, that there is some regulatory body, but there isn't. No. fall under all these loopholes. And you have a lot of unqualified, unlicensed, unregulated people being like, I'm gonna do this crazy therapy, pay me all this money and do it. And there's no one vetting that stuff to see, is this actually evidence based? Does this help or does this hurt?

Sadie: Hello, hello, and welcome back to She Persisted. We are in episode two out of three of our mini series on the Troubled Teen Industry. This is a super exciting episode because we have Catherine Kubler on the podcast. If you are at all familiar with the Troubled Teen Industry, I am sure you've heard her name.

She is the director of the program, which is a Netflix documentary about the TTI, and it was just so incredibly done. was in the top charts. It was really a very healing experience as a survivor to watch, and so I highly recommend you watch that if you either went to a program or you just want to learn more about the industry because she just did such an incredible job explaining its leadership and how expansive it She really explained how WASP, the Worldwide Association of Specialty Programs, came to exist, and how it became so problematic, and how little evidence there is backing the quote unquote treatment that they were doing in these programs. And so in addition to being the director and a survivor of Ivy Ridge, she's also a writer and producer, and I have all of her information in the show notes if you want to check her out.

But in this episode, we talk about how she decided to create the program and create a documentary about her experiences and the Troubled Teen Industry as a whole. We talk about what a lot of these programs look like, red flags that people can be aware of.

If there is any evidence supporting these types of interventions, spoiler alert, there is not. And then we also talk about the experiences of Survivor, Because she not only speaks to her own lived experiences so much in the documentary, but she also featured a lot of her peers and friends who also went to Ivy Ridge, and it was really, really impactful to hear them articulate what it was like after leaving the program and reintegrating with real life and coming to terms with what they experienced.

So, This was a really incredible interview. I'm so grateful that Catherine made the time. I know you guys are gonna love this one and next week you guys get to hear from me about my experiences and then we're back to regular programming. So, I really hope you enjoy this. As always, information is in the show notes.

If you want to learn more about Catherine, make sure to leave a review, subscribe for more, let me know on social media what you think. And with that, let's dive in

Well, to get things started, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast, I was so excited when I heard on social media that there was a Trouble Teen documentary coming to Netflix, and when I watched it, it was just such a healing experience to be able to see how you guys depicted the healing process and Everything that you showed about kind of unraveling these memories and experiences you had and it was also so informative And so I watched it with my mom and so for anyone that wasn't totally aware of like How extensive the trouble teen industry is or how much is going on there?

you guys just did a phenomenal job So That is how I, , kind of became aware of you, but I'm really excited to have you on and talk about everything that has come of the documentary and next steps and all the things. So thank you for being with me here today.

Katherine: Yeah, of course. Thank you for having me. I always appreciate an opportunity to discuss it more.

Sadie: Of course. Well, to get things started, I'd kind of love to hear your background and why you decided to actually make the documentary. I think this is something that a lot of survivors struggle with is speaking out and sharing their story and also how much to share. And you did like the most effective storytelling ever with a very top charting Netflix documentary.

So I'm really curious what you think. What that process was like. Obviously, they've since closed, but a lot of these people just circulate around different programs. And you talked about, like, the larger overarching structure that's still really involved in today's programs. So, what was that process like?

How did you decide to start the documentary and do that on such a, such a large scale? Because for a lot of people, there's still a lot of fear there.

Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. , Well, I mean, I was in the program myself. So I had this firsthand experience and I had no idea that these places existed until I was sent to one.

I was inside one. I didn't even know prior to being sent until I was actually there. And while I was there, I was like, well, this is insane. Like I didn't know places like this could exist. And, , I was, if you can see in the documentary from my home video archive, I was filming everything from a very young age.

I was obsessed with home videos and always filmmaking all the time. So when I was in the program, I was like, well, this is insane. I need to make a documentary about this. Like, this is crazy. So while I was there, I was like, as soon as I get out, I'm going to expose these places. , yeah, so I got out of the program and immediately started looking for any resources to kind of help explain what had happened to me.

And there really wasn't anything out there at the time. , and the internet, like social media was just becoming a thing. , like MySpace , didn't exist before I got in the program. And when I got out, that's how we all started finding each other afterwards, , because we weren't allowed to share contact information when we were in the program.

And, then I found Maya Salovitz's book, Help at Any Cost, How the Troubled Teen Industry Consparents and Hurts Kids. And it blew my mind. It was amazing. She was the first person to really, , break open the story and show the connections with W. A. S. P. and the whole troubled teen industry as a whole, and it was great.

So I actually first interviewed Maya, and you can see some of my early interviews with her, back in 2010. , and she kind of like set me down the path of exploring and investigating this. So I'm really grateful for the groundwork she laid, into this. And so, , like I said, I got out of the program in, in 2005, and then 2006 to 2010, I was in film school, , out in LA.

And as soon as I graduated, I was like, all right, time to start making a documentary. And I was pretty naive about, , how difficult it would be to make a documentary. Cause I was like, oh, it's no problem. Like, I'll just do it and it'll be easy. , but there are lots of challenges with trying to make a documentary on this kind of thing.

And one of the big, obstacles is trying to get any, , visual media of it. Because, , they don't let you film inside these places. They're very secretive. , and so I was doing things like, Going undercover, I got some hidden cameras and snuck into like a WASP seminar for parents back in 2010. And I was going all around the country, finding people to talk to me or trying to find experts.

And there weren't that many experts besides like Maya and Phil and you know, a couple others at the time. So fast forward up to 2020. After like a decade of, , kind of exploring this industry, , because, sorry, I'm talking over myself again, but, , No,

Sadie: I love it.

Katherine: When, like, because when I got out, I thought that it was just Ivy Ridge, or Wasp, you know, to the extent I knew about it.

But, very quickly I found out that my experience was just the tip of the iceberg. That this was like a whole huge industry that had been going on for decades, and there was so much more. And I found that out because when I was trying to find anything online, I would find forums, but they seemed to be talking about other programs, which I would later find would be about Straight Incorporated, or Seedoo, or these other programs.

, so then I was like, well this is huge, let me documentary on this whole industry. Fast forward to 2020, after a decade of looking into, , this whole industry and, piecing things together, I come to find that it was my very own program that was abandoned and left all the evidence behind. So now all of a sudden, you know, always having this obstacle of like, well, what am I going to show?

All of a sudden we had access to the whole building And this incredible set piece to just walk through and see everything and we had all the evidence It was insane finding this like time capsule and all these documents that were You know therapy notes, our birth certificate social security cards medical records , like all the documentation of everything that went down there that we never thought anyone would believe us about and then even security footage, so Anyway, that's a long answer, but , there you go.

Sadie: No, it's really incredible, and even just subjectively, trying to piece together the like, survivor's experience, it's really hard, and I'd love to get your thoughts on this as well, because I think what I found is that I left, I was still under 18, and I think there was a lot of like, compartmentalization that happened, and some fear, until I turned 18.

And then it was like, okay, I can't be sent back, and there was really more, mental willingness to explore what had happened, and what my feelings were. But after I left, there was still that, like, okay, they could come, not that they would, hopefully, but like, it was still technically a possibility that I could go back to a program at any day.

And so, So, that I think is a very daunting experience for people in those first couple of days, and then as time goes on, you, the human memory is horrible, we're so bad at remembering things, but it's also this element of everything has been normalized, and you guys spoke to this in the documentary that depending on how girls, and of course Ivy Ridge was co ed and had different sides, it's But how girls comply with the program really impacts, their emotions towards things, and I think also the memories as well, because I was one of, like, the put your head down, I was a people pleaser, like, it was just, that was kind of how I got through for 14 months, and so, When I left, everything had been normalized for a year.

And like, we don't remember what we ate for lunch three years ago. And so it was kind of that same idea where like, everything in my mind had been normalized and cataloged away and not been like, oh that was weird or not right or maybe not okay. And so trying to unpack these things and look back and be like, okay, was this right?

Was this not right? How do I actually feel about this without my ability to talk to my family or go home being in question? That was a really Scary and weird piece to navigate and so i'm curious for you guys. You did such a good job articulating Not only your experience is there, but then your experience is after you left.

And I'm wondering how you went through that process, knowing that you probably did normalize a lot of things, but you like, don't think about that, I don't want to get in trouble, that can't happen. And then the time piece is also huge.

Katherine: Yeah. , yeah. So a few things there. Well, first back to what you said about, , you know, it just being hard to even speak about for awhile because there is so much shame and humiliation about it.

No one really wants to talk about it. , and I think that's how most kids are when they get out of the program. They just want to forget about it and not talk about it again. , For me, however, I just refused to normalize what happened I was just like no you're not going to convince me that this is okay This is just insane.

And I don't know what it was that I was just like I refuse to accept this as normal. But Most other people like my friends alexa and molly, , I had first reached out to them back in 2010 when I was trying to make this asking them like, Hey, could I interview for the documentary? And they're both like, Oh, sure, maybe.

And then kind of like blew me off. They didn't really that. A lot of people didn't really want to talk about it. All wanted to kind of forget about that chapter of our lives and just move on because it's too insane of a thing. You just kind of have to like pretend it never happened. But you know, the body keeps the score and you can't really forget that.

Yeah. , But yeah, and it's also because the program like tells you and your parents are telling you that what happened to you is normal and that you deserved it and I was like, I don't think so. And it really wasn't until I read Maya's book that it was the first time that an adult and an authority figure said, hey, what happened to you was not right.

And here's why and just explain it and I was like, yes, like I knew it was wrong But I didn't have the vocabulary or education to understand why it was abusive But I was like, this is just not right. And so now, , you know, maya kind of laid out that framework, to Literally reframe the experience that we had because you're being abused you're being told you deserve this and this is okay and you have to go back and then You Reframe that whole experience and see it through a different lens.

And once you, , see it that way, that really helps, , with the healing process of understanding it. , and then to speak to, , sorry, I had

Sadie: the most long winded question.

Katherine: No, no, it's good. It's all important stuff to talk about. Yeah. As far as then getting my friends to eventually talk about it, , , When word started getting out that the building was abandoned and all our files are in there, people started making trips back and getting it.

we were all like, all right, let's, , talk about it. So we have a group chat with all my friends that are in the documentary, all my friends from Ivy Ridge. And as things are coming together, it's like, all right, I'm going to pick up the doc again. , let's all, , talk about how we're going to do this or like what it's going to be.

, And so we would have regular Zoom meetings, and at first I think it was like every Sunday, , at the start of it we were doing it, and they'd be like hours long, because we'd all just, we were all like collectively having mental breakdowns, , with all of this stuff thrown back into our lives again, finding all our files and going through it.

Sadie: And you remember so many things you've forgotten.

Katherine: Yeah, it was this like group therapy session where we're all and because we remembered each other from the program So we were able to kind of fill in different parts of people's memories be like, do you remember this or that? And this is why I love Documentaries or just documentation for victims of psychological abuse when you're Gaslit so much.

It is so nice to To have a record or a document that proves you're not crazy. , and all of a sudden we had so much of that. , and it was incredible. So, Through these hours long zoom sessions of all of us just kind of like, you know, , retelling all our memories and validating filling in different sides of the story and then digging through the files and finding things to corroborate it.

It really, , I mean, it was amazing. It was so incredible to have that treasure trove of information to back everything up that we knew had happened. , and it's, it's also crazy how many things. We just completely forget and then you're like, wow, I blocked that out completely. , so yeah

Sadie: Yeah,

Katherine: no,

Sadie: I had the yeah the same experience and I think Like having that adult figure that tells you okay, it's okay how you feel what you experienced wasn't normal and let's unpack that for me That was I had a therapist after the trouble teen industry, which I got really lucky to be sandwiched from both sides I went from a very evidence based residential program at McLean which is Harvard affiliated and they do DBT Which like we know is so much evidence and talk to my parents multiple times a day.

They flew every week So like world of a difference and then 14 months at a therapeutic boarding school and then afterwards I did outpatient with a really incredible DBT therapist again and so She was one of the people that I went to, she, I don't even know what version of me she, like, received after I graduated the Troll Teen Industry and was, had, I read my graduation speech the other day and I was like, what am I apologizing for here?

Like, what is happening? But anyways, , she was the one that was like, yeah, that's not right, and that's not normal, and these are the words to describe these things, like, even the way you're speaking about it now, clearly that wasn't right. And so, to have that validation from an adult figure, which is so much more challenging in the troubled teen industry for survivors, because a lot of the times, parents are either believing the program, or they were also, like, there's also that kind of, moral battle as well.

And so, finding someone that placates your emotions, but not in like a pitying way, but being like that really wasn't right. And if we look at all the evidence and all the information, that's not supposed to happen to you. And I think that is so incredibly important in the healing process, and thanks to you, there's now a really incredible documentary that does that in addition to the books and people's podcasts are out there.

, but I completely agree that that's just such an important part of that healing process. Recovering part of the, part of the process of waking up.

Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. It was funny. There were so many times when we were Filming especially like early on when I was trying to get all my friends just comfortable in front of the camera We all we all met, up together in Bend, Oregon And , it was the first time we were all really together since the program and I just brought my camera guy Pete I was like, look, I don't know if we're gonna film anything But like you should be there because we're all just getting it.

We should just film it And so we're all just sitting there and we're telling stories and remembering stuff and then, , At different points we turn to Pete and we're like, Is this bad? Does this sound bad? He's like, yeah, no, like, this is crazy. Or we'd be talking and then he'd stop and he'd be like, wait, wait, wait, hold up a second.

He's like, this is the first time I'm hearing about a riot? And we're like, oh yeah, yeah, the riot. Of course. Or just, there were just different things that were just so normalized to us or whatever that, So often we go to people like, is this bad or are we being dramatic? Like, I don't know. Cause it, , so it's, it's really good to get that validation from other people.

Cause again, this is normalized for us. And so you have to get a level set and just be like, okay, what, what is actually okay. , and so I hope that, , this documentary though, I'm sure, , is retraumatizing for a lot of survivors to see it at the very least provides some validation. about it, , and also hopefully it is used as a tool so that people don't have to try to explain it again themselves.

That is the hardest thing, is how do you explain this to other people without just like, word vomiting and like, trauma dumping on them? It just sounds crazy. So it's so nice to now just be like, just watch the Netflix documentary and explain it better.

Sadie: No, it's, it's huge and I think, I'm excited to kind of later on ask like, what you think about all the increased press and how that's going to impact things, but I definitely wanted to ask you about kind of how WASP has evolved since Ivy Ridge.

Like obviously the industry is kind of adjusting and it's kind of concentrating in different programs than it did before. There's like more wilderness programs that are now shutting down. Still a lot of therapeutic boarding schools. They're moving away from behavior modification. still a lot of the same people on the same program models and no regulation and reform.

And so I'm sure as you were like going through and doing the research, you were coming across like how things had changed since Ivy Ridge or how people that were originally involved in WASP are now involved in different programs today. And so I'm curious what your thoughts are when you look at today's Troubled teen industry, and if you're still seeing a lot of those patterns, if there's a new WASP that has emerged, any kind of thoughts on that on today's industry?

Katherine: Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, , like I said in the doc, this industry is like whack a mole. It's like one, once one program gets bad press and gets shut down, a new one just opens up again. And so, I always hesitate to call out specific names of programs because they'll just change their name.

Or even just to say, is this Wasp? Because now everyone is trying to say, oh we're not Wasp. We're not Wasp, we're Netsap. We left Wasp, yeah. And it's just like, okay, cool. So once whatever name gets enough bad press, everyone distances themselves from it. So for me, instead of calling out specific names of programs, it's more important to point out, , the methodology.

Of how these places work. So, , no matter what name it's currently going by, you know what red flags to look out for. , so, , yeah, there's a, a few things with that is, , one, just any program that restricts contact between the family is, that's just, . Shouldn't happen. That's a big red flag. , kids should be able to access a landline at the very least to call Child Protective Services, , to have a line to CPS if anything's going on to contact the police.

We did not have that ability. Like, there was no one we could call to be like, help, I'm being abused, save me. police, come to the welfare check. We just couldn't do that. So, , kids need to have access to, , a phone to contact their family. Also the just long term residential treatment in general is rarely necessary or recommended, , and if it is it's in extreme circumstances.

So if a program is just blanket recommending, , admission to students without even evaluation in person or all sorts of stuff, that's a big red flag. Like Ivy Ridge took me in without even seeing me in person is off the bat trying to get people to sign year long contracts. that's a big red flag.

And you know, this industry exists because they are filling a market that is needed. There are families in crisis that are like, what do we do? We, we need something there and there are good options out there, but there's not going to be one easy answer. There's not going to be this like, , one stop shop, one size fits all.

It's going to be different for each kid and each situation. And usually the best treatment is stuff that takes space within their community that keeps them in their community, in their home and learn how to function within their existing environment. , as far as current programs go, cause yes, like WASP, it doesn't exist anymore, but the WASP methodology very much does exist.

, I mean, I do think WASP. Wasp really was kind of like the worst

Sadie: 100%.

Katherine: like with Wasp, it was, Maya actually said it really well, she was like, the abuse is the treatment. It literally, that was it. Whereas other programs, it's like, oh, there's treatment and abuse happens. With Wasp, it was literally like, no, the, also abusing is the treatment.

Yeah. That's what it is. So, yes, there are current programs, like, you know, I, , I called out Eagle Ranch Academy and the documentary and they quickly put up on their website, we're not WASP just because we're in the same building as them. It's like, yeah, I know, we, we didn't say you were a WASP. We said WASP doesn't exist anymore.

Yeah. But look what they are doing. That is those red flags that I had called out. , again, it's. to a T, the same methodology of these WASP programs of long term residential treatment for a wide variety of behavioral issues in teenagers, and they restrict communication. Also, we happened to stumble upon, which is insane, I still can't believe this happened, that we stumbled upon a seminar that they were running out of the hotel I was staying at in St.

George. That was

Sadie: crazy.

Katherine: That was insane. I remember turning to Molly. I was like, no, one's going to believe this. This is crazy. What a crazy coincidence.

Sadie: The karma. It's come back around.

Katherine: Because there was always this question. like, after all these years later, I was like, well, I don't think they're doing it the way, Wasp isn't around anymore.

They're not doing the seminars. Like maybe these programs exist, but they're not doing the same. But to find that the seminars are going on and it's the exact same posters and language and all the stuff that we had in our seminars, I'm like, Oh my gosh. I can't believe that it's. It's still going on exactly this way.

, , so yeah, , the other thing is, yeah, I will take any opportunity I can to call out NATSAP. the Association of Therapeutic Schools and Programs. , is what a lot of people refer to as the new WASP. , they will deny that, for sure. , but , they present themselves to be this regulatory body, which they are not.

Katherine: They're a member paid organization and they'll give programs this seal to put on their website saying, Hey, we're an official net set program. So you think, oh, okay, cool. They're, they have a little badge. This sounds official. this is part of the thing. So it must be good. And I think, this industry, it's main business is just defrauding parents into thinking that they are something that they're not. And a lot of parents look at these glossy marketing materials and it looks great. It seems awesome. You see a knapsack seal. You see all this stuff. You're like, well, yeah, this sounds great.

And they think that just because it exists, that there is some regulatory body, but there isn't. No. fall under all these loopholes. They're not technically a school, so they don't fall under the Department of Education. They're , not technically, , a healthcare facility, so, you know, all the people that are like, oh, that's a HIPAA violation, how they left all the files there.

Well, no, because they weren't licensed, so they can just, , abuse our private records like that. and Maya, again, she's, , says all the best things. And she makes the point that there is no FDA for behavioral health. So, , and her example, she's like, you know, you can say, , standing on your head, cures addiction, come to my treatment facility and I'll charge a thousand dollars a day for it and that can happen.

And that is what's happening is you have a lot of unqualified, unlicensed, unregulated people being like, I'm gonna do this crazy therapy, pay me all this money and do it. And there's no one vetting that stuff to see, is this actually evidence based? Does this help or does this hurt? , and so it's really, , caused a big growth of this industry for entrepreneurs, because I hate to even like get this information out there.

But unfortunately anyone that can set up a website can say, start sending me your children and, ,

Sadie: And the industry standard is to pay all the staff minimum wage. They have no qualifications. You have no psychologist. It's the cheapest gig ever. You live in the middle nowhere with like a really cheap economy.

It's wild. Yeah. Yep. You do no activities. School is in house. You don't go anywhere. You just stay there all the time.

Katherine: No one's checking. No one's checking on these kids. It's insane to me that any place that houses children in congregate care Doesn't have any oversight or regulation to check in on them.

, it's, it's the same. ,. I am curious, I'm sure part of the process leading up to the release was like a very extensive fact checking process and I'm sure there were people that were like we got to check all our bases and do an extreme literature review and so I'm, I'm wondering because this is a question that I have all the time and have done somewhat of a literature review but not all the way, is there any evidence that supports these long term care facilities for adolescents?

Sadie: And especially they normally target like mood disorders or normally you're treating being a teen But did you guys come across anything? We were like, well maybe

Katherine: I mean, yeah, not really nothing.

Sadie: Yeah It doesn't exist.

Katherine: And I feel like I talked to all the best experts.

Yeah in this industry and I was even actually after the documentary ended, I started, , okay, so the, , psychiatrist that I interviewed in the documentary, Dr. Roger Call, he was the one that, , notified the authorities about Casa by the Sea once one of his patients was sent there. And he's the one that's called it like a mindfuck and everything.

, I started seeing him, , and so , he's my therapist now, after the doc, because I was like, you're the first, therapist that I know that actually understands this thing, and I usually spend, like, the first eight sessions just trying to explain. You're like, okay, we're gonna

Sadie: watch this documentary together, you can get the director's cut, I'll give you the, commentary.

Katherine: , so I was, , talking to him about it, I was like, is long term residential treatment for a year necessary and like anything and He's like, well, you know someone has like severe anorexia , and they need to have medical care. But then again, that's hospitalization.

Yeah medical plan but for behavior like it's just It's insane to me that this happened and happened to so many children for decades because you think about like as an adult You in order to get, , forcibly institutionalized against your will. Yeah, that has to be like, go through a court, through a judge.

It's like a 72 hour hold. It's crazy. To be long term institutionalized against your will, it's insane that it's happening to children with no due process at all. Yeah.

Sadie: I'm really, I, so I'm, , going into my senior year of college and I'm a psychology student. I want to go to grad school and I, am very interested in, the adolescent, internalizing disorder space, like, mostly depression.

But there's been no outcome studies on these programs and they have all the records of all the people that went there and they have their quote unquote outcome surveys from when these people were patients. And. Would it be really challenging for like privacy laws to get data on that? Yes, but there literally has been no research on long term, 10, 20 years later, how are these kids actually doing?

And so that's like one area I'm still poking around and being like, is anyone doing research that's even remotely related to this? Because it needs to be done.

Katherine: Well, yeah, and whatever research has been done, the stuff that we did find is when they're interviewing kids right before they leave or immediately after they left the program when they're so brainwashed and they're afraid to say anything.

And that's what's used for the marking materials. If you want a true like analysis of whether it's effective or not, check in on them 5, 10, 20 years later. , so what little data we have is, , Not great, and I mentioned in the documentary we started keeping a list of How many kids that were at Ivory Ridge have died?

either committed suicide or overdosed Since then, and at the time of the documentary, it was at 40, I think now it's at like 70 or 80. Wow. You know, we're getting more and more information as people have been coming out of the woodwork. Yeah. That's a very high rate. I mean, I'm curious for people who were not in a program, how many people do you know from your high school that have killed themselves?

Is it that much? . Yeah.

Sadie: So I

Katherine: would say that that small evidence that we do have, which I'd love to get more data to extrapolate and find out some more concrete numbers, but, , very, very high suicide rate. I don't know anyone really, , there was a time for, for a bit after the program where people, , would still kind of say, Oh, I needed it.

Or it was good. You know, they're still programmized a bit, but then we all go through the waking up process eventually. So I don't think anyone still really holds that opinion at this point. Yeah.

Sadie: Continuing on the like, after the documentary process, after it aired, I'm sure you had so many conversations with people who had also been in programs or had more recently been sent to treatment and I'm really curious what that process was like.

Did you learn any more interesting information after the fact about either Ivy Bridge or these other programs within the industry? . Talk to me about what it's like after you drop this major bombshell that's like this entire program and industry is super corrupt.

What does the aftermath of that look like?

Katherine: Yeah, well, first of all, everyone tries to distance themselves from WASP or from this, . Yeah. Like, well, we're not that or whatever, . But, and, let's see, I don't know how much I can say because I need to keep some stuff still ongoing. Of course. But, , I will say that, , A lot of these players, especially the WASP players that I exposed in there, are still currently doing stuff right now.

And, , what was interesting also is because, once everyone started disaffiliating from WASP, these kids in these newer programs didn't realize it was WASP until the documentary came out. so, , the doc released, and I got messages. from all over the world of people telling me about other programs. I mean, many people have come out of the woodwork, telling different stories, my friend, Alison, who was my hope buddy in, the documentary, she was one doing the palms up, palms down, palms together.

She, , got hit up by these two kids on Tik TOK who messaged her and they said, Oh my gosh, we just watched. The program and we saw narvin we were just in his program What we were like, what is this guy? They're these kids are 18 and 19 years old Yeah, they'd literally just gotten out of a program a year before that.

Narvin is currently running And she's like having you got to talk to these kids. This is this is insane , and then more and more narvin kids started reaching out that they didn't realize it was wasp because It wasn't considered wasp anymore It's these new names of programs that narvin is running And hearing the most horrific abuse and negligence and fraud that he's committing going on right now is insane.

Sadie: Yeah, no, it's, it literally is never ending, and when you see, like, when I think about, my own program, it's a very, of course it's always, like, the same staff, and they've been there forever, and they're gonna be there forever, but then you also look at, where they trained before, where they took a couple years to go and set up a program, and it's all so connected, and you think about how many kids they impacted in Utah, or North Carolina, or, like, whatever these other states are where they spent time with these other programs, and it's just so heartbreaking to think about how widespread it is. It's really challenging to like, mentally think about how, extreme it is. , but I do have one like, really fun story. Micro question, which one of my friends reached out after the documentary with the high school diplomas And she was like, how do I know if my high school diploma is real?

Because she went to a program after our therapeutic boarding school that she graduated from so I was wondering for people listening That also have that problem. How did you guys figure out? if they were like actual high school diplomas and Check the due process there.

Katherine: Oh good question. What is the right way?

I mean I had known about it because it became a headline and it became an issue and New York offered a refund to some families. So we knew that it was an issue. But yeah since the Documentary came out Within like the wasp survivor groups on Facebook and stuff. I saw other people being like wait.

I was at this wasp program It's my, it's my topic. Yeah, how? And , I know it's like oh gosh You I mean, it's so sad because a bunch of people are realizing that also now their high school diplomas are also fake. , and it's kind of a mixed bag because there were some schools that did actually work in conjunction with a real school accreditation, but then a lot that didn't.

, with WASP in particular, they set up, , Litchfield set up his own kind of school, a Browning Academy. , And then they, they were accredited through, like, I can't remember off the top of my head. It's like Northwest Association of School Accredited Colleges and Schools. Which, technically is real, but only accredited, not New York.

Like, , Illinois or somewhere. I can't remember exactly. , and then, now with, like, the current stuff that's going on, , with Narvin or other, I have to be careful because , he's currently suing me for defamation, so I'm not sure how much I can say about him. But

Sadie: yeah.

Katherine: Hilarious, anyway, , but, , yeah, it's, , how to check on it.

I should find out. Let me find out and get back to you because, I think it's like the Secretary of State for your state. , I don't know actually. Let me find out how to check if yours is or not. Yeah,

Sadie: maybe the Department of Education, , was like my guess. Yeah. But it's literally, this is what these programs do, is they give you no information, and then you're like pick up the pieces of your experience there, and you're like, there's no government body to help me.

Katherine: I know, I know. It's, crazy, and it just sucks for all the people that, I know I think some of my friends were like, oh, cause , my friend, Allison, , and Alexa, they both have their master's now. They're like, well, I have a master's, but I don't have a real high school diploma. But they're like, hopefully my employer doesn't see this and I'll lose my job.

Cause they literally have a real high school education. , Yeah, it's it's insane.

Sadie: Yeah. , the last thing that I wanted to ask you was about , Parents and teens who are currently in this situation and it's alarming like even if I just mentioned therapeutic boarding school alongside it was a terrible experience to ever send your child there.

People are still like, what therapeutic boarding school did you go to? Do you have any recommendations? , and I'm sure you probably got some of those messages as well. Like we heard your program was so bad, but For today, what option can I send my kid to? And so there's still so, so, so much misinformation out there.

And parents are still being told like, this is a good option. This is a good next step. So to you that are currently navigating this landscape, do you have any advice? And even for, , teens that have either just, sometimes people can listen to like podcasts in the program, if they're still kind of navigating that landscape or they've just graduated, what's your advice there?

Katherine: Yeah, no, that, I mean, that is the, Biggest question people always ask is like, well, if not this, then what? And I wish there was an easy answer for that. And there really isn't, it really depends. And it's different from state to state, from community to community and from child to child and family to family, depending on what that kid needs.

There's, , a whole different, you know, , type of thing you can do. So I can't really give just one answer. , but I would. Just again, say beware of the red flags that I looked out for trying to avoid long term residential treatment, , and try to avoid negative things like negative feedback. these programs are all like disciplinary, and behaviorist programs in general behavior modification.

Is this idea of you can modify behavior by being really strict and being really mean And actually negative feedback does not work as compared to positive feedback So do things that would be a positive experience for their child take them on positive outings and experiences find things they can do within their community , but then it's also tough because at the same time I wanted to be out of my house.

I, , had an abusive stepmother and I did not feel safe at home. I did not want to be at home. So where can you go when your home isn't a safe place? And I'm sad that there really aren't too many good options for that if you just have bad parents. And one of my like longer term projects I've been trying to, you know, get together for a long time is figuring out some sort of resource toolkit.

For survivors and for people looking for the subalternate options. It's just so hard because it varies so drastically From person to person and depending on where they are of what you can do So I don't have like an easy answer for that But I would say anything you're gonna do to talk it through with your child let them have a say in it You know, kids don't act out for no reason , and let them be involved in their own treatment, , otherwise it's, it's not gonna work.

Sadie: Yeah, no, I, 100 percent agree. If people want to follow along with you or keep an eye out for any future projects, where can they do that? ,

Katherine: I guess my Instagram is, , my, like, public facing thing. I, I've been private on all my social media, , up until the doc came out. I was like, I guess I should make, My Instagram public because but I was getting so many requests.

I couldn't keep yeah, I was like, all right I guess I need some place for people to contact me But so I have that I'm sorry if I'm not good at responding. I've literally received like I can only imagine But I also do have my website Katherine Kubler comm so you can send a message through there But yeah, usually Instagram's the best way.

I used to post a lot and now I have too many people following me. I'm too scared about what people post. I can't just post pictures of my dog and food anymore.

Sadie: Yeah, I love it. Oh my gosh. Well, that's perfect. I'll put both of those in the show notes and thank you so much.

Katherine: Yeah, thank you.

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