220. how to succeed as a psychology major (& what we wish we knew sooner)

May 13

listen to this episode:

In this week’s episode, I am joined by one of my closest friends at UPenn to discuss one of our favorite topics: being a psych major! In this episode, Olivia and I break down everything you need to know about majoring in psychology in college. We share all of our absolute best advice on what we wish we’d known before picking psychology as our major, including:

+ whether psychology is a competitive major

+ the different areas of psychology & career options for each

+ what psychology classes, homework, & grading are like

+ how to avoid burnout as a psych major

+ why getting research experience is so crucial

+ what your research timeline should look like as an undergrad

+ the importance of finding mentors

+ red & green flags when choosing your research lab

+ our favorite psych classes we’ve ever taken

+ and a fun bonus topic (hint: moral dilemmas!)

+ so much more!

Olivia’s Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/olivia.nicastro/⁠

Mentioned In The Episode…

+ ⁠Penn Psychology⁠

+ ⁠Center for Addiction Studies⁠

+ ⁠Anara AI⁠

+ ⁠Olivia’s email⁠

+ ⁠Olivia’s LinkedIn

SHOP GUEST RECOMMENDATIONS: https://amzn.to/3A69GOC

STARBUCKS GIFTCARD GIVEAWAY: Want coffee on me?! Each month I'll be randomly choosing a winner to receive a Starbucks giftcard! To enter this giveaway, all you have to do is leave a review of the podcast on⁠ ⁠Spotify⁠⁠ and/or⁠ ⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠ and DM me on a screenshot of your review on⁠ ⁠Instagram⁠⁠. Win bonus entries by tagging the podcast on your Instagram story or TikTok! Good luck!

About She Persisted (formerly Nevertheless, She Persisted)

After a year and a half of intensive treatment for severe depression and anxiety, 18-year-old Sadie recounts her journey by interviewing family members, professionals, and fellow teens to offer self-improvement tips, DBT education, and personal experiences. She Persisted is the reminder that someone else has been there too and your inspiration to live your life worth living.

a note: this is an automated transcription so please ignore any accidental misspellings!

Sadie: [00:00:00] Welcome to She Persisted, the Gen Z Mental Health Podcast. I'm your host, Sadie Sutton. Let's get into it.

how would you describe psychology for people who don't know what to expect?

Olivia: What can I do with a psychology degree?

Sadie: How much reading would you say you do for psychology classes

Olivia: What even is a research like study

Sadie: How important are grades?

What is the timeline for undergrad?

Olivia: Who are the professors at my school? What research are they doing?

Sadie: I'm curious, just like classes you would recommend taking?

Olivia: I wanna be a psych major. Should I take stat or calc?

Sadie: What are the opportunities as far as like, what projects am I involved in?

Olivia: What do you want to do, research wise?

Sadie: Why do we need research experience?

Any last parting advice to psych majors?

Hello. Hello and welcome back to another episode of She Persisted. We have one of my closest friends, Olivia, on the podcast today, fellow psychology major, and we are gonna give you guys like a one stop shop overview of everything you need to know if you want to major in psychology or you are majoring in psychology because we are graduating next week as a psychology major.

Yeah.

At Penn. If you couldn't tell by our [00:01:00] matching sweatshirts, you can see the video. I know we are Twitter. , Olivia, can you give us like a little introduction? So people can kind of understand if like their experience story relates to you, if not, et cetera.

Olivia: Yeah. Well my name's Olivia. I am from Lancaster, Pennsylvania. And as you mentioned, I will be graduating about a week. , I'm also just crazy.

It's flu. It's like I can't even imagine like how like

quick it's gone. Yeah. , And I am interested in doing a PhD in clinical psychology eventually. , I'm really interested in

addiction research, , looking at like genetic influences and also adverse childhood experiences on like the onset of substance use disorders.

And

yeah, that's, that's me. And we will talk normally not in academia. Yes. If you guys heard Olivia's, like, I don't understand anything she just said, which like, me also, even though I apparently am gonna have a psychology degree. Yeah, I never feel qualified to do anything. It's, that's the vibe.

Sadie: But I do think what is so great about this is that Olivia and I both wanna get our PhDs in clinical psychology. [00:02:00] Yes. We both went through the application cycle together. This year we're in the same seminar for our honors thesis program. And it's not a competitive major. No. 'cause research interests are so different.

Yes, exactly. And I love that.

Olivia: Yeah. I like, I never feel like I'm applying to the same things as like you or my friends because like. Everything they wanna do is like so different and it's so diverse.

Sadie: And if anything you love when a friend kind of joins your orbit, like is in a class or is in the same lab as you.

Yeah. Because again, what you wanna do with these experiences varies. You're not applying against each other like you might feel like in high school or definitely if you're pre-med, I feel like that might be a concern. Or consulting. Yeah. Or at Penn. So like that is something that people are really stressed about.

Like where are you interviewing for, you're for the same roles. And psychology doesn't have that vibe. And so to give you like my very brief research interests, I'm very interested in like adolescence, emerging adulthood, , mood disorders. But I'm really interested in like cognitive attributions and interventions.

Still need to figure out exactly [00:03:00] what I wanna apply to grad school for. But I like the more, , intervention, mood disorder space. , So we're not gonna be looking at like the same PI or the same research, but we can take the same classes, get the same skills at the same time. , So to kind of back things up for people that are considering majoring in psychology, it is the most popular major in the United States, which I didn't know.

I did not know that until right now. . It's like a, I think we should have psychology classes in health in high school. Yeah. Like it's very relevant and general knowledge and you can go a lot of places with a psychology degree.

You could apply to med school, you could apply to get your PhD sheet, you could do a master's. So it's not just like you major in psychology, you become the A therapist. So I thought we could kind of talk about the different areas of psychology, , and then like vaguely the different paths you could take so that people can understand if like that's even aligned with their goals.

Mm-hmm. was thinking about this, I was thinking about like school psychology. There's organizational psychology, which is like working with businesses. Mm-hmm. There's clinical psychology where you're working with [00:04:00] patients.

Mm-hmm. , There's more general psychology where you're doing research and you're not necessarily interacting with people as much from like a clinical capacity. I think there's health psychology, there's a lot of different domains that you could work in if you want to get a psychology degree.

Yeah.

And

then I'm also seeing all over my TikTok for you page.

I know you saw it 'cause I saw you reposted people being like graduating psychology major cannot do anything with this degree. Yes,

Olivia: yes. I feel like there's, that's always the concern. Everyone asks me, like, underclassmen asks me like, what can I do with a psychology degree? And my answer's always pretty much like.

Graduate school. Yeah. In some way, whether it's like a PhD, a ID, going to med school, I feel like everyone I know goes, or even a master's in like social work.

Sadie: Yeah. Which I would kind of say like, if you don't, you don't have to like studying. I also saw TikTok about this, like psychology is you love learning, not necessarily you love studying.

Which yeah. I love that. Yeah. , I think if you love learning, this is a good degree for you because you likely will need to build on that [00:05:00] with like a master's or some kind of licensure, maybe grad school. It's not like you just can go directly into industry once you graduate

but I think for both you and I, and you can tell me if this is wrong, I'm excited to go to grad school and keep learning. No, me too. Yeah. I love

Olivia: school. I'm like sad that I'm not going to be able to like go right into grad school. Yeah. I'm trying to like postpone getting a job as long as possible. Exactly.

Yeah. So it's

Sadie: like you, if you're hearing like, obviously there's like, oh my God, it's gonna be so long until we're working. Yeah. Like that is an interesting experience. But I think. generally like the idea of a next step. Mm-hmm. And like, learning more about this thing should excite you. , And that would be like a good indication that it's a good fit.

, So we both wanna do clinical, we wanna work with people that are maybe not as on a typical trajectory with regard to mental health. We want to work individually, , with people in that capacity. But you could also do psychology and go more into business. Like how do you motivate employees? How do you increase focus, increase output.

You could work in schools, so you could work with kids, you could work on improving, , [00:06:00] like IEPs, , things like that. ,

Olivia: so when

Sadie: we say like clinical, like we wanna get a clinical degree. Mm-hmm. But you could also graduate and you could work in like forensic psychology as an interviewer immediately and you could get that job.

So like, if you do wanna do therapy, there are other paths. Like you can be a licensed clinical social worker, you could get your master's in social work, you could get a doctorate in social work. , So you don't have to get a doctorate in psychology or in clinical psychology. , But a psychology major helps set you up for those options where you do work with patients or with people that like, like clients in that capacity.

, I wanna talk about the general experience for psychology classes because I feel like they differ a bit from like, I remember language classes is like so different or a math class. Yeah. , It's more like calm marketing, writing vibes is kind of Yeah. The other classes I would say it was similar to, , can you give your.

General, like how would you describe psychology classes for people who don't know what to expect? And then also like, we'll all talk about tips for psychology classes [00:07:00] specifically.

Olivia: Yeah. I feel like it really definitely depends on the school that you go to. we are at a smaller school than if you would go to like a large state school.

Mm-hmm. , So the only like large seminars or like the large lectures, I feel like I've had, have been like maybe a hundred, 200 people and that's not the norm. I feel intro intro is big though, and that psych scare is huge and like, it's huge because like so many people take it to see if they're interested in it, but that's definitely the largest psychology class.

you're going to take like Yeah. Some of my seminars I've taken have been like 10 people. , I mean, our honors class is what, like eight or 10 people? Yeah. Yeah. I definitely think it's, even though it is like such a popular major, I think they do a good job, at least at Penn of making it so you don't feel like you don't have a relationship with your professor and that you're not overwhelmed with the amount of people in the class.

Sadie: Mm-hmm.

I would say that the intro level psych classes. Mm-hmm. Whether that's like social, developmental, abnormal, general. Mm-hmm. Psychology. For here we have positive psychology. Those are definitely test based, like you can [00:08:00] expect like free tests a semester.

There is memorization of concepts. I will say they do try incorporate like free response. Yes. Like they do wanna understand that you can kind of interact with the material in an intellectual way. I would say once you get more into the seminars, it's a lot rarer that it's test based. It's instead projects or papers and.

That's my favorite personally. Like give me a paper over a test every day. A hundred percent. Yeah. And I feel like if psych is the right major for you, which like I am not someone who loves studying and I didn't mind prepping for Yeah. Tests in psychology.

Olivia: Yeah. I do really like that the psychology tests are mainly memorization.

Like I remember taking like AP chemistry in high school and it was like you had to understand a concept and be able to apply it in many different contexts. Yeah. And there is that to like some degree in psychology, but I, yeah. But you know, nature versus nurture. Yeah. And like biopsy psychosocial theory.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like mainly [00:09:00] memorize. Mm-hmm. These like DSM disorders. Yeah. Which I personally prefer. Mm-hmm. , I feel like it's easier to prepare for.

Sadie: Yeah. No, a hundred percent. And then I wanna talk about the level of reading, because yes, this is a very reading heavy major and there are ways to approach it more effectively.

Yes. Which we definitely wanna give tips on.

Mm-hmm.

The other thing that I'll mention, which I didn't think about in which I totally screwed myself over with freshman year, is that you can kind of burn out on psychology. Yes. Because the concepts overlap. Yeah. So freshman year I took intro to psych. I took a writing seminar, which is unique to Penn, but I took children's language acquisition and I took children in media, and those won't necessarily sound like they would be the same. Mm-hmm. But they were all talking about the stages of learning. Yes. And child development. Yes.

Olivia: How many times have we learned, like pre-operational, operational, yeah. How language develops,

Sadie: like

Olivia: just language in general is by far my least favorite psychology concept. I actually have negative interest

Sadie: in how people learn how to talk, but it's an easy, it's [00:10:00] easier than if the neuroscience stuff, I will say in my experience a hundred percent. So it's like one of those like.

you pick your boys. Yeah. And linguistics could be worse. It definitely could be worse. Yeah. It's just painfully boring. I think I would agree with that than more. But people love it. People do love it, and it's okay. Yes. That's okay. We need people for everything. It's just not my niche. Yes. Yeah. , So I took those three classes and even though they were in different departments with different teachers, and one was a seminar, one was a small lecture and one was a large lecture, I was learning the same things over and over again.

Yeah. And I was getting assigned readings mm-hmm. For the same thing over and over again. And I mentally was so like burnt out. Yeah. And struggled with that. Mm-hmm. And so I think being aware of like what your topics of classes are covering, interspersing, your general ed requirements, because there is overlap with topics and you will burn yourself out with like studying and writing things if you're in a semester where you're learning the same thing over in again in like three different classes.

Yeah. And I could see that happening really easily with linguistics. Maybe some stat [00:11:00] stuff if you're trying to overlap with like your math requirement. , Definitely childhood development. 'cause that just like, there's only one way to teach it. The other ones like, aren't that bad, but mm-hmm. I remember freshman year being like I, that was horrible.

Yeah. So going back to readings. Yeah. How much reading would you say you do for psychology classes or like how much is assigned? We'll say like two

Olivia: to three

Sadie: hours a day. ' cause I don't do that.

Do you think? Yeah, that's probably accurate for what is assigned, like Yeah. Academic papers, textbook chapters. Mm-hmm. Other related readings that map onto what you're learning about. one of the biggest pieces of advice I give to high schoolers is that you can't do all the readings and not learn. Yes.

Olivia: That's advice I got from one of my mom's friends. , My freshman fall, I was freaking out.

I had, I was also taking the English class. Oh. I was until

Sadie: two in the morning doing these readings. Yeah. But I never would use again. Yeah. No.

Olivia: I was up like, I was taking an English class, taking like three psych classes. I have so many readings and I'm just thinking like, there's a [00:12:00] zero chance I'm gonna be able to read all of this.

And then I, I was told like by my mom's friend, she was like, you know, when I was in school, like you have to pick and choose. Yeah. Like if you have a class where your exams are actually based on readings. Do those readings. Yeah. If you have a class where you're never gonna use those readings, I'm not saying don't do them.

Yeah. But maybe like read the abstract, read the conclusion. Read the summary. Yeah. Like skim it. Yeah. Because you like literally will just, you're gonna miss important things in your other readings.

If you're doing these like 70 page reading that your one professor signed, that actually doesn't really matter if your grade,

Sadie: like not all readings are created equal. Mm-hmm. And you're gonna get better and better at being able to tell which ones you have to do and which ones you just need to be able to ask a question about.

Yeah. Contribute to the discussion. Mm-hmm. And I think it depends on the class. I would say the intro courses, the textbook readings, or at least being able to answer all the textbook like practice questions. Yeah. That's important. So like. Cognitive science, remember that was a big thing. Mm-hmm. Like normal psych.

Social psych. 'cause it's again, these [00:13:00] memorization of concepts. Mm-hmm. And you could learn that from like really working the lecture material, teaching them to yourself. But you could also do that from the textbook. Like my neuroscience classes never touch a textbook and never needed it to the professor.

Olivia: At least I had a really good professor for my class and he just went over what was in the textbook and it's like, maybe I could have understood it a little bit better if I read the textbook, but it's like 60 pages for like one chapter. it would've taken me a very long time to read the textbook and it did not turn out to be necessary. So I was like, I don't need to read, the textbook for my neuroscience classes. I'm gonna read the textbook for my psychology classes because I need to write a paper or something.

Yeah,

Sadie: I would say that for the seminar style classes, you need to be able to have a conversation about it. Yeah. Which, because your

Olivia: participation is usually always a big part of your grade mm-hmm.

For seminars. So you, they will take what you say, like very seriously, like you need to be able to say something like. I read this and I understand what's going on.

Sadie: Or like give a critique, which if you're good at like bs a good discussion, you'll probably be [00:14:00] fine. Yeah. But just like go in knowing that.

Mm-hmm.

And then one of my favorite finds this semester has been an, do you know about an, is that like ai? Yes. Okay. So if you've ever tried to like give chat GBT and summarize a paper, it's not very good. It's not? No. And if you try and ask it questions about the paper, it doesn't pull from the paper.

Mm-hmm. What a NARA does is you can upload any research paper and you can ask it questions about one paper and it will only answer from that paper and it'll give you line by line citations. Wait, I should have done that. So if you were like, okay, like what does this theory say about phonemes? Mm-hmm.

It will tell you the exact line where they talk about phonemes. Wow. And so you can quote us directly. Mm-hmm. And then what's even better is you can group papers together. Mm-hmm. So I will upload the 30 papers that I've cited in my thesis. Mm-hmm. And say what is the general consensus around emotional citation?

Mm-hmm. And this is the best psychology, major AI that I've found. Really? Okay. It's so good. I have primarily used chat chit. Yeah. No, I love [00:15:00] chat. I use it all the time. Mm-hmm. I use Claude sometimes, not as much. Mm-hmm. But if you have readings, you can upload any reading to here. I uploaded the entire a PA style guide so I can ask you questions about it.

That's, it's so

Olivia: Right. Like that needs to be talked about. Right. Like a PA like sucks it, they just, I feel like sometimes we, we've never gotten really a good like overview of like, we've had to write many a p style papers. Yeah. And I've never been explicitly told like, this is how you do an a p style paper.

Yeah. People, yeah. And I'm on like the APA website and I'm like, well, or do, it's like 20 different editions, so which 1:00 AM I supposed to be writing? Yeah. So that's really helpful.

Sadie: Yeah. So if you are doing readings, I would say doing like an AI summary. Mm-hmm. Or what does this person think about x. That is a game changer for those classes that you don't need to do.

Mm-hmm. All of the readings for another one is Google Notebook, lm. Okay. You could upload your readings and you can get a podcast. It's not perfect and it's not all encompassing, but I send Yeah, you, yeah. Test prep. Yeah. And [00:16:00] so I'll be like, summarize my notes from this lecture. Make it a podcast and it will talk you in like podcast, conversational manner, your academic notes.

Mm-hmm. And that's another, but again, you have to remember that's not perfect and like all encompassing and NARA is like very, very good. , So I would say like using these other ways of learning and distilling the information. Yeah. But from like a mental burnout perspective and a cheer time perspective.

Mm-hmm. Doing all the readings is not feasible. It's not, no. How would you rank like the importance if you were taking every type of class this semester and you don't have the bandwidth to the

Olivia: readings. Seminars definitely at the top of doing the readings. , Especially because primarily you're making like discussion posts and you're also writing papers as opposed to doing like an exam.

So basically like my whole class was centered around the readings that we did and every day all we did in class was talk about the readings that we did. So I knew it was important. I would say lectures are usually middle, [00:17:00] like a psychology lecture, like social psychology, abnormal psychology. It's, it's important to do the readings, I would say, but they will be covering most of that in class.

, And then at the bottom is any like stats, like I've never touched a stats textbook. Oh, it's so confusing. Never put a textbook. Yeah. And I just reading about math I think is pointless. Yeah. You have to like try and do it. Yeah. Speaking of which. Why do we need research experience?

Sadie: Because I, like, when I applied to Penn, I knew that they had great research. Mm-hmm. Which is one of the reasons that like great science, but I didn't really know what that meant.

Olivia: I

Sadie: really thought I wasn't gonna have to do research.

Olivia: I didn't really, when I applied to Penn, I knew I wanted to be a psychology major and I like applied as a psychology major.

, But I didn't really know what that meant. Mm-hmm. Like, I didn't know what I was supposed to be doing as a psychology major. Yeah. Like outside of my classes. I didn't know what, what. So hopefully this podcast will tell. Yeah, I know. Hopefully I didn't know what I wanted to like do as a career, so I didn't what I was supposed to be doing.

And then I took [00:18:00] a, , freshman seminar. It was on addiction and I had already had a lot of like, interest in addiction because of like addiction in my family. So I took this class and I was really interested in it and I asked the professor, I was like, I'm really interested in the work you're doing. Do you have any openings?

, And he didn't, but he set me up with someone at the Center for Addiction Studies at Penn who was doing research and got me involved, like my first research at Penn. Which was just so helpful. But yeah, I didn't really know what research was when he was like, what do you want to do? Like research wise?

I had no idea. I just like went to this Center for Addiction Studies and I met with Dr. Henry Kranzler, who was like my mentor my freshman year, like one of my favorite people here at Penn. , And he just was like, you don't need any background. 'cause I was worried. I was like, I've never done research. Yeah.

I have no idea what I'm doing. He was like, well, like tell you, like I will walk you through how to write an academic paper, like how to be involved in a study, what even is a research like study at Penn look like.

Yeah.

, And I feel like Penn's been very good with that. Just like. If you are coming in with no background, they'll [00:19:00] take you.

Yeah. They know that. Yeah. Like they're expecting that fully. And I feel like they're so welcoming to like even freshmen, getting involved in research.

Sadie: Yeah. It's a big part of how the psychology program is structured and how the labs work. Like they will get so many inbound requests from non-ED students being like, I'm a statistician.

Mm-hmm. I am a senior at Temple or Drexel. Mm-hmm. Or these other schools. And they will choose to hire the freshmen to train and give Yeah. It's like a big part of mm-hmm. The degree that you're getting. Yeah. And then the mentorship process is built into these programs. I also think, like I agree with you, where I knew that I wanted to be a psychologist, probably.

Mm-hmm. I wanted a psychology degree, but I didn't understand that research was how I would get there. Yeah, I agree. Like that just like was totally lost for me until sophomore year. Yeah. And so. I think understanding that when you hear people say like, oh, I have a master's in social work, or I have a PhD in clinical psychology, or I'm a [00:20:00] therapist.

Even if they don't do it now, how they got that degree and how they got into those programs was research everything in psychology's research. And I would be like, email us if you have an exception. I would be shocked. I know,

Olivia: because like show me a psych major who's never done research. Yeah,

Sadie: yeah, it is. So it's like literally synonymous to any work in psychology.

Mm-hmm. Even if you wanna like completely split and do just clinical down the line. Mm-hmm. You have research to get the degree, have research. Mm-hmm. , And so what does research mean? It means the final papers that you read that tell us like grit makes you more successful. Yeah. Or optimists have better outcomes.

Mm-hmm. Like these findings that we know as a whole in psychology, the day-to-day and especially what it means that at this level is like. Collecting data with participants, statistics, reading the literature, lots of data

Olivia: cleaning. Mm-hmm. Lots statistics. That was like another big thing that I, I didn't think I would do that.

I, [00:21:00] I was like a senior in high school and I was like deciding between taking calculus and statistics and I knew I wanted to be a psych major. Major don't calculus. Don't take calculus. No. And I like just Googled, like, I wanna be a psych major. Should I take stat or calc? And they were like, take stat. I didn't know why they said that.

Yeah. But I was like, okay. And then, no, it's actually necessary. Like I have done so much coding in r If you had told me my freshman year, I didn't know what R was of college, that I would be coding. Yeah. For psychology. I would've laughed in your face. Okay. Hundred percent. I was like, there's no idea. You'll never catch me dead coding an r And and also love it.

Would I need YouTube? Why would need YouTube? I wanna be a psychologist. I wanna work people. I don't wanna work with computers.

Sadie: Yeah. ,

Olivia: But it's like synonymous like you do.

Sadie: And you don't know that.

Olivia: No. You don't know that. Now you know that, but yes, you didn't.

Sadie: So basically like you'll understand.

The more you could experience, but like, if you wanna go into psychology, that means you're gonna do research. Yeah. Unfortunately. Unfortunately. And you also might be Okay, I'd like to get involved with psychology as an undergrad. I'm ready to write papers. No, no, you're not. That's not happening.

, So we're gonna like get later into like [00:22:00] posters, papers, publishing, what it's like working in a lab.

, But just like also to clarify what research as an undergrad looks like. Yeah. Is not that. ,

Olivia: Which is, I will say very weird because that was my first experience really, like at the Center for Studies of Addiction. Like when I was starting off, the research was done. They were at the manuscript writing process.

And that's all I did. Yeah. I worked in a lab like that and it's, if you can find that it, well, yeah. 'cause I didn't know at the time how like invaluable publications were gonna be. Yeah. And so publications

Sadie: are the currency of psychology. They

Olivia: literally are. And so I was just like, yeah. Like I'll, I'll help write this manuscript.

I don't really know why I'm doing this. Like, I don't really put You got it. Well, paper. Yeah. And that was like. So important. But it was weird. I had like a backwards experience where I like started off writing the papers and only till my junior year did I ever actually do like a research study from like the beginning of like actually collecting data.

Sadie: Yeah.

So if people are like, okay, I get it. I have to do research, I want to do research. What is the timeline for undergrad? [00:23:00] Because I feel like, I mean, we are at a very pre-professional school. Yeah. So there is this set timeline, there's this pressure for people to have like summer jobs or internships.

Mm-hmm. I don't think that exists everywhere, but I do think it's helpful to have like a rough timeline and framework that you could follow because I feel like I was kind of just doing choose my own adventure. Yeah. my, we can kind of like go through this together and like give our thoughts.

Mm-hmm. Freshman year, I would say like freshman fall, take. Intro to psych. If you don't have the credit already, take one other psych class if you can. If you don't need the credit, like maybe a seminar, , that's kind of related to what you want to do, just to confirm like, okay, I like the style of psychology classes.

I could see myself doing this for like decades to come.

Mm-hmm.

And then also core requirements. 'cause getting those out of the way early important is helpful. And then I would maybe try and like do some general poking around on the university website of like what labs are there? Who's collecting data?

Just kind of like ask around, . But a, I have only [00:24:00] seen probably like one person get hired as a freshman.

Mm-hmm.

Two, actually, it's hard to first semester freshman get hired and, and by hired, at least for me, I mean, volunteer and working for free because that's the only option.

Yeah. Unfortunately. And B, you're just like adjusting and trying to survive. Yeah. What would you say for first semester freshman year? ,

Olivia: I feel like my situation was a little different just because I took that freshman seminar. Yeah. And I found the person who was doing the research I wanted to do, which like is so incredible.

And if that class had happened to you, it's okay. Yeah. I would say just like figure out like, what are you interested in? Take classes, do some research, , look up, like who are the professors at my school? What research are they doing?

Are they doing anything that I'm interested in? And cold email them. Yeah. Like, professors are so receptive to just emailing and saying, I'm interested in what you're doing. Do you have any positions? Do you have any volunteering, options

Sadie: or, and it depends on the size of the, like if you're going to like.

A big professor at your school, they might say no. Yeah. But especially [00:25:00] the ones that are still establishing their career, being like, mm-hmm. I'd love to understand what the research process looks like. I'm interested in what you're studying. Can I come by one of your office hours? Yeah. Can I meet with you for 30 minutes?

And the relationships with the professors are so key. Literally everything. Yeah. Yeah. So every single class, even if it's linguistics mm-hmm. Go up the first day and introduce yourself to the professor. 'cause you can't review that later in the semester. Even if you never talk to them again.

At least you're setting yourself up for success in the event that you like their area of research and them as a person. Because it's a small field too. Yes.

Olivia: And you don't want any, , bad relationships, any ops. Yeah.

Sadie: The relationships that you have with your professors are the most valuable thing you'll get out of undergrad.

Mm-hmm.

And so anytime you can ask to meet with someone and talk to someone, and then you'll decide which relationships you want to pursue. But just like before, you know Yeah. Like the foundation is helpful and that means sending thank you emails. Mm-hmm. After the classes ended, going to office hours.

Getting FaceTime. Mm-hmm. Like if you think you wrote a [00:26:00] good essay for their class, or you did well on the test, or you wrote a good course review, they don't know you, you have to see them and meet them in person. Mm-hmm. That's what makes the difference and moves the needle.

Olivia: I feel like I haven't been that good at doing that, to be honest.

Mm-hmm. Like, unless this sounds like awful, but unless I'm like interested in the work they're doing, I usually don't. No, I agree. It should only be like if it's aligned. ,

Sadie: But if you're a freshman and you don't know what you wanna do, you don't know yet. No. Yeah. Freshman year wanna keep your Definitely, yeah.

Olivia: I feel like once I narrowed in like what I wanna do Yeah. I was like, I'm, I'm only gonna network with

Sadie: perhaps. Yeah. Totally valid. What do you think about freshman year? Summer? Because I did nothing freshman year, summer and I have no regrets.

I think that was totally fine.

Olivia: I think it's totally fine. I did like a internship research thing, like also podcast because she's better at this. That's not true. I literally just, she got so lucky with the set of verdict addiction studies. I was like, I actually could not talk better about that. Yeah.

they like kept me on, throughout the summer and during my sophomore year. And they were just so [00:27:00] like welcoming. I worked remotely. I only came into Philly, like once a week. , And they were just so great.

Yeah. But like. That's not necessary.

Sadie: Totally.

Olivia: Yeah.

Sadie: And I do think this is why we're harping on like labs and mentors because I would say, again, I said the most valuable thing is the relationships, the experiences you get in labs. Finding the right one that sets you for success, fight like that. Makes it's amazing.

Makes all the difference. Yeah. So if you want something to do freshman year, being a research assistant at a lab over the summer is perfect. And it doesn't have to be at your university. If you're like, I am volunteering for free, or I'm on work study, I can't afford to rent somewhere over the summer, you could do any university near your home.

Yeah. There's virtual work that can be done. , So be flexible. Yeah. Open a different options. Mm-hmm. I would say to start looking for that, like early-ish, put out feelers spring semester because. They do kind of hire early for summer roles. I also say that people will kind of be resistant to a cold email saying, I'd like to work for you for three months because it's not worth it for them.

[00:28:00] Yeah. To train you.

Olivia: I would definitely not specify like I wanna work with you. Yeah. Just over the summer, like I would just feel out like I'm interested in your work. Like do you have any openings? Yeah. And then see where they're taking it. So that's

Sadie: like optimal to do it at your university because then it's like an ongoing relationship.

You'll get a better letter of rec. It's worth it for them to train you and bring you onto the team. However, if you've established a relationship with someone, they probably will throw you three months of work over the summer. Yeah. But like general of thumb, tri and all. Keep it in the same lab for at least two to three semesters.

Yeah. It's hard to get a good letter without that. And most, most labs will tell you they want at least two semesters commitment. I think. , Sophomore year.

Olivia: so

I would, I mean, always

if you can find

something to get paid, do it.

Sadie: . You can get paid through work study. Sometimes labs will have grants that allow them to pay you. We're not in the best era as far as funding if you've been following the news. Right. We are not painfully you can apply to grant for grants through [00:29:00] your university's research center.

You could get independent funding. There are a lot of ways to do it if you feel you need to get paid. The way that I've done the podcast and research is I've subsidized that by doing social media work. Mm-hmm. So having something where you're like, you have some income that allows you to then volunteer these extra hours Yeah.

Towards your career goals. Mm-hmm. Is also an option. And I would not worry too much about, like, the communication neuroscience lab for me was not really the research I wanted to be doing. Yeah. And at first I was a little worried, like, is this gonna look bad? That I am going a little all over the place with my research right now, but I, I don't think that's like a bad thing at all.

Olivia: No. Yeah. Like the more experience you get, the more realize what you want. Yeah. Because if you only do one type of research, even if you're like confident that's what you wanna do, like you really should have some other experiences and grad schools are just looking for like, you have experience. I don't think they really care that much.

Yeah. Like, okay, maybe you did like depression work your freshman year and then sophomore year was like schizophrenia. Yeah. And then junior year was addiction. And only then did you realize you wanna do [00:30:00] addiction work.

Sadie: I think they'll pay attention to like what you write your thesis about. So like what your interest is for your independent project.

If you do a job after graduating, which we'll talk about. What you chose to do for that. Mm-hmm. But I would say as an undergrad, the best thing you can do is diversify your experiences. Yes. So get some experience with data cleaning. Mm-hmm. Some experience with active data collection. Yeah. Experience with different sizes of labs.

Mm-hmm. Experiences with different styles of mentors. Yes. What type of data collection do they do? Is it a Qualtrics survey or are they like hooking people up to an EEG?

Olivia: Yeah. No, I think it's so much more important what you're doing at a lab than what the lab is studying. Yeah. Like they wanna see that like you've been involved in every aspect of the research process.

Mm-hmm. What like no matter what lab you're at.

Sadie: Okay. And related to that size of research labs, just tell me like your experience with size of research labs and what you liked, what you did it.

Olivia: I think there's definitely pros and cons. .

I don't

know.

Sadie: I would say there's pros and cons for each.

I think if you can expose yourself to both,. Because a smaller [00:31:00] lab that might be something you really love, really getting to know the people. Yeah. You really understand everything that's happening in the lab. You have more input mm-hmm. On what projects are going on.

You'll probably know the PI better. A larger lab, the benefits are that a, there's a sense of community.

Mm-hmm.

There's more scaffolding as far as mentorships. Mm-hmm. You have people that are. Sophomore, junior seniors. Yeah. And you could ask them questions about what to do in undergrad. You then have post backs who are people who have just graduated.

Mm-hmm. And haven't yet gone to grad school. Mm-hmm. You have grad students, you have the pi. Yeah. Who's a professor. No, sorry. Before the pi you have postdocs, so people who have gone to grad school and are still doing research, and then you have your PI and your professor. So you're able to see like what your future career will look like.

Yeah. You can ask questions, you can get support for grad applications, grant applications. A lot of the times also larger labs will be doing more data collection.

Mm-hmm.

So if you wanna be like really involved with a larger study, like for example, the [00:32:00] lab I'm starting at as a postbac in June five, , post backs are starting at the same time.

Mm-hmm. So

like big larger lab, larger study happening, tons of participants moving through, there's not a good or a bad setup.

Yeah. Like

I would say that I see my pi more in the larger lab than I did my smaller lab. Yeah. Which is counterintuitive. , So I would say exposing yourself to both so you know what you like.

Mm-hmm. And then you can use that information to decide a, what kind of lab do you wanna do your thesis at? And what kind of lab do you wanna work at after graduating?

Olivia: Yeah. And I think like, almost more important than the size of the lab is the type of professor running the lab. Yes. Like, as you mentioned, like you could have a small lab, but if you don't have a hands-on professor, like it doesn't really matter.

If you have a small lab, you're not gonna see them. Yeah. But if you have a hands-on professor, even if the lab is large, you will see them. And for me personally, I'm very much a person who likes a hands-on professor.

Sadie: A hundred percent. I

Olivia: want someone, not even just for research, but like

Sadie: the relationship. I want a

Olivia: relationship.

Yeah. I want, like my professor [00:33:00] that I'm doing my, senior thesis with right now, absolutely adore her. She's like. So

hands-on. She asks me how I'm doing every day, like she knows about my personal life and that's made me way more productive in her lab than any

other position I think I've had just because of like building that relationship.

Sadie: You are allowed to ask also, when you interview for labs, like Yeah. You're interviewing them as much as they're interviewing you. Yeah. Because there were lots of labs on these campuses. What questions would you be asking? The lab manager? Mm-hmm. The post backs, the other undergrads, the pi. To figure out if it's a good mentor fit.

Olivia: Yeah. I, I think I forget where you were. I think it was the A BCT conference where one of the professors said, don't ask me my mentoring style. Yeah. And, , which was really good to hear. 'cause I really took that and didn't ask like during grad school interviews. Yeah. Any of like the professors about that.

But I always asked the graduate students when I interviewed with them and they'll be

Sadie: honest and they

Olivia: [00:34:00] will be. Yeah. They've been exactly where you're at. Yeah. I've gotten such , candid responses from like graduate students to the point where I didn't end up even like applying mm-hmm. To like these programs.

, And so I think it's super necessary to ask the graduate students, or the undergrad professor or the undergrads, like what kind of mentor the professor is like, are they hands-on? Do they give you good feedback? When is the timeline like for their feedback? Do you see them often?

Do you know anything about their lives? Do they know anything about

your life? you want someone that you can like. Actually have a relationship with,

Sadie: I would say, like green flags and every lab is different. This might not be true for everyone. Do they generally have an open door policy?

Mm-hmm. Like Dr. Ruscio at Penn does this really well where she has a really clear understanding and hierarchy of who she's serving and supporting. Mm-hmm. Where she's like my research assistants that have been in my lab mm-hmm. They have dedicated hundreds of hours to my work. Mm-hmm. If they need anything, I'm there.

Mm-hmm. She spent two hours on the phone with me. Mm-hmm. Helping me choose my post-back job. Then she's like my students that are taking my class. Mm-hmm. It's my job to support them through this curriculum. I'm there if they need me during office [00:35:00] hours. Then it's like other people that she's like working with people that are in her class, et cetera.

Mm-hmm. And so I would say a PI that has an open door policy for people who are in their lab. Like can you go to them and ask about a summer opportunity or a project you wanna work on? Or a career choice. Yeah. The answer should be yes. The second thing is like, do they have fun little like celebrations?

Mm-hmm. Like the lab been written. Right now we have a pizza party when we get to a certain number of failures to like celebrate, people that like dropped out the study. No, no, no. Like do we celebrate that? Like it's not all wins. So we keep a list of people things of rejections. Right. That's amazing.

Yeah. And we also do little celebrations like Trader Joe's snack hangouts when we meet like different goals as far as like data collection or cleaning. Yeah. Where there's like a semester end party. , I would say a professor that like, this sounds weird, but invites you to their house is a green flag.

Olivia: I've never been to any of my professors really other than like our honors seminar. Oh yeah. For like, that was the only time I [00:36:00] was at, yeah. Professor's house.

Sadie: I would say it probably depends on the university, but like that True. Yeah. That communicates that they want you to know them.

Yeah. They want you to be a part of their life. They also

Olivia: see you as an equal.

Sadie: Yes. Which

Olivia: is really important. Like I definitely had experiences where I felt very, like you see me as like a child. Yeah. , And I've had experiences with the professors where I can tell, like, you see me as someone who's like potentially gonna be your colleague one day.

Totally. Or even see me as like a colleague now, which is like a completely different experience.

Sadie: Yeah. . And then I would also say hearing from the people in the lab that the professor listens to your research interests. Yes. And lets you Yeah. Have a little bit of leeway mm-hmm. With what projects you're doing.

Yeah. And then you're allowed to ask all these questions in interviews, ask them to undergrads, ask them to post backs. I would also definitely ask like, what are the opportunities as far as like, what projects am I involved in?

Is there funding in your lab for conferences, posters, et cetera.

If they

Olivia: come to you with an idea that they want you to go to a conference, make sure that that conference is being paid for by the lab. And if it's [00:37:00] not Yeah. Don't do it. Yeah. Because you will be out like $500 between like traveling to that conference. Actually registering for a conference is like. At minimum like $300.

It's expensive. And especially for someone who's like a first generation college student, I had zero clue as to what it was. I didn't even know what a conference was. Yeah. I mean, unless your parent literally does research. Yeah. You don't know what a conference is. You don't know the expectations. No. And I feel like some more conversation about like, this is what I can actually financially provide for you as my student is necessary.

Because you don't wanna be in a position where you just found out that you have to register for a conference. You don't have the money to register for a conference. Yeah. But you have to be at that conference 'cause you submitted a abstract for it.

Sadie: I would also say like, you are helping them. Yes.

And they should be helping you. They should be helping you and Yeah, in the, in the event that it's free. And even if you're getting paid through work study or something, you're still a full-time student. [00:38:00] So I would say like five to 10 hours mm-hmm. Is very reasonable. Yes. That is. Enough mm-hmm. To contribute per semester, maybe more if it's in the summer.

Mm-hmm. Because you're not doing anything else and you should be getting something in return. Yes. Because you're dedicating those hours to whatever they need help with. Yes.

Yes.

And so are you getting really great experience with data collection and hands-on stuff? Are you getting a great letter of recommendation?

Mm-hmm. What is gonna go on your cv? And we're gonna talk about cvs.

Yeah.

, But I would say like you are providing value to them. That's why they want you. Mm-hmm. And also, what are you getting out of it? Yeah.

Okay. I'm curious, just like random, quickly, classes you loved, classes you would recommend taking?

Olivia: My favorite class that I took at Penn was into the Criminal Mind with Dr. Rebecca Waller. I just recommend any seminar, like seminars are just far superior to lectures. When you're in a lecture, you don't really make that great of a relationship with the professor.

I feel like you less interesting. It's less interesting you don't feel as engaged because let's be honest, if you decide you want to just go on your [00:39:00] computer and shop, like no one's gonna know. But if you're in a seminar, like people will know. Yeah. You have to be engaged, which is like to your benefit because you'll actually get something out of it.

Sadie: Even at Penn, there's some seminars where you're actually able to like work with other people. Like I'd went to an elementary school.

There's somewhere you can go and work in like volunteer context. So that's really exciting. I would say my favorite class was Grit Lab. If you're going to Penn, you have to take Grit Lab. Best class set up, best class content, 10 out of 10. Angela Duckworth is the best person I've ever met. She keeps coming on the podcast we recorded this week.

Wow. That's an honor

Olivia: for you. I was, that's crazy.

Sadie: A full circle moment because I wrote my pen essay about Really? Yes. Wow. So I was like, you made it my You made it. You literally made it. Yes. Yeah. , So that one is incredible. But I also loved Signs of Wellbeing, which was with Dr. Sullivan. Just 'cause like it was Dr.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like a retrospective of his whole life's work. We have some books here by him. We also have somewhere, judgment and decisions. If you're listening and you're at Penn, the guy who does [00:40:00] that, ed Rosman is hilarious. , I loved Intro to Positive Psych. That's again, a Penn thing, but if there's like a signs of happiness, Dr.

Caroline fondly, she's amazing. Yeah. Amazing. If there's like a signs of happiness class at your university

mm-hmm.

a very interesting, lots of things you can apply to your own life. I've never known anyone that hasn't enjoyed it as far as a class goes. Yeah. Abnormal psych, great. Abnormal psych. Did you know that at Harvard they call it psychopathology because they normal psych is now like not as PC

Olivia: True.

Because they don't wanna say something. Something's normal ex stigmatize and something's not normal. Yeah. Which makes sense. And psychopathology sounds better.

Totally.

Yeah. Bio-psychosocial criminology, , see that wouldn't white and about class, but love that for you. But Dr. Adrian Rain. I think he's retired now.

Sadie: I think he'll show up and Yes. Speak of some classes. But you might be right that he's not teaching. I don't think he's teaching anymore. Which is a shame because his teaching he's style is amazing. He's so funny. He's so engaging. He's like, but he is the so intelligent field. He [00:41:00] is so intelligent. He's so, yeah.

Olivia: He just knows everything. Like there were so many times in classes where I would ask a professor something and you can tell they just really don't know the answer. Yeah. Never in his class. Like he just knew like everything about this field and I learned so much about like, I'm really interested in like criminal behavior.

Yeah. And you learn so much about how like, criminals think. That's another reason why I loved, , into the criminal mind with Dr. Waller. Yeah. And you just, there's so many like ethical dilemmas that come with it, which has been like my favorite like thinking process at Penn. Yeah. Should we give the famous one?

Which famous one? If you're going on a hike

Sadie: with your sibling, I don't know that one. Oh my God. This is like deep psychology lore. You go on a hike with your brother. Okay. Who has a life-threatening condition where when he has low dopamine, he dies. Okay. He carries a vial of dopamine with him everywhere. Okay. You're on the hike [00:42:00] and the vial of dopamine breaks. Mm-hmm. The only way to save his life is to have sex with him.

Olivia: There's no way.

This is the most, do you do it? There's no way. Zero. You haven't heard this. There's zero chance. That's the, that's a real thing.

Sadie: It's not a real thing. It's a moral dilemma. Why is that the only option? That's the only option. And then it's like there's, after there's no negative consequences. You did it to save their life.

The relationship isn't, isn't impacted. Do you do it? And people can't make a decision. Another one is like, , you're on a vacation with your brother. You randomly decide to have sex. Actually, it was fine, but you decide to never do. This is a white

obvious.

Yeah, it's spoilers, but you decide to never do it again.

The relationship goes back to normal. Is that morally unethical if no one was negatively impacted by it? And people can't just, they can't. Like, why? Because I said so. No, but you, there's not a reason why, which is what makes it so [00:43:00] interesting.

Olivia: I don't like that one. I like the, I like the other more ones.

There's mostly, I love the railroad one because I think the o the answer's so obvious and I can't see another side of it. I Okay. Get the railroad one. Well, it's like, okay, I'm pretty sure it goes like if a train's like coming and it's going to hit, I think it's like, what is it? It's going to hit. Three people, three construction workers or three row workers.

Yeah. And you have the option to change its course for it to hit one person instead. So you're killing like far fewer people do you do it,

Sadie: but you are make, you're not letting nature take its course. You're intentionally. That's exactly what I say.

Olivia: Like of course I'm letting 'em hit the three people because they, that would've happened regardless of me if I move its course.

So it hits the one person, like, yes, less people are dying, but that's directly my fault. But then people say like, is inaction like, like, I'm sorry.

No.

Yeah.

Sadie: What is the, what is that called to totalitarianism? Is that the theory of I, so it's like, at what point do you value more lives rather than less? And what if it's a hundred people?

[00:44:00] What if it's a thousand people?

Olivia: What's a lie? I just, I could never like, but here's the one thing, if it was like the train is barreling towards my brother.

Yeah.

and On the other track is 20 random children. I'm hitting

those children.

Yeah. So it's like there's literally no. Yeah, but I don't feel bad saying that, but objectively you can't tell me a single person who disagrees. I mean, okay, maybe they are better people than me out there who do disagree, but I'm sorry. But like it is our nature as like animals that like to protect our, to protect our like family.

Here's another one.

Sadie: A family's dog gets hit by a par. Okay? It's very sad. There's nothing that can be done. They're curious what dog meat tastes like. They decide to cook and eat the dog. Okay. Is that bad?

No.

Well, but that was their dog. True. How's it different from meeting your sibling? Have you ever had a dog?

No. Okay. She doesn't understand. Guys. We can't ask, say cat, someone the family cat petties. [00:45:00] Yeah. The family is curious what cat tastes like. Yeah. They cook and eat the cat. Is that

Olivia: wrong? Legally? Yes. Morally. Why is it legally wrong? The cat was already dead. Wait, isn't it legally wrong? I don't know. I think it is, isn't it?

I don't know. Maybe it doesn't. I don't know. So this is like, if you like these kind of conversations, take a seminar. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Like my into the criminal mind, we were constantly talking about moral blame. Yeah. And how, like if someone has a psychopath, you can explain their behavior, not excuse your behavior, but explain it based on whatever psychopathology they have.

Like at what point are they no longer like responsible?

Responsible,

Or wait, my favorite one was yes. and bio-psychosocial. , Criminology, Dr. Adrian Rain talked about this guy, I'll never forget it. It was this guy who had like a wife and a stepdaughter and he was completely normal guy, and he got a brain tumor and it gave him like pedophilic thoughts and he, I know this one.

Yeah. And he started watching like child [00:46:00] porn. I don't know if he ever did anything to the daughter or not. He had reported

Sadie: like, thoughts in her, I think. Oh yeah. And

Olivia: then they removed the tumor. All the thoughts were gone.

Sadie: and it's like, is that him? Were though his, were those his thoughts? Is that his personality?

Mm-hmm. I think there's not a clear cut, there's just not,

Olivia: I love those types of conversations.

Sadie: Yeah. Yeah. If you also like that type of thing. I have loved taking , philosophy seminars. Yeah.

Olivia: Yeah. I

Sadie: love a marketing class. Mm-hmm. And I loved communications courses. Yeah. So don't be afraid to go outside of your major to take those types of things.

Like you might really like econ, everything. Psychology. Yeah. So yeah. Even if you're like, I love psychology, you can take similar types of courses outside. Outside. Yeah. Like mine was a criminology course. Exactly. But it's like also psych. Grades. Grades. How important are grades?

Speaker: Oh my gosh, you guys, Olivia and I had so much to say that we're gonna split this into two episodes so you guys can get all the psychology advice and information, and it's not two hours long.

if you [00:47:00] wanna keep listening to our psychology advice and all things classes, research, work, life balance, grad school, and more, go ahead and tune in later this week for episode 2 21, part two of this conversation with Olivia. See you in part two.

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