113. How to Make New Friends, Overcome Loneliness, + Combat Social Anxiety with Friendship Expert Dr. Marisa Franco

Sep 8

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Today's guest is Dr. Marisa Franco—a psychologist, author, professor, and friendship expert. In this episode, we discuss the untrue beliefs we hold about platonic relationships, how loneliness prevents us from engaging in relationships, first steps to take in building relationships (and why it will scientifically turn out better than you think it will), how to build your social infrastructure, why early interactions are awkward, working through your social anxiety, and Dr. Franco's thoughts on intro/extroverts, friend groups, and best friends.

Dr. Franco's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drmarisagfranco/

Dr. Franco's Website: https://drmarisagfranco.com/

Mentioned In The Episode…

+ Platonic by Dr. Franco

+ Attached by Amir Levine

+ All About Love by Bell Hooks

+ @daniellebayardjackson

+ @katvellos_author

+ @miriamkirmayer

SHOP GUEST RECOMMENDATIONS: https://amzn.to/3A69GOC

Episode Sponsors

🛋This week's episode is sponsored by Teen Counseling. Teen Counseling is an online therapy program with over 14,000 licensed therapists in their network offering support with depression, anxiety, relationships, trauma, and more via text, talk, and video counseling. Head to teencounseling.com/shepersisted to find a therapist today!

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About She Persisted (formerly Nevertheless, She Persisted)

After a year and a half of intensive treatment for severe depression and anxiety, 18-year-old Sadie recounts her journey by interviewing family members, professionals, and fellow teens to offer self-improvement tips, DBT education, and personal experiences. She Persisted is the reminder that someone else has been there too and your inspiration to live your life worth living.

a note: this is an automated transcription so please ignore any accidental misspellings!

[00:00:00] Sadie: Welcome to she persisted. I'm your host. Sadie sat in a 19 year old from the bay area, studying psychology at the university of pencils. She processed. It is the teen mental health podcast made for teenagers by a team. In each episode, I'll bring you authentic, accessible, and relatable conversations about every aspect of mental wellness you can expect.

[00:00:20] Evidence-based Tina proved resources, coping skills, including lots of DBT insights and education. Each piece of content you consume, she persisted offers you a safe space to feel validated and understood in your struggle while encouraging you to take ownership of your journey and build your life worth living.

[00:00:37] So let's dive in.

[00:00:41] Hello. Hello. And welcome back to another episode. If she persisted, if you are like me, you just started school. Like last week, this week classes are beginning. Maybe you just moved into college, whatever it is, you're probably meeting new people, making new friends. And this episode is your perfect guide for how to do that.

[00:01:01] It's an amazing scientific perspective on what goes into making friends, how are anxiety and internal biases can get in the way of that? It covers loneliness and social anxiety and so many things that were just really enlightening and helpful for me going into this school year that I wish I would've known before.

[00:01:22] Today's guest is Dr. Marissa Franco. She's a psychologist, author, professor, and friendship expert. We discuss so many things in this episode, including untrue beliefs about platonic relationships, how loneliness. Can prevent us from engaging in relationships, the first steps to take in building relationships and why this will turn out better than you think it wor will and how the evidence backs that we talk about how to build your social infrastructure and what that is, white, early interactions are awkward. , we talk about working through social anxiety, and then I got to pick Dr. Franco's brain about all things, introverts, extroverts, fun groups, and best friends. This is again an amazing episode. And I really hope it helps with back to school season and making new friends, meeting new people and easing those, those worries that we all have.

[00:02:08] So if you find this episode helpful, As always make sure to leave a review on apple podcast or Spotify, wherever you listen, subscribe. So you don't miss any upcoming episodes and follow along on social media at, at she persisted podcast. And if you post about listening, make sure to tag me for little repost and a shout out.

[00:02:28] I really appreciate you all listening. And I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I.

[00:02:33] Thank you so much for joining me today, Dr. Franco, I'm so excited to have you on she persisted and dive into all things.

[00:02:38] Friendship.

[00:02:39] Dr. Franco: I'm so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me love what you do.

[00:02:43] Sadie: Thank you. So I would love to hear your background, how you became a psychologist, how you started teaching, how you started specializing in this field and really becoming an expert on friendships and relationships and all of that.

[00:02:58] Dr. Franco: Yeah. So for me personally, I felt like I was. Raised on some ideas about love that, you know, you find this romantic partner who's going to complete you. And that my work was really dependent on finding a romantic partner. And so in my young twenties, when love wasn't going right, I was sad. I was depressed.

[00:03:19] And I turned to my friends and we created this wellness group where every week we met up and we meditated, we cooked, we did yoga and it was so healing. And I realized Sadie. A lot of the reason that I much of the reason that I had taken these breakups so hard is because I had been taught all these incorrect messages about love.

[00:03:38] And I felt like all the love that I had in my life that was platonic didn't matter. And that I was unlovable, even though I had so much love. And so I just felt like this was a larger cultural problem that we weren't talking about enough. And so later on, as I was getting my PhD, once I became a professor, I decided, okay, I guess I'm gonna address.

[00:03:58] Sadie: Yeah. If you were talking to a team now about the kind of expectations or understanding or beliefs about friendships and love and relationships now, what would you say based on all this insight and knowledge that you've gained up to this

[00:04:14] Dr. Franco: point? I would say we need to reflect and revise on our scripts for friendship.

[00:04:20] Right? I think from studying friendship, I've realized how expansive it can. Historically romance was part of friendship more than it was. Marriage people got married because it was practical. And they wanted someone who had good resources and they, the genders were considered too distinct, at least for heterosexual folks, for people to actually have a deep connection with their spouses.

[00:04:40] So people held hands with friends, people carved their names into trees with friends, like friends were really people's most intimate connection. And when I say romance is a part of friendship, I. We can feel passionate about our friends. We can feel like we wanna spend all this time with them. We can idealize them and that's normal and it's been normal throughout history.

[00:04:57] And you know, now I think there's a lot more talk about, you can also choose a friend as your life partner. You don't have to necessarily choose someone that you're having sex with. Right. And so what I would say to your generation, I think. for people looking to connection is to think very expansively about what those connections might look like.

[00:05:16] Yeah.

[00:05:17] Sadie: So I think it'll be helpful to kind of lay the foundation about loneliness and unpacking that, understanding that and how to move away from there. Because it really is like the opposite of friendship and feeling connected, feeling supported is feeling really alone and lonely and misunderstood.

[00:05:35] I would love to understand your, your definition, your perspective on loneliness, what that means. Does it mean an absence of friends? Is it how you're showing up in your relationships? Is it certain dynamics? How do you define that? Before we dive into how to overcome that? Yeah,

[00:05:51] Dr. Franco: that's a great question.

[00:05:52] And I think really relevant for teens because, you know, teenagers are like the loneliest generation we've ever had. Yeah. It's a real, real crisis. You know, I don't wanna be the finger wagging millennial here. Cause y'all, , y'all give it back to us, but to just be factual about it, like yeah. You know, youngest, teenagers are, are, you know, the loneliness that we've ever had.

[00:06:16] Teenagers are lonelier now than teenagers have ever been, and it's quite tragic. And you know, people, I think researchers define loneliness is not having as much social connection as you want, and that can happen. From being isolated, but it can also happen from being around other people and feeling disconnected from them.

[00:06:34] Like I think inauthenticity is also a form of loneliness when you're not actually vulnerable with people and you're not sharing your true self, but sad. Something I like to emphasize about loneliness is from the research I've read. It's not just a feeling loneliness, warps your view of the world. Lonely people think they're more likely to be rejected than.

[00:06:54] And they actually are only people report having less compassion for the human race, liking their roommates, less being more hostile towards others. And so when we're lonely, it kind of affects our, our viewpoint and our mindset. We actually enjoy social interaction, less. We have a desire to connect, but also to withdraw.

[00:07:10] And you can think about this from an evolutionary perspective that. Evolutionarily. If we were alone, we were in danger and separated from our tribe. So we become hypervigilant for threats around us. As much as we wanna connect. We also wanna keep ourselves safe. Yeah. Which is part of the reason why when we're lonely wanna isolate.

[00:07:26] And so that's all to say for me. When I'm in a bad mood, I don't know where it's from. When I think my friends don't really like me. When I think if I reach out to someone they're gonna see it as a burden, or they're not gonna be interested. I know now from the research, or even if I think back to my friendships and I'm, I'm not seeing them as great as I usually do.

[00:07:45] Right. I I'm thinking about flights instead of like the joys of friendship. I know now from the research that I've read that that's my lonely brain speaking. That's not necessarily the truth. And so I'm not necessarily going. Believe all the thoughts that tend to pop up in our brains when we're. That's so

[00:08:02] Sadie: interesting.

[00:08:03] And I definitely relate to what you're saying from various seasons of life and as relationships fluctuate, how do you recommend that people kind of overcome that bias? Is it recognizing it, like you mentioned in rewiring it, is it increasing your relationships? And then with time, those beliefs will shift as well.

[00:08:22] How do you recommend that people kind of combat those. False beliefs, false kind of bias that they're seeing the world through because of loneliness.

[00:08:31] Dr. Franco: This is a great question, Sadie, because of all the interventions to target loneliness, the most successful, aren't actually about connecting people because if you're lonely and you try to connect people often, you'll still feel a little bit lonely.

[00:08:43] Yeah. Cuz of how loneliness affects our brains. But, but they've actually focused on trying to change or reframe some of our thoughts when we're lonely. So char it's like. Almost like C B T cognitive behavioral therapy, where you're sort of trying to challenge some of this like negative view of the world that you have when you're lonely.

[00:08:59] Something that I like to and suggest to lonely people is think about in the week when you're most lonely and reach out to someone to connect before that happens. If it tends to be on the weekend, you know? Yeah. Reaching out on a Friday, for example, because again, when you're lonely, it's actually the.

[00:09:16] It's time to reach out to me is just like, they're gonna reject me. They're not gonna be interested. Right? Yeah. And so reaching out before you tend to get to that place of loneliness, the other thing, you know, loneliness can be self-reinforcing because of how it affects how we view the world. And we tend to become more self-absorbed even in conversation with lonely people, lonely people actually like their conversation partner, less, they, they talk more about themselves.

[00:09:38] They show us interest in other people. This is all sad. We don't wanna blame the victim here. There's a lot of systemic reasons why we're lonely. But if you could just, instead of focusing on yourself and how people are treating you and how they might protect you, actually, what ask yourself, what can I do to make another person feel like they belong?

[00:09:53] Cuz when we do that, like pro-social behaviors, for example, which is just kind of being kind and thoughtful towards other people, that's linked to feeling more connected. So can I reach out to someone to check in about them, right? Yeah. Can I do something nice for my friend? Right. And the last bit of advice that I have is.

[00:10:11] When you approach your loneliness passively, when you just start scrolling on social media or watching TV, it tends to get worse because those sort of activities encourage increased lethargy that makes it harder to then get outta that state and connect with people. Yeah. So just doing something more active when you're lonely, go for a walk, take a shower that can help sort of stop the, the loneliness spiral from continuing.

[00:10:36] Sadie: Yeah.

[00:10:37] Two today's episode is brought to you by teen counseling, social anxiety and loneliness can be really overwhelming and a great way to get support through that and be held accountable is therapy. So if you haven't heard of teen counseling before it is better helps branch of counseling and therapy specifically for teenagers.

[00:10:56] It's an online therapy program with 14,000 licensed therapists within the network. They offer support on things like depression, anxiety, relationships, trauma, and so much more. And it's via talk text and video counseling. So depending on what level of support you're looking for, they can meet your needs.

[00:11:13] It's a great way to get help really quickly and not have to deal with local waiting lists or finding providers and all of that kind of stuff. So what you're going to do is you're going to go to teen counseling.com/she persisted. You're gonna fill out a survey about what you are hoping to work on in therapy.

[00:11:28] So again, maybe it's relationship, so maybe it's anxiety, et C. and based on that, you're matched with a therapist that specialize in that area. Then if you are under 18, you put in a parent or guardians email to provide payment and give consent for treatment. None of your information in that survey is disclosed because HIPAA is enacted.

[00:11:46] It's just that they can again give consent to treatment and provide payment. But yeah, if you would like. Start your therapy journey or start meeting with a new therapist. You can head to teen counseling.com/she persisted to find a therapist today.

[00:12:00] Are there any other things that are like behaviors or patterns that increase loneliness, then you mentioned getting outside, getting active, taking a shower, as far as things that decrease those feelings of lethargy and loneliness. Are there any other things that listeners can be aware of within their routines that might be adding to those feelings?

[00:12:19] Dr. Franco: Yeah. I mean, definitely. Why is your generation so lonely? TikTok social. Yeah. It's I mean, social media is complicated cuz the research finds that it can make you feel more connected if you use it to reach out to others and plan in-person interactions. But if you use it to replace it. in person interacts, which is what most people do because before the TV, we would spend our leisure time actually hanging out with people in person

[00:12:41] Yeah. Then we got the TV and now we have social media. So it's for most of us, it, it does replace time. We would've might have otherwise spent actually media of people in, in person if it were like decades ago. And that unfortunately is going to make you bone and the complication again, one complication.

[00:12:57] If you're just scrolling through social media, that makes you lonely. If you're more active about. You can become less lonely, like commenting on people's pages and posting something, for example. So that's why there's like nuance here. Like it depends on how you use it, but overall, even though we can't say correlation is causation 2012 was when everything cha like teenagers be started to become so much more de disconnected and it's continued to happen.

[00:13:21] And this is true in like 36 out of 38 countries, I believe from, from one study. Right. And we saw. There's a study that looked at at why, and, and there's this deterioration of the social self, which is like all the things that help us connect with people, like feeling good about ourselves or, you know, reaching out to others.

[00:13:38] There's a deterioration of that happening. And, and the study's actually fine that one of the way social media is doing that is if you're on your phone all the time, you're not looking into people's eyes. And that's how you develop empathy, like eye contact. And they actually. did a study of people that went to this camp, young people that went to this camp where they couldn't use their phones.

[00:13:56] And by the end, they took this implicit measure. It was like an unconscious measure of empathy. And they actually increased in just one week and their level of empathy for other people. So like spend some time away from your phone, basically. Yeah. But also used that time intentionally to like spend it with people you.

[00:14:12] Sadie: Is there, obviously everyone's different. There are introverts, there are extroverts. Is there like a, an amount of time that you're spending with other people or even that, that you're not where you're like, okay, this could be problematic. Like, it seems like this person is isolating more. I would recommend that they spend more time with other people.

[00:14:33] Is, is there like a number or some kind of metric that listeners can be like, okay, wait, I'm way off from that. Maybe I should check in with myself.

[00:14:42] Dr. Franco: I, I don't know if I can give a specific set of time. But, and it's hard for me to even say, cuz from what I know about loneliness and how it can manifest as these like symptoms, like yeah.

[00:14:55] Thinking people are gonna reject you. Right. I think that we don't always know when we're lonely. Like it, we start being in a bad mood before we could actually be like, oh, I'm lonely. Right? Mm-hmm we start thinking other people are gonna reject us. So I think it's more so. When do you start, notice yourself becoming really cynical about social interaction and feeling insecure about social interaction or just being in a bad mood that you can't identify.

[00:15:21] Like you don't know why that's happening. Like these are all the signs that okay. Maybe you are starting to feel a little bit lonely.

[00:15:29] Sadie: Okay. So for listeners who have heard these, all these things that we've said, and like, okay, definitely lonely. That's what's happening? Where do you go from there? How do you combat that loneliness?

[00:15:40] How do you start making, building these relationships, creating friends, building this community? What is your advice there?

[00:15:49] Dr. Franco: So, Sadie, we are so afraid of rejection. And according to the research, it's a lot less likely to happen than we think. Yeah. But the only way that you're gonna know is if you put yourself out there, right?

[00:16:02] So for example, I went to Mexico city solo trip. I know there's a study on the liking gap when strangers interact and they predict how much does the other person like me. They tend to underestimate how much people like them and the more self critical they are, the more pronounced this gap is. So I'm just sort of like, I am here in Mexico.

[00:16:21] Oh, city I O P transition tend to be particularly open to friendships. So for you, you're in college, freshmen transfer students, right? For me, I was in Mexico city, other travelers. Right. I know that that's the place where I, where I'm even less likely to be rejected cuz they have a need for social interaction, just like I do.

[00:16:36] So like there's this guy sitting next to me to coffee shops, speaking American English. And I just say, oh yeah like, oh, where are you from? You know? And, and I just asked him like, oh, I bet later it's like a language exchange. Do you wanna. He comes. I meet people at a language exchange and I asked them like, Hey, you know, do you wanna meet up for dinner?

[00:16:51] We went to, to this wrestling match. Everybody said, yes. And so that one of my biggest tips for connection is treat like you because when you do, according to the science of something called the acceptance prophecy, when researchers manipulated people to think they were liked, even though it wasn't true, that made people open agreeable warm, and they'd actually become more liked, right?

[00:17:14] Assume people like. Find people that you like already and you have to initiate. Don't just wait for them to ask you to be their friend, cuz that's actually related to being more lonely over time. When you think friendship happens without effort. Whereas people that see friendship as taking effort are less likely to be lonely over time.

[00:17:30] So make the ask and it's gonna feel really scary for you. Right? But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it. And that also doesn't mean. Your body telling you that they're not gonna be open to it is, is the truth. But the only way that you're gonna know is for you to actually do it. So make the ask for someone that you've been wanting to connect with.

[00:17:47] Sadie: Once you have made that initial intro, what are the next steps to, to take, to continue to maintain that relationship, to continue to build that friendship, especially if you are still feeling lonely and you still have that bias of like, Rather not like I think that I might still be rejected or that I might still be disliked.

[00:18:09] There's still that barrier. When you haven't fully established that relationship, what is your advice there?

[00:18:15] Dr. Franco: Absolutely. This is where I like to suggest something called building your social infrastructure. So researchers have found. For friendships to happen organically. You need, this is from a sociologist, Rebecca Adams.

[00:18:27] She. You need continuous unplanned interaction and shared vulnerability. You need to meet up repeatedly over time and stop being guarded, right? And so you can create social infrastructure by signing up for things that are repeated over time, extracurricular activities, book clubs, you know, even class, if you're like actually conversing with people and sharing something, that's a little more vulnerable about yourself because that then you capitalize on something called the mere exposure effect.

[00:18:56] Which is our, to like people. This is completely unconscious just because they're familiar to us. So a study that that's based on this researchers planted women in a psychology class for varying numbers of classes, wo people in the class didn't even remember any of these women, but they liked the woman who showed up for the most classes, 20% more than the woman who didn't show up for any, this is completely unconscious.

[00:19:17] So what does that mean? That once you sign up for this continuous event over time, The first time you get there the first month, the first two months, it's gonna be awkward. Me exposure effect. Hasn't set in my issue when I was in college, I show up once and I'm like, nobody's talking to me. I'm not going down.

[00:19:34] I'm done. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But you, you know, commit to showing up for two to three months. With the awareness that it's inherently awkward in the beginning. Like that's how our brains are wired. Be suspicious. You don't trust them yet. They're not familiar. Right. But that doesn't mean it's gonna continue to be like this over time.

[00:19:50] So give it time and space to develop. And as you're doing that, you wanna generate. Start to generate exclusivity with some people in the group. Exclusivity means I have experiences and interactions with you that I don't share with other people in this group. So let's say you're at the book club like, oh, would you wanna like meet up for tea before the, before our book club next week or after, and then you're just inherently gonna keep seeing them cuz you have that continuous UN plan interaction.

[00:20:13] So it's just a little less scary and you don't have to, you don't have to pull as much.

[00:20:19] Sadie: Social anxiety. One of the like biggest barriers that I think people experience in initiating these relationships and these friendships, you talked about making the commitment to continue to show up, especially in the beginning when it is awkward.

[00:20:32] And you're like, I would rather just leave and avoid. What is your advice and tips there? Is it just doing the opposite and remembering like it will get better. The anxiety, the awkwardness will decrease. Are there different ways that you can mentally prepare yourself? Are there different biases that you can listen for in your thoughts and beliefs where you're like, actually that's not correct.

[00:20:54] I know this is the loneliness speaking to me. What, what is your advice for people that are really struggling with social anxiety, but, but want to build new friendships and want to get to know new people?

[00:21:05] Dr. Franco: Yeah. So social anxiety kind of comes from the sense that you're not good enough, right? Yeah. And people are gonna find out.

[00:21:12] So that's the struggle of social anxiety. And the irony though, is that when we have this sense that we're not good enough, it triggers this confirmation bias where we're looking for all the signs that people are rejecting us and ignoring signs of acceptance. Yeah. So I will say. one to work to overcome.

[00:21:28] Social anxiety is to be intentional about taking in moments of safety and acceptance like, oh, this person talked, you know, was interested in this conversation with me. Let me take a moment. What does that feel like for me? How do I absorb that in my body? Right. Because fundamentally our, our perception of how worthy we are, according to the Soter theory, which kind of argues that self-esteem is not about how you feel about yourself.

[00:21:49] It's your gauge of how you think others view you. So the more that you can take in that. Value you that's gonna help decrease your social anxiety over time. And so that's really important. The other thing I would say is if you're focus, if you're socially anxious, you're insecure, right? Any of the, any of the ways that, that some of our own issues might harm us, we're often so focused on ourselves and how.

[00:22:12] we come on, I'm looking too much. Right. Am I coming off as weird, awkward, cringy, I'm gonna get all quiet. All of a sudden. Right. And, and that sabotages us because connecting with people is about making other people feel like they belong, like focusing on other people. And so think about what, there's this interesting study that about people with social anxiety, they have like these safety behaviors, which is the behaviors they do.

[00:22:34] To preemptively, avoid rejection, like not talking or not engaging or blabbering. And so what researchers said to like, just give up those safety behaviors the. Tim's actually feeling more connected to the people with social anxiety. And so I think just letting yourself like fail a little bit, you don't have to be perfect.

[00:22:54] You're focused on the other person. What can you do to show interesting the other person? So you can get your mind a little bit off of you and a little bit of off your own. Self-consciousness. . I

[00:23:03] Sadie: love that. And I think that's such a realistic thing to do in interactions and so helpful to get yourself out of your own head.

[00:23:10] I I've never heard that tip before, but I think it's a really is a game changer in, in all relationships. And even if it's. like a professional relationship expressing interest in the other person, if you're networking. I, like you said, that will do so much for the relationship and how they think about you in the long term.

[00:23:27] It's it's really is just a game changer. Absolutely.

[00:23:30] This week's episode is brought to you by Amazon prime student.

[00:23:34] That is right this semester. I am working with Amazon prime student. I'm so excited because I love Amazon prime. I buy so many things today. I Amazon prime myself, some Roach spray because there was a Roach in our dorm kitchen. So much fun. Love Philadelphia, love college. Anyways, we love Amazon prime. It is the most efficient, amazing, quick way to get all of your shopping needs met when at college.

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[00:24:51] That is prime student.co/join student. I would love to hear your thoughts on introverts and extroverts. Do you think that's like a real thing that's adding to relationships and friendships and kind of just adding to the mix? Or do you think it's this loneliness kind of showing up these safety behaviors or something else that's kind of adding to people feeling like they have different social batteries.

[00:25:12] Dr. Franco: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, how you put it, Sadie is, is a great, a way to put it. You have different social batteries, you know, stimulation, you relate to social stimulation differently, right? Yeah. Extroverts. They can be in big groups for longer periods of time. Introverts. They like to have small circles, but I also often think we conflate iion with like social anxiety or not being competent.

[00:25:33] We're not. Skill of reaching out to people and not neither of those things are true, right? Like I'm an introvert and a friendship expert. Oprah's an introvert . Yeah. So I wouldn't use, like, I introversion as a crutch to say I'm just bad at social interaction, cuz actually introverts have some really good skills.

[00:25:49] Introverts tend to be better listeners. For example, people that are. What's called openers in the research. They get other people to open up. They have more close friendships because of that. Right. They tend to, to develop more intimacy with people over time. And so I think if you're an introvert, it's just about leaning into your strengths.

[00:26:05] Like I used to feel weird about not being like a. Party party, but yeah, you know, some people like someone who's that party party all the time. Right. That the way you show show up in the social world is also okay. Like being quieter, being more of a listener, being an observer, like people also really, really value that too.

[00:26:23] So I think if you're an introvert, like you don't necessarily have to change who you are, but you have to acknowledge what are the strengths that come out of my interpretation and how can. Harness those right by maybe setting up a one-on-one introduction where I, I typically tend to shine versus having, pushing myself to go out into this big group setting.

[00:26:42] Sadie: The idea of like the one-on-one interaction versus the, the big groups. Do you think there is a better way to do things like trying to get to know someone individually first? Is it better to be in that big group and show up over and over again, you talked about kind of having meetings with someone that is also showing up in that repeated big group setting.

[00:27:01] What are your thoughts there? Is there like certain group dynamics that will be more effective to getting to know someone versus like going to a giant concert. 30,000 other people.

[00:27:10] Dr. Franco: Yeah. That's a great question. And I think it, it tends to be a little bit of both. You know, the benefit of, of the groups is mere exposure effect is happening when our friends or friends with each other, such as, like, when we have a friend group, our relationships are more likely to sustain over time because one person in the group can reach out and then everybody still friends.

[00:27:28] Right? Yeah. So that's awesome. So I am pro group, but I would say that to really de like, you could feel good. Around the group, but you could also feel like I can't identify anyone in this group in particular who feels like, like a close friend to me. Mm-hmm . And so you also, if you want someone to really feel like your friend, you might have to.

[00:27:47] Side of the group, one on one, getting to know each other, like, like how I talked about generating exclusivity really important for feeling connected.

[00:27:55] Sadie: What are your thoughts on best friends? Is that like a real thing that you've seen in the literature where you're like, yes, someone has a primary best friend that they go to the most is there is that.

[00:28:06] Add to long term relationships and longevity, or is it actually doesn't because it closes you off to other relationships and you're like, this is just like, not even a real thing. Best friends are changing constantly. Like, what are your thoughts there?

[00:28:20] Dr. Franco: I, I like best friends, not, not saying that everybody needs one, but I'll, I'll share my point about liking best friends because in friend.

[00:28:30] all of our expectations are so ambiguous, right? Like I'm not marrying you. So I don't know if you're my confidant. I don't know if you're the person I call to move. I don't know if you're the person I call when I have a flat tire, you know, mm-hmm and so I think if there's a mutual investment in like we're each other's best friends, it clarifies, expectations that we're free to expect things of each other. And that expectation when it's given to someone who's also similarly invested can actually deepen the relationship like giving and receiving support. That's something that's linked to deepen relationships over time. And so I like best friendship for the clarity of expectations, but again, I think you can access.

[00:29:06] This with other friends, if you just like, have a conversation where you're just like, you know, are you someone who likes to help friends move or like, you know, how are you with instrumental support and friendship? Like, are you someone who likes to give more emotional support, instrumental support, as in like doing things for your friends mm-hmm versus like supporting them emotionally.

[00:29:22] Like you can. Kind of just get us to figure out what sort of support each of those friends can give you. I think I also like best friends because I don't know why we don't understand this about romantic well, spousal partnerships that That you can have a spouse and also like have a community and still have friends.

[00:29:40] And that's actually like good for your relationship because you're gonna be able to like, be more resilient when things go wrong in your relationship when you have an outside community. But with, I think with best friends, we know that like, if I have a best friend, I still have other friends. It's not like this.

[00:29:54] Like you're gonna be the only place that I invest my time and energy and everyone else is gonna fall away. So it's not like the same. I don't know, exclusive orientation that we have when some people have when they have a spouse. And so I do appreciate that. It's a little less territorial. I mean, it's still territorial, right.

[00:30:10] Of people are like, I'm your best friend, not them but you're like, yeah, I expect you to have other friends. Indeed. Mm-hmm

[00:30:16] Sadie: I love that. And I think that's such an important thing, like distinction to make and something to be aware of. For people that want to continue to learn about loneliness and friendship and these best practices and kind of just continue to educate themselves because I feel like so much of what you've mentioned, isn't commonly known it.

[00:30:34] Isn't something that you. Think of when you're like, okay, I'm gonna make a friend. I thinking of the episode of big bang theory when I don't know if you watched that show, but I love it. Well, Sheldon wants to make friends with this guy, Barry, because he wants to borrow some like physics machine thing at the university.

[00:30:52] And he goes to the store and he's like, I need a book on how to make friends. And that guy is like, I think that's in the kids section. And it's some like animal. Like, that's hilarious. Like the Platypus makes friends at the zoo or no, it's a, maybe like a two can or something like that. And he is like, I think I can extrapolate the principles and translate this to other relationships.

[00:31:11] Then he tries to make friends with like a three year old girl. And he's like, would you like to go to the zoo sometimes? And his friend is like, no, like interaction is. Over. It's just such, such a funny episode, but it's so funny. Obviously, kids, books aren't necessarily the place to go, but there has to be somewhere where people can learn about these tips and tricks and get this support and making friendships and new relationships.

[00:31:35] What is your advice when people come to you and are like, what are the resources? How can I continue to expand my knowledge here? Maybe it's like social anxiety group. Maybe it's a podcast. Maybe it's someone to follow on Instagram. What do you recommend?

[00:31:47] Dr. Franco: Well, thank you for asking perfect way for me to share that.

[00:31:50] I have a book that debuted September 6th, probably around the time episode release. Yeah. Called platonic how the science of attachment can help you make and keep friends. It's like research, digestible research, Facebook on how to make and keep friends. And Other books that I really like, they're not necessarily related to friends, but I think they're really good at understanding relationships attached by am MI Levine and all about love by bell hooks.

[00:32:14] Okay. I think those are some really great books. We have a couple of friendship influencers that I like Danielle bay or Jackson she's on Instagram, cat, bellows, Miriam kuey. They all post really helpful tips on friendship. My website, www dot Dr.

[00:32:28] MEA G franco.com for a free quiz that assesses your strengths and weaknesses as a friend.

[00:32:33] Sadie: Awesome. Well, I will definitely link all of those in the show notes to wrap things up. If there was one thing you wish that the general public knew about making friends, that you feel like people aren't aware of and that they can take away from this episode and, and implement what would that.

[00:32:50] Dr. Franco: there like all so much research has shown me that the world is safer than we predict. And people are more likely to accept this than we think. I talked about the liking gap. There's also research on something called the beautiful mess effects that finds that when we're vulnerable, we tend to, to assume that people are judging.

[00:33:09] That's more than they actually underestimate how much they appreciate that vulnerability as an act of authenticity. When we affirm other people, we share how much we like and value them. We think it comes off as more awkward than it does. Yeah. We underestimate how much people appreciate it. And so I think just being open to the idea that.

[00:33:25] Some of your assumptions that our bodies hold our brains, hold as humans, we have this negativity bias. We clinging more to negative information that people are gonna reject you, that people don't really like. You just be open to the possibility that that's not true, but recognize that the only true way that your body will register, that people are more loving and open than you think they are is if you actually go out there and take the risk of intimacy, ask people to hang.

[00:33:50] Be a little bit more vulnerable and then register when they succeed in your body, take in that safety and feel it, you can begin to combat that negativity bias and make friends.

[00:34:02] Sadie: I love that so much. And I think, yeah, just perfectly wraps of everything we talked about and is so. Applic easy to apply in your relationships.

[00:34:11] The step you can take, and I think is a great reminder for people that are struggling with baking friendships or getting out of that space of loneliness and are experiencing all of that bias. So it's so, so helpful. Thank you so much for joining me today, Dr. Franco, I'm so excited for everyone to listen to this episode.

[00:34:27] I know it's gonna be so valuable and yeah. Thank you for sitting down with me. Thank you so much for having me. Of course.

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