139. A Therapist's Guide to Why We Get Stuck & Ways to Move Forward feat. Britt Frank

Mar 16

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Today's guest is Britt Frank—a licensed psychotherapist, trauma specialist, speaker, award-winning adjunct instructor, and author of The Science of Stuck. In this episode, we discuss why people get stuck in the first place, signs you may be getting stuck with your personal goals or relationships, the truth behind laziness, the neuroscience behind getting stuck and pursuing goals, how to set and prioritize achievable goals, how to make promises to yourself that reduce shame, and tips that stop you from being stuck.

Britt Frank's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/brittfrank/?hl=en

Mentioned In The Episode…

+ Britt's Website

+ Britt's Book The Science of Stuck

+ Atomic Habits

SHOP GUEST RECOMMENDATIONS: https://amzn.to/3A69GOC

About She Persisted (formerly Nevertheless, She Persisted)

After a year and a half of intensive treatment for severe depression and anxiety, 18-year-old Sadie recounts her journey by interviewing family members, professionals, and fellow teens to offer self-improvement tips, DBT education, and personal experiences. She Persisted is the reminder that someone else has been there too and your inspiration to live your life worth living.

a note: this is an automated transcription so please ignore any accidental misspellings!

Sadie: [00:00:00] Welcome to She Persisted. I'm your host, Sadie Sutton, a 19 year old from the Bay Area studying psychology at the University of Penn. She Persisted is the Teen Mental Health Podcast made for teenagers by a teen. In each episode, I'll bring you authentic, accessible, and relatable conversations about every aspect of mental wellness.

You can expect evidence-based, teen approved resources, coping skills, including lots of D B T insights and education in. Each piece of content you consume, she persisted, Offers you a safe space to feel validated and understood in your struggle, while encouraging you to take ownership of your journey and build your life worth living.

So let's dive in this week on She persisted.

Britt: never start with a why question If you're stuck. Instead of why, ask yourself what is someone or something, or some place that makes my brain feel less freaked out, a little less threatened, a little less activated, and then use.

\ I know why I'm anxious. And now after 20 years of therapy, I understand [00:01:00] why I have certain patterns, but like knowing why I have them doesn't change them.

Knowing why helps give me insight and it's great, but. Knowing who, what, where, and when makes me feel safer or a little less bad. That's useful for getting moving

hello and welcome back to She Persisted. I'm so excited. I say that every single week. I'm recording intros back to back right now in advance, and every single time I start I'm like, I'm so excited. But I truly do love these episodes and conversations and I can't wait for you to listen to them because I work so hard on recording these and.

Putting this resource together. So I get really excited when I'm recording these intros and sharing them with you. If you're new here, my name is Sadie Sutton. I am a sophomore at the University of Pennsylvania. I'm studying psychology, and I've just added a minor in consumer psych, which is marketing, because I realized I like marketing from marketing.

She resistance. So if you're new here, that's a little bit about me. I went to intensive treatment for a year and a half for severe depression and anxiety, and then after recovering, I started she persisted and have really tried to [00:02:00] create the resource that I wish I had when I was struggling. So that's a little bit about me and the show.

We have a very exciting guest today talking about a very important topic. Today's guest is Brit Frank. She is an expert in the science of being stuck. I feel like this is such a common sentiment from teens and young adults and college students, which is that you don't necessarily know where you want to go in life. You are feeling overwhelmed at a standstill, and this is exactly what Brit specializes in.

So we talk all about what it means to be emotionally stuck. We talk about how to shift that, especially from a behavioral perspective, what you need to know if you are feeling stuck, how to get out of that head space and so much more. So, very important topic, very important episodes. Something I've struggled with at many points, and so I'm so excited to have Brit on the podcast to shed some light here.

So with that, let's dive in.

Sadie: Well thank you so much for joining me today, Brett. I'm so excited to have you, and she persist. Hi. Thanks for having me on. Of course. So as we're recording this, we [00:03:00] are in the new year, which is a time when I feel like a lot of people are either feeling super motivated or they're feeling very stuck and unmotivated, especially as they look back on the past year or what their original goals were.

And this is kind of your expertise and where you know what to do. , so talk to me about what it means to be stuck and, , how you came to. Find this like common issue that, so people are dealing with, , and, and how they were describing it and how you were able to identify it.

Britt: When I talk. Duck , I, this is so important to me to disclaim. I am not talking about geopolitical unrest or systemic racism or abuse.

Mm-hmm. . So if that is the situation, I do not consider that being stuck. I consider that being oppressed or being in a categorically unsafe environment. So that's my disclaimer. My work focuses on, there's no logical reason why you are not able to do the thing you wanna do. So like, I wanna get fit, I wanna start a business, I wanna quit smoking, I wanna start doing the thing, or stop taking the thing, or whatever.[00:04:00]

Nevertheless, this giant gap between what we say we want. and what we actually do, like what we say are good outcome, and we tend to fall and get stuck in the middle. Mm-hmm. and I, you know, how did I get on this work? Well, I was a drug addict and a hot mess of a human being, so when I share, it's not like here's a composite of all the clients I've helped.

It's like, okay. I was. Hot mess express. And I bangs my head around trying lots of different things. And when I finally found things that worked, I'm like, everyone needs to know about this so they don't have to try 50 stupid things. And so my work really focuses on cherry picking what I think are the most useful resources, the best research.

It's not like, here's how to get unstuck. According to me. It's like, hey, here's what, like this doctor who did the, the research said, mm-hmm . But you don't have to read the research. Just here are the bottom, I'm a big, here are the bottom lines kind of

Sadie: person. Yeah. So what were these things that you came across in your own life where you're like, this is really helpful.

This is really effective. [00:05:00] This is allowing me to move forward. , like you just mentioned,

Britt: so this thing that I learned is the key and it's don't set. This sounds so counterintuitive, but don't set goals. Okay. Like we were all taught set goals, rah, rah goals. Yay.

Goals. actually setting goals sets us up for failure because goals automatically assume that right now we're not enough. We're not there. We're not where we wanna be. And then once you achieve a goal, then you're done. Then what? And we all know once people get what they want, they tend to be dissatisfied.

So instead of a goal, what we want to do is focus on systems. And this is James Clear atomic habit stuff, and it's brilliant.

Sadie: I love that book. Love. So, so, so good. That.

Britt: But if you are stuck and you like need a resource, you know, obviously other than mine, which is bias. James, Claire, atomic Habits two thumbs up, 10 out of 10 recommends.

Mm-hmm. because he says if you focus on your systems, you don't have to worry about this. So I think of it like sitting in your car, you can dream about where you wanna go. You can text your friends and tell them where your. Are gonna go. You can imagine in a affirm where you [00:06:00] wanna go, but like until you actually start driving, you're not going anywhere.

So setting the goal is sitting in park and the G P S is a system that gets you there. So if your goal is to get fit, your system might be every morning, wake up to really loud music across the room, and then have your shoes near the door, like create ways of helping you do it. So goals are out, systems are in.

Sadie: So if someone, their goal was to try and journal every night, and they wanted to come at this from a way that was more effective. They're feeling really stuck with where they're at now. What would your recommendations be?

, getting super, super clear, not setting a goal, , but what would, your best advice be?

Britt: And again, like it's not realistic to not set a goal. Yeah. Cause in order to set a system, you need to know where you're going, but it's like mm-hmm. set the goals and then forget about them. Yes. So if your goal is to journal, my big thing with, with systems or goals or anything is don't lie to yourself.

Like, if you have spent the last three months being [00:07:00] depressed, isolated, disconnected, feeling like crap, you're not gonna get up at six in the morning and journal for 20 minutes. Mm-hmm. . And that's not your fault. And it doesn't make you a bad person. , but like maybe are you willing to bullet 0.3 things with 10 words max?

Are you willing to spend not even two minutes? Are you willing to spend 30 seconds writing down three bullet points? Yeah. And if the answer to that is no, okay. Are you willing to do one bullet point? No one likes this cuz it's super like no one's gonna live.

Tweet that they wrote one B bullet point. Yeah. Yeah. But that's how we get where we wanna go. , if your goal with a mental health thing is I wanna use more social support so I can feel less anxious, you're not gonna go to a thing where you have to talk to people. It's not gonna happen.

Mm-hmm. . So maybe you start by just lurking on an online community and listen to what they're saying and then maybe. You comment and then maybe then you interact and then maybe you meet people in real life or whatever. But we need to get these systems down to as micro Yes as we can. Yeah. Because the [00:08:00] micro yeses get done, the big things they don't.

And then we stay stuck, and then we feel shame, and then shame creates more stuck. Mm-hmm. , which we

Sadie: know. So with the micro yeses, is there a certain number you're going for? Because obviously if you're like, okay, I'm gonna actually aim for the same thing I originally was, but just break it down to 50 smaller things, it's gonna be difficult to be consistent, to remember to check off all those things.

So what is like your happy medium when you're working with clients or what you recommend to your audience When they have something they want to improve on, but they don't want to get burnt out or? Or overwhelmed really quickly.

Britt: Yeah. And again, we were all taught if you wanna achieve a goal, break it down and look at all the steps.

Yeah. But like from a neuroscience perspective, if you're writing down 50 microsteps, your nervous system's gonna go into freeze. Yeah. And so focusing on 50 Steps is gonna do the same thing as saying, I wanna run a marathon. Mm-hmm. . And so, again, no one likes this. My clients hate it. Cause I, you know, I work with high-achieving, high-functioning people.

They're like, rah rah, let's go. I'm [00:09:00] like, yes, but we're not going. going this way. Yeah. Just focus on what step is next. What's next. Mm-hmm. . And I hated that when I was in, , drug addiction recovery. I hated my sponsor cuz I was like, no, no, no. I want, I want the big picture. I, I wanna see the board. She's like, honey , you're not going anywhere.

Yeah. Just focused on the next Yes. That you can get to and I promise you that will work. And I hated it. And she was, . And that is in fact what you do. Don't focus on the 50 steps. Focus on what is your next yes. And then as you do that, your yeses will get bigger. Cuz the pushback is, well if I'm only you know, doing one bullet point, how am I ever gonna get there?

Well, you're gonna get there a lot faster than if you do nothing and you're not gonna be doing micro yeses forever. You do micro yeses until you build up enough of what you need. So then you can go for those bigger things. But like all the brain chemicals that we need to do, the big things get dumped in our tank by doing the.

So just focus on what's next. my license plate on my car even says what's next. [00:10:00] I love

Sadie: it. So if you could like really boil down, simply explain that neuroscience process that happens when we either stuck in trying to pursue this goal and it's not working mm-hmm. . And then when we do have these systems, we're having these small yeses and we are making progress.

Like what's that difference there that makes it effective and sustainable? , from a neuroscience perspective. .

Britt: Yeah. And this was so helpful when I learned our brains are not wired for productivity or happiness or success or love. Like our brains are wired to conserve energy to find like the least amount of energy units possible to achieve a goal and to keep us alive.

Mm-hmm. . So if you and I were having this conversation and there was a lion in the corner of my office. , I'm not even gonna be able to speak. Like there's a reason your mouth goes dry when you're terrified. Right. And I'm gonna be sweating and my heart's gonna be racing, and I am going to be literally frozen to my chair.

Mm-hmm. , when you see the lion, it's obvious. It's like, well, duh. Of course she's not moving. There's a lion there. Mm-hmm. . And the problem that we [00:11:00] get into with human ing is that you can't see the lions. But they're everywhere. Global pandemic and what's gonna happen to me health-wise And what about the economy?

I mean, there's, you know, family things. My genetic predisposition for things. The problem is, is we forget that survival brain has not changed. It's just the things around us have and the world evolved a lot faster than our brain's capacity to process. All of the information. Mm-hmm. . And so the thing that happens is people come into me, they learn the neuroscience.

Okay, got it. Survival physiology. When there's a lion, my brain will either shut down or freeze, or put me in the state of fight or flight, and that looks like anxiety, panic, you know, running around, whatever. And people will say, well, why is my brain doing this? Clearly I'm safe. I'm sitting in my room and there's nothing wrong.

And asking that question, why? Why is gonna keep you stuck? Like, I don't know why? Because brain science. Mm-hmm. . So rather than fighting with your brain a better question than why is this [00:12:00] happening? Is what is the smallest yes I can get to that will help my brain feel a little less freaked out. And our brains like small.

Anything that's too much, too fast, too soon is gonna feel really threatening and likely put us in that physiological state of either shutdown or over. .

Sadie: Mm-hmm. . So why do you think that people make such ambitious and extravagant and huge goals? Even if they're aware, like it's not effective, it's not gonna be sustainable.

Why do you think we still set these insanely unachievable, potentially achievable, but just if you just set the goal and don't outline the steps. Unachievable goals.

Britt: Yeah, I, I don't wanna demonize social media cuz I use it. I love it. Yeah. And it has great power for good however. Mm-hmm. , when I scroll through TikTok, I kind of wanna quit humoring cuz I'm like, wow, everyone is so good at cooking and crafting, and decorating and.

Businessing and whatever the thing is, like when you're looking on social media, you're seeing a [00:13:00] curated feed of people who are at mile 100. Yeah. When you are putting on your shoes to get started. And that's really discouraging and you know, everybody's crossing the finish line celebration, started with a lacing up at the start.

But again, it's not fun to be like huffing and puffing at mile one, but it's really hard to look online. Feel like, what's the point? Why bother? If I don't have this big, huge thing, then I should just quit? I get that. So I have to limit what I look at when I'm wanting to get, you know, things done and when I wanna focus on systems.

Cause otherwise I'll get discouraged. And that's, that's human. That is just human.

Sadie: What are the reasons that people get this point of being stuck? Obviously, if they've set a big goal and. Aren't able to achieve it, but are there other mental health challenges that can lead to this consistent feeling of being like, I am not going anywhere.

Things are not shifting, I'm not seeing any progress. , in addition to just setting these goals [00:14:00] and not being able to see progress in them. .

Britt: Sure. And the thing with the mental health stuff, and again, I've had mental health challenges my whole life. I take meds, I go to therapy, I do all of the things,

But what again, we're not taught about mental health symptoms is that they're not a sign that were broken or defective or weak or that there's anything wrong with us. Again, I don't know why my brain decided at like infancy to go immediately into depression. At like the slightest breeze. I don't know why that happened.

Genetics, sure. Family stuff, whatever. Trauma. Yep. But instead of sitting here wrestling with why am I anxious and why am I depressed it shouldn't be this hard, the mental health challenges. Are a lot easier to not get over, but to move through and with, if we stop beefing ourselves up for having them.

Like it's not my anxiety or my depression that keeps me from moving. It's my story about my anxiety and my depression. Yeah. So like I know personally I have to do some [00:15:00] accommodations, taking meds, going to therapy. There are certain people, places and things. You know, I don't avoid all triggers, but there are certain situations.

I know if I'm doing this, I'm gonna feel like that. Mm-hmm. and I either need to plan for that and not expect myself. Like holidays are a great example. If you've just spent all of this time with your family and your family is not healthy, expecting your January to look like nailing gold is not. Yeah. Is not realistic.

Like it's just not. So use January to recover from December and then maybe February you feel a little bit better. So I really don't believe it's our mental health challenges that limit us, obviously, again, assuming that you have resources, enough safety, access to the things that you need. , it's not that.

that limits us. Yeah. It's what we tell ourselves. Like this means that, I guess I just have an addictive personality, so I can't, blah. My A D H ADHD keeps me from blah, and that's legit. It's like we wanna validate like, yes, your A D H D brain is going to have some trouble with this, and this is likely gonna cause [00:16:00] more difficulty for you in this area than someone else.

Yes. But okay, so then we can work through and move with what we have instead of yelling at ourselves for having them in the first. I love

Sadie: that. I think that's such an important reminder and really, really key, especially when you have these really ambitious goals, but you're again, feeling stuck. , we talked about what to do.

When you get to the point, you're like, okay, I'm stuck. What do we do next? Are there red flags or little mini things that pop up before you fully get to the point of like, oh my God, I don't know what to do.

Britt: Well, the biggest red flag is asking why questions. And I know like most of us were also taught start with why.

Find your why, and that's really, really good advice when you're not stuck. Yeah, when you're up and running and you've got some momentum and you feel like you've got your feet underneath you, why is a great question, but when you are absolutely inert and trying to get to that first right next thing. , why questions are only gonna spin you more.

So I like to think of it like if you and [00:17:00] I were talking together inside a burning building, we're not gonna sit there and debate why the building caught on fire. Mm-hmm. , it's like, I wonder why this happened. It's like, get outta the building. Yeah. And then after we get outta the building, we can figure out the how and the why and the what and the who, but never.

Start. I don't like never and always as a general rule, but with this, I'll say it, never start with a why question If you're stuck. To get from stuck to step one, to get from stuck, to go toss the why. Because why is not helpful right now. Yeah. Instead of why, ask yourself what is someone or something, or some place that makes my brain feel less freaked out, a little less threatened, a little less activated, and then use.

the smallest. Yes, you can get to, but why questions are the biggest red flag thing. And everyone wants to know. Everyone thinks once I know my why, you know, I know why I'm anxious. And I know now after 20 years of therapy, I understand why I have certain patterns, but like knowing why I have them doesn't change them.

Knowing why helps give me insight and it's great, but. [00:18:00] Knowing who, what, where, and when makes me feel safer or a little less bad. That's useful for getting moving.

Sadie: Yeah. Yeah. What's so interesting about this is that it's not just goals that you're setting for yourself, but you talk a lot about how it also is implications for relationships and external things.

So can you explain how you can be stuck in those settings, even when there are things that are outside of your own control and your own thought patterns and your, your own agenda? If you. .

You are feeling really unmotivated or imbalanced. It's not making you feel good. You're like, I the relationship isn't going anywhere. , and you definitely feel like it's a two-sided thing. Obviously we've all been in a situation where like, we haven't , been doing the work, but you really do truly feel like you've been trying.

Parties have been investing and yet you're still feeling stuck in outta a stands. .

Britt: Yeah. This one's tough. So again, the question is not why, why are they not, you know, doing X, Y, and Z? Or why do they keep doing X, Y, and Z? Not helpful. Yeah. , I can give you a case analysis of [00:19:00] why they're doing it. Doesn't help.

Mm-hmm. , the, the question to ask yourself first is what are my choices? Like you said, if you've already done everything you can do sometimes. there, there's work on our end to do. Yeah, like have I spoken my truth? Have I had the hard conversation? Have I asked from what I need? Have I stopped assuming that they could read my mind?

What are my choices here? , controlling them is not a choice. Making them not suck is not a choice. But first question is, what are my choices? And then if you've done all of that, the next question is, what's the reality of this relationship? . And that is a bummer because I cannot tell you how many amazing people that I have had to either distance from, you know, you can, you don't have to cut everyone off, but you can have distance.

You can have lots of distance, or you can have hard no contact. Mm-hmm. . But just because they're amazing people doesn't mean that it's a safe relationship or a healthy, functional relationship for you. And so what is the reality of this situation? Do I need to relocate? in my [00:20:00] relationship, ecosystem, like my inner circle bestie is actually not, but like, they're really cool.

So maybe I can keep them in my life as a go do thing. Like maybe they're really fun to , I don't know, snowboard with, so go do that with them. Yeah. , you don't have to cut them out. But asking yourself, what's the reality of this relationship and where on my map does this relationship actually belong versus where I really, really, really genuinely wish this person was.

Like, I have a lot of people that I wish were inner circle people that, and I have a lot of family members that I wish were inner circle people. And the reality of the situation is I've done what I can and that's all I can do. . And so that's a really unpleasant reality, but an unpleasant reality is still preferable to trying to force things to work that won't.

Sadie: I love that. I love that. That is huge. , I feel like one of the biggest questionnaires listeners probably have right now is if you're feeling stuck, how long does it take to get to the point of being unstuck? Because obviously you do these micro yeses, you make these micro shifts. , what [00:21:00] are the, are the trends you're seeing?

It's like you have this little momentum, it doesn't take that long, or it takes a while to be consistent and get to these more bigger goals in your life, if you will. What have you found there with timelines and obviously it's so variable, it's so dependent on like what the goal is being set or how long you felt stuck for.

, but it can be so discouraging to feel stuck, which you obviously know, so I'm sure people are like, okay, but like, how can I get rid of this feeling? So what can they expect in this process of making these shifts and trying to move away from this point of being stuck?

Britt: I have a horrible puy like want to hit me therapist?

Answer for that . And the answer to how long will it take? Assuming you're safe and you have everything you need, it'll take longer. You know than you'd like. Yeah. But not as long as you're afraid it will take. So somewhere in between that. Mm-hmm. . And, you know, I've read the common knowledge is that it takes three weeks to form a habit.

Well, that was based off of like a plastic surgeon who was measuring how long his patients took to look at themselves in the mirror and adjust to [00:22:00] how they looked. So three weeks to a habit isn't totally. accurate. , if you are doing micro yeses, as soon as you start keeping promises to yourself, you're gonna feel a little bit, not better, but you'll feel a little less bad.

Mm-hmm. , even if the first day micro yeses write one bullet point, you're not gonna feel like, yay, go me. Everything has changed. Yeah. But keeping promises to ourself, if at the very least, if it doesn't make you feel better. Prohibit more shame from being added. Yeah. And so anywhere you're not adding shame, you're gonna feel a little less bad.

And I, everyone wants the answer and I, I could say like, yeah, in three weeks of this, you know, you're gonna feel a lot, it'll take longer than you'd like, but not as long as you're worried it'll take. .

Sadie: Mm-hmm. . I love that you mentioned keeping promises to yourself because this is something I've been hearing everyone talk about recently.

I don't know if this is like the new self-care or what is happening with it , but like recently everyone is harping on this idea of keeping promises to yourself, and I think [00:23:00] it's like you were mentioning, it really does help diminish that shame it. Feel that, that motivation, that momentum, that consistency.

But I've also noticed on the flip side that it gets really scary when you don't want to do something because then there's all this on the line if you're not keeping this promised to yourself. So I'd love to kind of hear your thoughts there. Obviously, keeping. Promises to yourself is amazing. If you're in a position where you've made the decision not to keep a promise to yourself or you're struggling to get to that point, maybe your goal is too big.

So it's hard to do that. Yes. , but what are the implications there when you're not keeping your promises to yourself, is it really the end of the world or it's okay. And you'll , you'll continue on with life.

Britt: And you're so right. You know, like when we break promises to ourself, then we feel shame.

And what we know about shame is shame is gonna create a cycle of, now I feel bad. So now I do the things that make me feel less bad, but they're bad for me. So now I feel bad that I did the thing that I was doing to escape the bad feeling and off. And that's the addiction cycle. Yeah. You know, in a nutshell right there.

And so I have a fun little [00:24:00] acronym When you're making promises to yourself, think of the acronym set, s e t. They need to be small, easy, and truthful. So when I was like smoking meth, I'm not going to make a promise to myself that I'm gonna get up, take a shower, brush my teeth, and go exercise for two hours.

It's like, no. ? No, no, no, no. Small, easy, and truthful, because if it's not small, easy and truthful, you're not gonna do it. Mm-hmm. in, don't worry about breaking big promises to yourself because you're not gonna be making big promises to yourself. Yeah. You're gonna be making small, easy, truthful promises, and if you do that, then you, we've kind of eliminated the problem of what do we do when we break the promises?

Now if they're small, easy, and truthful, and then you break them, that's when you say to yourself, okay, human. Great. Fell on the dirt, now get up, dust off and try again.

Sadie: How do you mentally differentiate from a goal or an aspiration? You're like, I should do that, or It would be nice if I could do that like five step morning routine that you just outlined, but you're not actually making that promise.

You're not actually like, tomorrow I'm gonna do that, but you're like, [00:25:00] I wish I was at that point. Like how are you mentally making that differentiation? So every time you have a thought, you're not breaking a promise. But you're still also exploring these possibilities almost. .

Britt: Yeah. And that's going back to goals versus systems.

Mm-hmm. , like if my goal is to kill it on high and I keep bringing up hygiene cuz a lot of people don't realize that even high functioning people that are killing it at work or whatever school, really struggle with basics. Like yeah. Showering, teeth brushing, all of that. So if my goal, and I had this goal was to have hygiene, like brush your teeth, floss, take a shower, or do the things.

That's the goal. So once we set that goal, we forget about it. And then what's my system? And that's where you get to the micro. Yes. Mm-hmm. . And you know, I don't like to say, trust me cuz you shouldn't trust me. You should never just trust what someone says. But what we know about brain science is all of those small systems that you set up.

Do lead to the goal so you don't have to put your faith in something unseen. You know, if you have the goal of, hygiene, doing this system [00:26:00] of micro yeses is going to get you there. So you don't have to wish for it and think about it and dwell on it. Cuz frankly, when you think about or fantasize about achieving your goals, or talk about the goals you wanna achieve, you release a little bit of dopamine.

I've heard it called mental masturbation . Cause it makes you feel really good to imagine yourself doing the thing. , but like you didn't actually do the thing. Yeah. So it's really important to focus on, set the goal, forget it then micro yeses.

Sadie: I've loved that. One thing that I think you explained so well is that this is not a laziness or you're not, , unmotivated.

You're not not hide. Achieving, like all these things that people throw out when they are trying to explain why people aren't keeping promises to themselves or making progress or making shifts, and I'd really love to kind of hear thoughts on why that's the immediate. Conclusion, people reach when you haven't done something, people are like, oh, you're just lazy.

You're not motivated. Why aren't you doing this? Like, why do you think that that's the first conclusion we reach? And then [00:27:00] how do you recommend to clients and, and your community to kind of combat that? Because it is really, it's like almost as hard as hearing over and over again that you're not keeping promises to yourself to hear like, oh no, you're lazy, you're unmotivated.

That's the reason why this isn't happening. And then it feels like something that can't be changed. So what are your thoughts there?

Britt: Nice tea up. I so hate the word lazy like lazy is not a biological reality. Yeah. Lazy is a judgment that we have put on behavior We don't understand. It's like, oh, I don't get why that person's laying there, so they must be lazy.

I don't get why that's happening, so they must be crazy. It's like lazy and crazy are totally moral judgments that have no basis in the physiological reality of our. Okay. Mm-hmm. . Then people get mad. Are you saying it's okay to just like lay around and do nothing? I'm like, no. I'm saying that laziness is not the explanation for what you're seeing.

Craziness is not the explanation for what you're seeing. So what we call lazy is a nervous system that is shut down in a freeze response. So you have a nerve in your [00:28:00] brain that when it gets dinged, It shuts down. It shuts you down. It's like your alarm goes danger, danger, and then collapse. Yeah. And again, it's not like, great, my, my alarm system went off.

Now I'm in free is cool. Now I'm just going to stay here. But if I'm just telling myself I'm lazy, I'm lazy, I suck that, that doesn't actually solve, that's like breaking your leg and being like, oh, it sucks that my legs broken. It's. . It's like, yeah, it does. Yeah. Well, I guess it's just my fault that my legs broken.

Well, okay, but like you're still sitting on the floor. It's not your fault. And it does suck, but we need to get you to a doctor who can then set the leg. Mm-hmm. . And so laziness requires interventions that focus on our brain's physiology, not these moral judgments. And that's why you can't think your way out of feeling stuck sometimes.

you could do all the affirmations and journaling and mind work and rah rah, go me You could put all the sticky notes in your car, . But like if your nervous system is stuck and freeze, you need to approach that understanding. This is a physiological issue. Your nervous [00:29:00] system is perceiving danger. . Why?

I don't know why. It doesn't matter. Why Because brain science. Yeah. So then what are three people, places, or things that can help me feel a little safer? And none of us, well, I wa I don't know if you were taught, I certainly was not taught. Hey, how does your nervous system feel with this person? Do they feel safe or do they feel activated?

How does your nervous system feel watching this particular show? Like there's certain things that I watch that I can tell shut me down and put me in freeze, and then I get stuck and I keep scrolling or whatever. And if you can learn. Start to decode your body's language, it'll tell you what, who and where feels a little bit safer or a little bit less threatened.

And that's where our, our window is where we can actually get up and start moving. Yeah. Lazy is not a thing. .

Sadie: I, I love that. And I think that's a really important reminder for people to hear and really helpful and encouraging if that's what people are hearing. Are they internally or, or externally? , I love that you mentioned hygiene earlier, and I am wondering if there is a [00:30:00] place to start or a foundational habit that you found with either your own personal experience or with clients where you're like, this is a really great way to start building these yeses.

To have an effective foundation. It helps with momentum. , because if you're starting like, oh, I'm gonna run a marathon, and , that is the first goal you're pursuing, but you're not showering or brushing your teeth or having a co. Diet throughout your day or sleeping well, like that's not gonna work.

So where do you recommend that people start when they have all these goals that feel really ambitious? Mm-hmm. , and they're like, do I pick the one that I'm most excited about? Do I pick the one that's biggest? What is your recommendation for choosing where to

Britt: start? I always say start with what's easy and nobody wants to do that.

Cuz somehow, yeah, we've learned if it's easy, it's not valuable or somehow it has less worth. But like start with what's easy and trigger warning here. And I'm gonna talk about sexual assault for sexual assault survivors, which I am things. And again, we're not taught this things like oral hygiene and [00:31:00] showering can be really triggering.

It's not taught that like going to the dentist if. , our survival of sexual assaults can totally trigger panic reactions, so can showering, so can brushing your teeth. And now, I didn't know that at the time, but like I just knew somehow getting into the shower created this fear response you know, I didn't know why at the time, and I would beat myself out. What's wrong with me? Why? Like, this is so stupid. This is dumb. This is so easy. Like everybody showers, why can't I just do this? But other things were a little bit easier for me.

Like, okay, I can brush my hair. Doing my hair didn't trigger me in the same way as getting into a shower did. And so start with what's. Whatever's the easiest. Yes, you can get to start there. It counts. Easy yeses, counts. I

Sadie: love that. If there is one sentence or mantra or takeaway that listeners can leave this conversation with and put a sticky note, make it their phones green, remind themselves over and over again.

If they're struggling with feeling stuck, what would that be? I know it's hard because there are so many moments from this where I'm like, it's going on [00:32:00] Instagram. We're we're putting it in the episode promo cuz there's just so many things you've said that have been amazing. Oh,

Britt: thank you.

Let's see. Stuck is only a starting place. Okay. So we all assume stuck is now this is where I am, this is where I'll stay. And it's like, yeah, you're stuck. Stuck is your starting place. It's not your final destination , adding on is we know the brain can grow and change and heal, and who you are, where you are, how you do life now does not have to be, this is who I like, this is who I am.

It's not even accurate. Neurophysiologically yeah, so we know your brain can change. So if you don't like how your brain is wired, it can change. If you don't like your pattern, Of thinking or doing or being or whatever, those can change. So assuming you have resources and safety stuck is only a starting place, not a final destination.

Sadie: I love that so much, and it reminds me of something I heard when I was in intensive treatment, and I to this day still absolutely love it and go back to it, which is that life is impermanent and that impermanence will be on your side because everything is constantly shifting and [00:33:00] changing, including your degree of stuckness, if you will, and your behaviors and thoughts.

So, , even if it feels like you've been at this point forever, at some point, something has to shift with the level of emotion. No intensity. You're feeling the way that your behaviors are going, your habits. All of these things have to shift because nothing like by the laws of nature how life works it, it just won't continue to stay consistent forever.

Britt: Oh, I love that so much. That's beautiful. Yeah. Yes, yes. So much yes to that .

Sadie: Where can people get your book and follow along with you and continue to consume your content?

Britt: Yeah, so the book's called The Science of Stuck, and you can buy it wherever you buy books and you can find me on Instagram. It's just my name at Brit Frank and Brit has two t's and my website is Science of stuck.com.

Sadie: Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Brit, for joining me today and she persisted. I learned just for so much from this. I know listeners are gonna learn so much from this

Britt: Thank you so much.

Sadie: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of she persisted. If you enjoyed, make sure to share with a [00:34:00] friend or family member, it really helps out the podcast. And if you haven't already leave a review on apple podcasts or Spotify, you can also make sure to follow along at actually persisted podcast on both Instagram and Tik TOK, and check out all the bonus resources, content and information on my website.

She persisted podcast.com. Thanks for supporting. Keep persisting and I'll see you next week.

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