91. Why You're Experiencing Anxiety + A Therapist's Advice on How to Cope feat. Tara Bixby

Mar 16

listen to this episode:

Today's guest is Tara Bixby—a therapist, anxiety coach, and host of the Courageously.u Podcast. In this episode, we dive deep into anxiety. Tara and I talk about causes, triggers, advice for parents vs. teens, somatic experiences, societal misconceptions surrounding anxiety, and more! If you've ever struggled with anxiety or want to support a loved one struggling this episode is for YOU—it is filled with tangible advice to implement, insight on what's going on internally, coping skill suggestions, and the therapist's perspective we all need!

Tara's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/courageously.u/?hl=en

Tarah's Website + Podcast: https://courageouslyu.com/

Mentioned In The Episode…

+ Widen the Window by Elizabeth Stanley PhD

+ Peter Levine

+ The Body Keeps the Score

+ Mind of Your Own by Dr. Kelly Brogan

+ The Anatomy of Anxiety by Ellen Vora

+ The Way of Integrity by Martha Beck

+ Mad in America

SHOP GUEST RECOMMENDATIONS: https://amzn.to/3A69GOC

Episode Sponsors

🛋This week's episode is sponsored by Teen Counseling. Teen Counseling is an online therapy program with over 14,000 licensed therapists in their network offering support with depression, anxiety, relationships, trauma, and more via text, talk, and video counseling. Head to teencounseling.com/shepersisted to find a therapist today!

🍓This week's episode is brought to you by Sakara. Sakara is a nutrition company that focuses on overall wellness, starting with what you eat. Use code XOSADIE at checkout for 20% off your first order!

About She Persisted (formerly Nevertheless, She Persisted)

After a year and a half of intensive treatment for severe depression and anxiety, 18-year-old Sadie recounts her journey by interviewing family members, professionals, and fellow teens to offer self-improvement tips, DBT education, and personal experiences. She Persisted is the reminder that someone else has been there too and your inspiration to live your life worth living.

a note: this is an automated transcription so please ignore any accidental misspellings!

Sadie: Welcome to she persisted. I'm your host Sadie Sutton. Every Friday, I post interviews about mental health, dialectical behavioral therapy and teenage life. These episodes break down my mental health journey, teach skills to help you cope with life and showcase testimonials from individuals, including teens, just like you, whether you've struggled yourself or just want to improve your mental fitness.

This podcast is your inspiration to live a life you love and keep persisting.

This week's DP T scale is mindfulness of current thoughts for me when I'm experiencing anxiety. A lot of it is in my head and not my thoughts are racing. I'm feeling really overwhelmed. I'm struggling to logically think through how I want to navigate the situation and check the facts, all of those things.

So this skill is exactly what you use when you're having that, like thoughts, spiral, overwhelmed, experience. So the first step is to observe your thoughts. So you're really thinking of them as waves they're coming. They're going, they're not constant. You're not suppressing or judging your thoughts, but you are acknowledging their presence.

But you're also not keeping them around. You're not ruminating on them. You are also not analyzing this. You are practicing willingness and you're stepping back and observing your thoughts as they go in and out of your mind. The next step is to adopt a curious mind. So you're asking where do my thoughts come from?

What's the trigger. Really? Just get curious. Notice every thought that goes in and goes out. I know that's kind of hard because at least for me, my mind goes like 37 million miles an hour. And I'm like, I don't even know what I just thought, but when you can get curious, try and trace it back to the initial trigger and observe, but don't evaluate your thoughts.

You're not attaching judgements. You're really just exploring them as they are. The third step is to remember that you're not your thoughts. You don't necessarily need to act on them. There's times when you have had really different thoughts that than you are right now, which can be really reassuring thing to remind yourself of.

You can also note that what you're feeling right now, the catastrophe thinking is emotion. Mind. It's not your, your logical wise self. And lastly, we are not blocking or suppressing thoughts. I know for me, whenever I try to avoid something, it comes back bigger, not better, more overwhelming.

So ask yourself, what sensations are these thoughts trying to avoid? Try to turn your mind to that, and then go back to the thought and kind of go back and forth in that step back and allow your thoughts to come and go. As you observe your breath, grounding herself. And try practicing some loving compassion towards your thoughts.

So that is the mindfulness of current thoughts skill. It's great when you're feeling mentally overwhelmed and you're having the urge to suppress thoughts, but you really want to cope through it. Hello. Hello and welcome back to . I'm so excited. You're here today. We have an amazing episode. I'm really proud of this one. It's one of those episodes where, when I think about what I wish I would have heard or been aware of when I was struggling with depression and anxiety, this is one of those conversations and it's just, it's so powerful.

Our guest is Tara. Big speeds. She is a therapist, anxiety coach, and the host of the courageously you podcast. And we really just dive deep on anxiety. So we talk everything from causes to triggers, to her advice, to somatic experiencing as a, as a treatment for anxiety. We talk about the misconceptions that are at play truly healing and what she seen in practice with teens and adolescents versus working in the.

Diamond seeing adults struggling with mental health challenges. So it's just such an holistic, well-rounded insightful approach to talking about anxiety. And I know you're going to find this conversation valuable. So before we, so before we dive in, if you haven't already be sure to leave a review for she persisted on apple podcasts or Spotify, wherever you're listening, at the time of this recording, we're at 93 reviews on apple podcasts, which is insane. I remember the days when I was leaving me reviews for myself, from my phone, my computer, my friend's phones, my parents' phones to get to like five reviews. But in sanity there might be a really fun giveaway at 100 reviews.

I don't know, that's just the rumor going around, but if you haven't left a review, it would mean so much to me. I love hearing your guys's feedback and opinions on the episodes and when they helped, when they, didn't, why you're liking what, you're not all of the information that this podcast can really just be a resource for you.

So with that being said, we are going to dive into this amazing conversation.

Thank you so much, for joining me on cheaper assisted today. I am so excited to have you on this.

Tara: Yeah. I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me

Sadie: course. Of course. So I wanted to start by hearing your journey, your story, and what brought you to being an anxiety coach, working with clients to, to navigate anxiety and kind of the foundation there.

Tara: Yeah. I don't have like this awesome story of how, like I woke up one day and I knew what I wanted to be when I grow up who dine was very few, right. Mine was more like. I just kind of took opportunities and then a new one would pop up and I'm like, Hey, why not? And so I did that multiple times and then I got to where I am today.

So I actually started out as a cosmetologist. After I graduated high school, I was doing hair and I just like, there's something about when you go get your hair done, and then it's like a safe space to just talk to somebody and people were starting to unload. Like their stressors. And one lady told me that she had been raped and I'm like, oh my goodness.

Right? I'm like, Ooh, this is really heavy. And so I decided, you know, I think I'm going to go back to school and I navigated some majors for a little while and I finally settled on psychology and then we were getting ready to graduate. And I was like, what am I going to do now? I got no plan. And one of my friends was like, well, I'm going to go get my master's in counseling.

And I was like, eh, I think I can do that. You know, like, no, like I don't even know what I was thinking. And so I applied and I got into the master's program and I became a clinical counselor. And then I. Well through that process, somebody had reached out to me and was like, you know, the prison is hiring for a psych tech in their acute mental health unit.

You should apply for it. And I did because I just seem to do like whatever pops up. And I did that. And then when I graduated, I stayed on as a clinician and then I just navigated through the prison system. And then an opportunity popped up for me to go work at a state hospital with adolescents. And I was just like, Sounds cool.

I'll go do it. So, I mean, I just kind of do things, but I guess going back to the anxiety coaching. When I was in grad school, I really, really struggled and I felt really, really alone. And I would go to social media to kind of put it out there for people. And I felt like it landed flat. Like nobody was comfortable with struggle.

And so I would delete it and I would feel shameful for it. And I finally decided like enough is enough. I need to create a space for women where they can, you know, feel seen where they're not struggling alone in silence. And then as I created courageously you on the side, I did that for a while. In my professional career, I started to specialize in anxiety.

And so I kind of merged the two, but because I'm a licensed therapist, I can't practice outside of Idaho. And so that's when I went in to coaching long story short.

Sadie: Gotcha. I would love to hear, obviously you've worked with I'm sure. Some very interesting patients, super interesting cases. Are there common threads that you see with patients in the ACU prison system?

Child mental hospitals. And then everyday patients that you see that are struggling with anxiety, like, are there common themes there?

Tara: You know, it's really interesting because. There's there's two populations. The way I view it is there's people who maybe aren't struggling with acute mental health. It's more people who are just struggling with everyday worries and it starting to impact their mental health and they're starting to feel anxious.

But then I see a very large population and I I'm seeing it now with kiddos and the inpatient psych hospital. And I've seen it in the prison system with. You have trauma and I'm not talking just like capital T trauma. I'm talking about, you know, abandonment and neglect, not having a safe space, a safe home, a caregiver that you could depend on different types of abuse.

And I'm seeing how there is a connection because a lot of kids get lost in the system or they don't get help at all. And then when they get older, they get lost in the system. So I do see. A big connection. And sometimes I think, you know, like maybe medication is playing a role in this. Like what, where are we going wrong kind of a thing.

So I don't know if that answers your question, but I do see a connection with the kiddos I work with and the people I see in the present system.

Sadie: Yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting. What are the most common things that kids are coming into the hospital struggling with? I know when I was hospitalized, I was hospitalized four times during my eighth grade and freshman year of high school.

And it was for depression. It was for self harm. It was for suicidal ideation. But really like the base, there was depression. Is that the most common thing or are there other things kids are struggling with a lot these

Tara: days. Yeah, pretty much. I would say the most presenting problem that I am seeing is depression and suicidal ideations and self-harming behaviors.

Sadie: What is your advice? It'll be like a two-part question for, for teens and then for parents that are struggling with depression and suicidality on such a big scale.

Tara: So. It's tough with teens. I'm learning. I have only worked with adolescents for six months prior to that, I worked with adults and I'm learning that teenagers are a different population to work with.

And so. I feel with kiddos. I just don't think that they can see the future. They're very, in this moment, very concrete thinking. And so for kids, I, it's more, I just want to establish hope for them and they're navigating bullying and social media. And then I know for the kids, I work with a lot of them. I shouldn't say that there is a large majority of them that don't have that stable home.

Some have very supportive parents, but. It's it's you can't take a kid out of the environment, try to fix the kid and put them back in that environment. And so kiddos just need to learn. How to self-regulate how to use distress tolerance skills. I'm a huge fan of somatic experiencing. How can we discharge that stored stress in your body?

How can you develop healthy coping skills? Trying to find a reason to live. And then with adults, my biggest advice to adults is recognizing all the factors that can impact mental health. I think we live in a system that believes it's just a chemical imbalance and that if, if parents can start being mindful of.

Is my kid getting sleep at night or are they staying up on their phone all night? Is my kid engaging in enough movement? You know, what are they eating? Are they eating captain crunch for breakfast? Are we feeding them? You know, foods that support their gut health because a lot of people think depression is chemicals in the brain, but the reality is is 95% of your serotonin is made in your gut.

So if your gut health is off you're, you might struggle with depression. So. Just being mindful that, you know, medications can help, but there's so many more factors that play that you could, you could encourage your kiddo to engage in.

Sadie: This week. Sponsor is teen counseling. You guys know that we could not have a therapist on the podcast without mentioning teen counseling.

Teen counseling is an online therapy program with over 14,000 licensed therapists, their network, if you've ever heard of better help, teen counseling is their teen brand. So if you are looking to try therapy for the first time or switched things up with your therapist, this is a great way to start. They offer support on things like depression, anxiety.

Relationships trauma and so much more they offer services via talk, text and video counseling. So you can really cater it to me, your needs, whether you just want someone to give advice and, and support and coping recommendations and a tough moment, or you want to have an audio call or you feel comfortable doing a video call and normal session, whatever you need, they can support.

So, what you're going to do is you're going to go to teen counseling.com/she persisted. You are going to take a quick survey about what you're hoping to work on in therapy. And this is that they can match you with a therapist that best meets your needs. From there you go ahead and put an, a parent or Guardian's email, and this is so that they can give consent to treatment.

They, none of them. Just close. Your privacy is protected as it should be in any therapy relationship. And so your parent gets a super discreet email. I send it to myself, don't worry. And it says Sadie or whatever your name is, is hoping to work with a therapist at teen counseling, click here to learn more, give consent for treatment and provide.

So, what you're going to do is you're going to go to teen counseling.com/uberassist head and find a therapist that meets your needs today. Again, that is teen counseling.com. Flashy persisted So shifting gears a bit to anxiety, what are the most common causes or is there a cause, or is it just something that some people struggle with and some people don't.

Tara: I think we are over-complicating anxiety. Honestly, I think it has an anxiety about I'm like this has become like the new catchphrases anxiety. The way I view anxiety. And if you talk to helping professionals, we're all gonna have different views on anxiety, but this is something that I've recognized from my own life and what I've seen with my clients and patients as that, I believe there's three pathways that can ignite anxiety.

The first pathway is triggers in your environment. So something like a sight sound, smell, feeling, taste, whatever can trigger an emotional memory that's been stored in your amygdala. So that's one. Another way that I think anxiety can be ignited as by our thoughts, you know, what are we telling ourselves?

What are we worrying about? What are we thinking? Because your thoughts can activate the right. They can essentially scare your amygdala into activating your anxiety. And then the third way is gut health is internal stressors because. If something's going on inside your body, you know, you, you're a Migdal and Vegas nerve they're con they're communicating with each other.

And if your medulla perceives a threat inside your body, it's going to activate your stress response. So those are the three ways that I feel anxiety can be active in. Are there

Sadie: certain things that it feels like everyone has anxiety about? Or is it very subjective?

Tara: I think right now, I think people think what is igniting their anxiety is their worries.

We live in a very stressful world right now. And I think people perceive that their anxiety as a result of their, their thoughts. But I, I always encourage people to get curious, like, When you feel anxious, just sit with it, you know, what, what is it guiding it? Is it your thoughts? Is it something in your environment, you know, is your blood sugar low?

And I think if people really sat with her anxiety, they'd be surprised that it's not their thoughts that ignited it it's that they had a physical sensation and then they put a thought to that sensation.

Sadie: So if someone comes to you and is like, I feel anxious all the time, I don't know what to do. What are your first steps that you, you guide them through?

Are there certain coping skills that are your favorite to suggest? Is there a thought pattern to rewire? What's your advice?

Tara: I personally like to sit with people and get curious. So I do anxiety coaching and I have them do a big assessment when they first come in and I try to identify what is. Their anxiety, you know, and then I can, I can be more specific with that, but I think if somebody is listening to this and they're struggling with anxiety, I have a couple of things.

I would, I would definitely encourage movement. If you can get your heart rate up for 30 minutes a few times a week, when you get your heart rate up and you're moving, your amygdala thinks that you're escaping danger. And so it thinks, okay, you know, they've exceeded. Danger. I no longer need to be activated and it'll close that anxiety loop for you.

So that's one, one thing I encourage, but I want people to really understand also with movement. Is it when your anxiety activates, it activates your nervous system, your sympathetic nervous system and energy is mobilized within me. And if you don't burn off all that energy that was mobilized, it becomes stored in your body.

So that's also like a really good reason to move your body when feeling anxious. The other thing I would encourage people to do is prioritize, sleep. Like, are you getting, getting good sleep quality? And I'm not saying, oh, I sleep eight hours. Are you sleeping good? Because when you don't sleep good, it pisses off your amygdala and therefore you feel anxious the next.

Yeah. The other thing I would encourage probably is just grounding, like really grounded in your body, send your amygdala signal of safety. Let it know that you're safe, because if you're able to calm your nervous system, whether you go for a walk in nature or, you know, you sit on the couch and you sip your coffee in the morning, whatever you can do to just really ground yourself in your environment, in your body.

Going to send that signal of safety and your Migdal is going to think you're okay. And therefore it's going to basically stop activating.

Sadie: What are some of the most common misconceptions that either like the general public or clients that you work with have about experiencing anxiety.

Tara: I think people, when they feel anxious, they think it's a message.

That's saying like shit's getting real, you know, like things are going to get real bad. Something's going to fall apart in my world, somebody's going to die. I'm gonna die. They think it means something bad. And it's funny you ask this. Cause even just today, I was thinking about it. Like I wish people would think of anxiety as stress activates.

You know, when you feel anxious, just like, oh my nervous. System's activated again, you know, reshift that focus to just being your nervous system, because a lot of people fear anxiety because they don't know what anxiety is. So I would just encourage people. To know about anxiety, know about your nervous system.

And to know that those physical sensations, while they're terrible and horrible, and nobody likes them that it's just your nervous system activating, but you have the power to like retrain your nervous system to not be so responsive.

Sadie: What are your favorite coping skills to recommend for anxiety or panic attacks

Tara: with panic attacks?

You know, a lot of people try to fight the panic attack. If you're having a panic attack, just ride through the wave of it. You know, imagine you're a buoy in the water and you're just kind of bobbing with the sensations that are coming over you because fighting is only going to pour fuel on that fire.

And a lot of people are like, I can't sit still when I'm having a panic attack on panicking. But if you can just, like, I always say before you have the panic attack, rewire that circuitry in your brain that says, you know, a panic attack is not going to kill me. I am going to be fine so that when it does happen, You're more able to ride that wave.

So that's what I would say about panic attacks. And the other thing is with a panic attack, don't lay down. If you are having a panic, if you're having a panic attack, just try to walk around because like I said, your amygdala thinks you're cause fight flight freeze. It thinks that you're running away from whatever is dangerous, even if there's no danger present.

So I wouldn't sit still if having a panic attack. When it comes to anxiety. I honestly think my favorite tool, cause I used to struggle really bad with anxiety and panic attacks. And what I found the most helpful for me was just grounding, you know, just really getting into my body and just being like, okay, what is going on?

Why am I feeling anxious? What just happened in my environment have bite eaten. Just really getting curious, because once you are aware, You're going to recognize a pattern of like, okay, this is, what's always igniting my anxiety. And then you are better able to maybe minimize the likelihood of that activation in the future.

Sadie: what would your advice be to someone who is currently struggling with anxiety?

Tara: If somebody is struggling with anxiety, I would encourage them to do a few things. It's it's not a one size fits all. So that's why it's always tricky. And I always encourage many different changes, but if you're a caffeine drinker, that's my first one, you know, like, do you drink a lot of caffeine?

If you are drinking a lot of caffeine, try to start cutting back and see if that makes an it, if that helps makes an improvement, prioritize your sleep. I don't know, like. It's so tricky because this is where I think we're going wrong with anxiety is that, you know, you have people that teach CBT and you have Pujol people that teach DVT, and then you have people that are very trauma focused and you know, those modalities might not be helping that person.

So I would start by just checking out your lifestyle, you know, what's your diet and lifestyle look like. Let's start the. Let's get in nature, you know, let's expose ourselves to sunshine. Let's go for walks. That's ground, let's do movement practices and then really going inward. And once you know, what is anxiety or what is activating your anxiety, if it's your thoughts?

K cool. Go focus on CVT a little bit. If it is trauma, because a lot of people have not made the connection that trauma. Is, you know, it's causing dysregulation in your body and it's igniting anxiety because of triggers in your environment. So then once you get to that, you know, let's, let's do a somatic experiencing, let's get in your body, discharge the storage stress.

So I know that's probably not answering the question because it's just so. Complex. And I want people to know that because they get so discouraged when they go somewhere and they're like, why is this not helping me? And it's probably because you're treating a pathway of anxiety. That's not the pathway that's igniting your anxiety.

Sadie: That's so interesting. And I think it's, it's completely true. We were in my site costs a couple of weeks ago. And she was talking about how the data shows that the most like long-term success and recovery comes from patients that have worked with like six different therapists and anyone that hears it at the beginning is like, is this a joke?

I'm like six different therapists, but it's kind of connects to that idea of like, what works for you, what the modality that works for someone else by not be what helps treat, treat your emotions and thoughts and feelings. And so I completely agree. I would love to dive into somatic experience Ang and for listeners who haven't heard that term before, or haven't done that, what is it as it's something that you can implement independently?

Do you work with a therapist on it? Kind of walk me through

Tara: that. Yeah. So somatic experiencing is a really a focus and I'm just starting the three-year program. So I'm just starting the three-year program, but. Oh, my gosh, her name is totally escaping my memory right now, but the book widen the window. If anybody wants to learn about just like the role, the body plays in it and energy read wide in the window.

And then Peter Levine has a ton of really good work on somatic experiencing as well. And he's actually the program that I am starting, but pretty much what the goal is. This is coming to try to minimize this large theory until it really smoked lip. But. Your amygdala, which is your fight flight, freeze, your spirit, your fear response.

When it perceives that you are in danger, it activates your nervous system. It activates your sympathetic nervous system. You have all the hormones that come in to prepare you to either fight the danger, flee the danger or freeze. And so what happens is if people aren't completely. That whole entire, you know, discharge loop.

If they're not discharging all the energy that was mobilized, it's becoming stored in their body. And so just like, I always imagine a cup, let's say every time your stress activation activates, it fills up your cup a little bit more. And if you're not discharging it, eventually that cup is going to fill up.

And again, you're going to be right there at the rim where if one more stress, stress activation happens, you're gonna overflow. And so that's what's happening. And when you have that over. That's when you start to have symptoms, that's when the presentation of mental health symptoms come into play and people don't recognize that the dysregulation between the mind body system is because they're not discharging all that energy after stress activation.

I mean, think about how often your stress activates. Like the other day I thought I was going to write the other day. I thought I was going to spill my water and I like jumped to catch my water. That was stress activation. So. I don't. I feel like it's, it's so complex to explain, but I just want people to recognize.

All that energy that's mobilized. It's being mobilized. Like back in the day, it used to be for like caveman and you like when a saber tooth tiger was going to come and get you. But now it's being activated every day because our amygdala is our nervous system has not caught up with the modern world. And so it's.

Easily activated found that by. I felt like I went on a Lego kind of a tangent, but I hope

Sadie: it wasn't. I love that. That's, it's so interesting. And I think you explained it so well, and it's definitely something that I've heard. A couple of guests mentioned here and there. And so it's really helpful to have that explanation.

And I think it's something that so many people can relate to. Because again, we are stressed constantly. I mean, you look at the news this week and like every single time you open your phone, You're like, oh my God, like that stress is activated. So it's, it's very important to remember, to take that time, to, to recharge, to be able to like decrease your baseline so that you can withstand whatever challenges you continue to face.

today's sponsor is Sacara. Sakara is a nutrition company focusing on overall wellness, starting with what you eat.

They have amazing plant-based gluten-free vegan. I guess that's the same thing as plant phased meal plans that are delivered, ready to eat to your door. And a lot of people don't know this, but you can either just do breakfast. You could just do lunch. You could just do generous or you could do all of them.

So if you are someone that really struggles to get a healthy lunch, Order of Sakara just for lunch and you'll have an amazing salad or bowl ready to go every day. The same thing for breakfast and dinner,

Sakara is a celebrity favorite Chrissy Tiegen and Gweneth Paltrow. Both are huge fans. I'm sure you've seen it on Instagram, YouTube, all of the things, but they have such amazing wellness essentials as well. At my two favorites are the sleep tea and the beauty chocolates, the sleep tea has chem, a meal and other herbs on that help you just wind down.

It's a great thing to add into your night routine and the beauty chocolates have collagen and nootropics in them to help you get glowing. All of the amazing things skin and it literally tastes like chocolate. So who doesn't want to add that to their routine? So if you want to check out Sakara, you can go to sakara.com or use the link in today's show notes and use code X O Sadie at checkout for 20% off your first order again, that is code X O Sadie at checkout for 20% off your first order. One of the most common questions that I get asked is what the difference is between having anxiety. Like a diagnosis versus feeling anxiety. And whenever I'm asked this, I'm linked, they're the same thing. Like obviously the DSM will give you certain criteria. Qualify you for a diagnosis and your insurance will cover treatment and blah, blah, blah.

But the coping skills that work for someone that's feeling anxiety versus having the diagnosis are the same. That's how I kind of like to explain it, but I would love to hear your perspective

Tara: on that. So I'm probably the worst person to ask because I hate the DSM and I hate diagnosing people. There's honestly, Well there, I mean, this is tricky.

So at the end of the day, there's really no difference. Anxiety is anxiety, no matter what the DSM tells you. Yeah. When it, when it comes to a diagnosis of generalized anxiety disorder, they are looking at a set criteria and they're seeing, okay, does this person meet this criteria? And usually one of the things I think differentiates it is.

You know, you can have stress activation and feeling anxiety for a minute, but you're able to cope and ride through it and then you're fine. But then there's some people when, you know, it's like their amygdala has it's, it doesn't have a foot, but you know, like its foot is on the gas pedal. And so your stress is just going all day long and it's starting to impair your ability to function.

It's starting to be a problem for you. You know, you're not sleeping, you're not eating whatever you're becoming irritable, agitated. That's when they're going to move you into a diagnosis is, you know, okay, this has been going on for this amount of time. It's starting to impair your ability to function, but at the end of the day, all it is is a quote unquote label for insurance companies so that they can bill you a diagnosis.

It means nothing at the end of the day, like anxiety is on a spectrum. And if you get diagnosed, that just means you're at the other end of the spectrum, but it doesn't mean you can't get back to the other end.

Sadie: No, I completely agree with you. It's so interesting because I feel like the context that it most often gets brought up in and the most, I hear it most frequently when people are like asking me about my experiences and they're like, okay, well, like I felt anxiety, but obviously don't have anxiety like you did.

And it's almost like a thought barrier to like, feeling like you can ask for help. And you can get curious about how you could feel better because you're like, well, it's not bad enough. And it's so interesting because. Even if you're not in therapy, like you can still look for coping skills and research and educate yourself and whether or not you have the DSM criteria is going to make no difference in that.

And yes, it's kind of like one of those things that we, we kind of hold ourselves to for no reason. And so I completely agree with you that it's a very stupid way of qualifying the symptoms you're experiencing. And there are so many reasons that the DSM is helpful because insurance will pay for things. And there there's more research that can be done on these different disorders. But in other ways it's really hurting people, which is really unfortunate.

Tara: Yeah. I, I struggle with diagnosing and I've seen it. And the reason I struggle with it so much is because like I worked in the prison system and I'm working with kids right now. And these, when both populations come into me and I sit down to do their psychosocial, which is a psychosocial assessment.

Your mind would be blown if you saw the laundry list of diagnoses, these people will have, and what's even sadder is when kids have this many diagnoses. And so I started to see this theme and the more I did research on it, I'm sure. What, why are we diagnosing people? Because like they may present one way today and then they won't present that way in the future.

But that diagnosis has stuck with them. Like it's, it's sticking to their paper trail as they move along. And so with the anxiety, I think. I hope for a world where you can seek mental health treatment and not need diagnosed, but still get the help that you need. And you made the comment about, well I'm maybe my anxiety is not as bad as your anxiety.

I want everybody that's listening to this. I don't care if you're anxious or not. I want everybody to use the tools because the more you strengthen that within yourself, if you do feel anxious in the future, it's more likely to be easier to reduce your anxiety because you've already strengthened that skill.

Your body's like, oh, I know what I'm doing. It's a muscle. And it jumps in.

Sadie: Totally, totally. It makes me think of the, the. I don't even know if you could really call it a study. We read about it in my psychology class was decades ago where this I'm pretty sure he was a doctor, but I don't want to, I don't want to say for sure, but he had these actors go into a psych hospital and this was like in the fifties or sixties, like this is when it wasn't asylum.

And. Presented I'm using quotes with schizophrenia symptoms and then they were diagnosed. They did treatment for a bit, and then they recovered themselves because they were using the different criteria that qualified them for a diagnosis and they were all discharged. And this was at a point where people.

When you were admitted to a hospital, it was like a lifetime thing. It wasn't like you were there for a week. And then you went home. This, if you went into an asylum, you were there forever. And they were discharged with recovered schizophrenia, which really isn't a thing you can, of course managed symptoms you can in the, in the long run really be able to live very effectively and cope.

Wow. Not many doctors now would use the term recovered schizophrenia. And so it really illustrated. What the, what, how concerning it can be to over pathologize people. And so I'd love to hear your perspective on that because you've worked with such different demographics and populations and especially kids where there's labels are getting tagged on so early in life before they even fully developed.

So what do you think happens when we're pathologizing every single behavior and action and thought and emotion?

Tara: Well, I'm going to start with kiddos because I mean they're younger in age, so you can, you have a better chance of helping them what I am finding. And I, I need to do a disclaimer. When I started doing mental health work, I absolutely believed in the mental health model and the, in the chemical imbalance theory and that medications were the answer and I pushed meds.

Tell people like, you know, if you want to cook a life worth, living a quality of life, like you gotta be med compliant. And I started to do research and I'm not going to dive into it. But like I learned about Kelly Brogan and Robert Whitaker and mad at America and Ellen fora. And I started to learn.

You know, people can heal, like people can actually heal their symptoms and that, you know, medications could be causing more harm than good. And so with this new awareness that I have, and I work with kids, I have to be honest with you. I get really mad a lot, and I stress out a lot because these kiddos are being given a diagnosis.

Hmm. And because they're so young, they don't recognize like they can't separate themselves from this diagnosis. So they're like, yeah, I am bipolar. I am schizophrenia. I am depressed. And so it's like, no, at the end of the day, these kids are presenting with symptoms that match a DSM criteria that has no validity.

So I get frustrated because. These kids already have so many diagnoses and they're being pushed medications. And you know, when they're starting to have like escalated behavior, or maybe they're starting to present, like they might have a panic attack. People are running to them saying here, take this PRN.

And my whole caseload knows like, Nope, Tara is going to get mad. If I take a PRN, I got to use my skills first. And so I just get mad that it's so hard for me to like, articulate what I'm thinking. I think of these little kiddos and I'm like, God, like if we could just, you know, feed them foods that support their gut health and what if we could help them discharge all that stored trauma in their bodies so that, you know, they would return to their baseline and they wouldn't have that mind, body dysregulation.

And what would it look like if we prioritize movement and sleep and we kind of reduced all the medications they were on. So I struggle because my. Is that we don't have a system that supports that we don't have a system that supports healing. I was actually recently told that I'm going to become pretty much a case manager.

I'm like, yeah, because that, that's what hospitals are turning into and I'm struggling with this. 'cause, I don't want to just give these kids a diagnosis and advantage of medication because I fear they're going to become the kids. They'll grow up to be the adults I worked with in the prison, because when I worked in the prison, I asked them all the time.

I said, what did you need that you didn't get? And all of them said, I wish somebody would have intervened when I was younger. And so that's my fear. I don't, I don't know if I'm answering the question, but my fear is just that, you know, they get these diagnoses, it becomes their identity. They think they can't heal.

They grow. And they ended up incarcerated or in a psych hospitals and they still have that belief of a diagnosis. Therefore, I am, I need these medications to live and I, it literally crushes my heart. Yeah,

Sadie: no, it makes. Eh, I really, again, could X to like how we approach physical versus mental health. We think of like, COVID, if you test positive for COVID for five days, you're not like, oh, I am COVID for years.

Like, that's just not how we approach it. And even things like after COVID or post COVID or whatever the term is for when you have those long-term effects in the brain fog, like you wouldn't refer to your. As, as being a COVID patient for that long period of time. And yet when you're presenting with symptoms of depression or anxiety, it becomes your identity and it becomes something that maybe you can't change, which isn't necessarily the case.

And yes, it's difficult. And you, you need to educate yourself and push yourself and try all these different things before you find what works. But it's not, once you get a diagnosis that, that, that that's the end point. That's not the end of the road. And so I think that I completely agree with you. I would love to hear what your, your favorite resources are, whether it's books or podcasts or different different treatment approaches what are, what are your favorite recommendations?

Tara: I am forever going down a rabbit hole. Like it's probably a problem. So I, I can't stop learning, but obviously, like I have the courageously podcasts and I invite tons of guests in the mental health space. So that's a huge resource for me also because they're essentially educating me. So that's one of them I love.

Books. And if I had to pick, I'm going to try to like go off the top of my head, but if I could pick books that I think everybody should read, it would definitely be wide in the window, which is an amazing book. The body keeps the score. I would read a mind of your own by Kelly Brogan. Ellen Vora has a really good book coming out this month in March.

That is, I don't know when this episode's coming out, but it came out or is coming out in March and it's the anatomy of anxiety. She is fantastic. And you know what your book I actually really like right now is the way of integrity by Martha Beck. And because I think a lot of people don't recognize that anxiety can come from being out of alignment with your inner truth.

It's almost like, you know, the inside of you is screaming, saying you are so out of alignment and it's presenting as anxiety and they're not recognizing it. So if you want to go down that path, that's a really good book too. Podcasts. I don't really have, like, I, I don't have a specific podcast. I think I'm just so much in research that I don't really listen to podcasts as often as I'd like, but I'd probably say those are my big things.

And then obviously I'm starting the somatic experience in program.

Sadie: Yeah, I love all those. And I think there's a lot of different places where people can start and kind of broaden their, their scope of what they're trying, what they're implementing and what could be the right fit for them. So I think that's huge.

Where can listeners find you and connect with you and continue to consume your work?

Tara: So I am the I'm mostly on Instagram at courageously dot, just the letter U so courageously.you. I have a podcast, it's the courageously a podcast. That's pretty much where I'm at. I don't have the bandwidth to be anywhere else, but people can connect with me there.

I did want to give one more resource that I forgot about that. I think everybody should check out. It's the website, Matt America. It is a fantastic resource for people. So I would definitely check that out.

Sadie: Awesome. We'll all of the books and podcasts and website and your podcast will be linked in the show notes so people can check those out.

But thank you so much for joining me, Tara. I know this episode is going to be so helpful for so many people and just really gives a very. New perspective on anxiety and, and treatment and hearing it from the, like the therapist side of things, because obviously I went through the experience of being in and out of the hospital and then doing more of the like integrative healing approach as I got less from the residential side of things.

And so it's really interesting to hear your perspective and kind of paint a full picture.

Tara: Yeah. Well, thank you for having me. It's been a blast. Of course,

Sadie: To recap this episode, Tara and I talked all about anxiety. We did a deep dive into causes and triggers. We talked about misconceptions and society about anxiety. We talked about the pros and cons of over-diagnosing and pathologizing anxiety presentations.

We talked about all of Tara's favorite recommendations, whether it's therapy, modalities, books different things that she implements in her practice coping skill, she recommends when you're experiencing anxiety and so much more. If you enjoyed this week's episode, make sure to leave a review, share it with a friend or family member.

And if you share it on Instagram, tag me at, at she persisted podcast and I'll make sure we post and give you a little shout out. So with that, I will see you next week.

© 2020 She Persisted LLC. This podcast is copyrighted subject matter owned by She Persisted LLC and She Persisted LLC reserves all rights in and to the podcast. Any use without She Persisted LLC’s express prior written consent is prohibited.