115. SUICIDE PREVENTION: What to Expect When Calling 988 + Reasons to Have Hope feat. Adia Fadaei

Sep 25

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TRIGGER WARNING for suicidal ideation and suicide prevention-related language

In honor of September being Suicide Prevention Month, I am sitting down with Adia Fadaei—a 19-year-old mental health and suicide prevention advocate. Her passion for eradicating the stigma surrounding mental health and suicidality began 14, working at Teen Line as a hotline listener, outreach presenter, and intern. She is a crisis counselor for 988 Crisis & Suicide Lifeline at Didi Hirsch Suicide Prevention Center. We discuss Adia's background in the suicide prevention industry, reasons to call 988, exactly what happens when you call 988, a role-play of what a 988 call is like, suicidal ambivalence, tools to use during an emotional crisis, warning signs of suicidality, common emotional responses to experiencing suicidal ideation, suicidal phrases being used as slang, what Adia hopes to see in the suicide prevention industry, debunking 988 misconceptions, and so much more! If you or a loved one is struggling with suicidal ideation, I highly recommend calling 988 or checking out the resources below. You are not alone!

Follow Adia on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/adiafadaei/

Mentioned In The Episode…

+ Didi Hirsch

+ Call or Text 988

+ Crisis Text Line (text HOME to 741741)

+ 13 Reasons Why effects research

+ SPRC Guidelines

+ National Action Alliance Guidelines

+ sprc.org

+ assp.org

+ Teenline

SHOP GUEST RECOMMENDATIONS: https://amzn.to/3A69GOC

Episode Sponsors

🛋This week's episode is sponsored by Teen Counseling. Teen Counseling is an online therapy program with over 14,000 licensed therapists in their network offering support with depression, anxiety, relationships, trauma, and more via text, talk, and video counseling. Head to teencounseling.com/shepersisted to find a therapist today!

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About She Persisted (formerly Nevertheless, She Persisted)

After a year and a half of intensive treatment for severe depression and anxiety, 18-year-old Sadie recounts her journey by interviewing family members, professionals, and fellow teens to offer self-improvement tips, DBT education, and personal experiences. She Persisted is the reminder that someone else has been there too and your inspiration to live your life worth living.

a note: this is an automated transcription so please ignore any accidental misspellings!

[00:00:00] Sadie: Welcome to she persisted. I'm your host. Sadie sat in a 19 year old from the bay area, studying psychology at the university of pencils. She processed. It is the teen mental health podcast made for teenagers by a team. In each episode, I'll bring you authentic, accessible, and relatable conversations about every aspect of mental wellness you can expect.

[00:00:20] Evidence-based Tina proved resources, coping skills, including lots of DBT insights and education. Each piece of content you consume, she persisted offers you a safe space to feel validated and understood in your struggle while encouraging you to take ownership of your journey and build your life worth living.

[00:00:37] So let's dive in.

[00:00:41] Hello. Hello and welcome back to sheep persisted. I am so excited for today's episode. It is part two of the suicide prevention miniseries, because September is suicide prevention month. Today's guest is such an amazing individual. She is a fellow 19 year old mental health and suicide prevention advocate.

[00:01:00] She started working at teen line as a hotline, listener outreach, presenter and intern at 14. And she now is a crisis counselor at the 9 88 crisis and suicide lifeline at DD Hersh suicide prevention center, as well as a full-time undergraduate student, also studying psychology. this episode is just phenomenal. I've been wanting to do an episode highlighting what happens when you call 9 88, what to expect with utilizing these resources, warning signs, how to support someone, et cetera. Since I started the podcast and while I've done some solo episodes on it, I hadn't found a guest who could speak so knowledgeably and effectively on the topic until a D and I connected doing Instagram live a couple months back.

[00:01:47] So when September rolled around, I immediately was like, will you please come on the podcast and share your insight, share your wisdom, because I know it will be so, so helpful for listeners. And so we had this amazing conversation and I am so excited for you to listen.

[00:02:00] I want to give you a little trigger warning. There are no graphics in this episode, but we do talk about suicidal ideation and use language in the context of suicide prevention. So talking about active versus passive urges and just kind of depicting these situations, but there's no graphics. It's all based on prevention and crisis management and tips to either navigate this yourself and call a crisis center or support someone struggling.

[00:02:25] So if you. Either yourself or struggling or someone in your life is I highly recommend giving this episode a listen, there's so much wisdom here and just so, so much hope for the suicide prevention industry and the direction that we're moving in as a society. So I really hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did as always make sure to subscribe, leave a review.

[00:02:46] If you haven't already follow on social media at she persisted podcast.

[00:02:51] And if this is helpful, share it with a friend or family member. So someone else can learn about how to help prevent suicide and support individuals struggling. So let's dive in. Thank you so much for joining me today on she persisted. I'm so excited to have you here and have this important conversation.

[00:03:09] It's so timely. It's perfect for September, which is suicide prevention month mm-hmm and you just have such a unique perspective. I've been wanting to have this conversation since I've started the podcast, but haven't felt like I was in the correct position or hadn't found a guess that could speak so knowledgeably and from such a point of experience, I'm just so excited to have you on.

[00:03:28] Adia: Thank you so much for having me Sadie. I am really looking forward to this conversation, especially during such a pertinent time, such as suicide prevention months, which is very near and dear to my heart. And I know for yours as well, especially with the mental health advocacy, that you're a part of every day on the frontline.

[00:03:45] Sadie: Thank you. Well, I'd love to start with your background, how you started working with DD Hirsch and working towards suicide prevention and mental health awareness and all of this, and what kind of began that passion and then how you found these different organizations and, and started working with that.

[00:04:02] Adia: For reference. I started working in suicide prevention when I was 14 and I'm 19. Now I'm gonna be 20 soon in this month during my favorite month. And wow, happy almost birthday to you too. Mine's

[00:04:15] Sadie: in March. So a little bit, but it's so funny. Cause I keep being like, do I like stop branding as a teen podcast?

[00:04:20] Like, I'm sure you're going through that as well, but you're like teen mental health advocate and now you're like very young adult mental health advocate, but still trying to talk to teens. It's such a funny position to be in

[00:04:30] Adia: it's so funny. I just have been saying that I'm like a lower case young adult, because I don't feel like I've got into the upper case Y a yet, but getting there, it's a weird, but interesting and unique space to navigate, especially for this population.

[00:04:47] Starting teen line at a young age is what got me involved in suicide prevention as a whole. It got me involved in the youth advocacy space. And from there once I graduated teen line, which is. Based in Los Angeles, I was able to be involved with DD her suicide prevention center. So DD her suicide prevention center is part of DD Hersh mental health services, which is one of our leading mental health providers nationally.

[00:05:14] They are incredible. A fun fact about the suicide prevention center is actually that it was a first suicide prevention center ever created. Wow. So the field of suicidal, which was coming out of these two ologists findings on psychological autopsies and their names are Dr. Barb and Dr. Shyman, and they founded the suicide prevention center and now de her suicide prevention center went at where I am, is where those individuals started.

[00:05:40] And that's why we have that lead nationally and why we're able to. Lead the call center is both in California and on a larger level to engender suicide prevention on national levels, but also through individual levels through crisis services and therapeutic services and other support. I've been there for a little over a year now, even though my start in the work kind of began at 14 and now I'm continuing, we were able to undergo intensive training similar to that of team line, but with more of a broad age context, because for instance, at team line, I was taking calls for youth.

[00:06:24] I think my youngest color there was probably around 10 and my oldest was probably around 19 or 20, the suicide prevention center in Los Angeles where I'm taking calls for 9 88. I've had my youngest call, I believe. As a nine year old. And then I had my oldest call recently and they were almost 90. So the range in age is different, but my heart is really for youth suicide prevention and youth mental health.

[00:06:56] And I know yours is the same. Yeah. But it's incredible to be in that space where as a youth, I'm able to have that platform, both to advocate for youth to represent youth and also to have the ability to take calls and serve them in that way. And also have that be a grounding form of my work and provide a lot of meaning for my life in this work.

[00:07:19] Sadie: Amazing. And it's, it's so incredible to think about how many people, of so many different ages you're impacting and supporting and helping. It's it just, yeah, no, it warms my heart to think about how much of an impact teens have and will have in the mental health world and with suicide prevention and how much people like you are already doing.

[00:07:40] We're definitely moving in the right direction, which is so encouraging to hear. One of the things that I really wanna talk about on this episode is what happens when you call 9 88 or a hotline or the suicide prevention center. Because I feel like if you haven't called before, there's a lot of anxiety about like what to expect, what is the person on the other side gonna say, like, I am someone that gets socially anxious.

[00:08:02] So I remember when I was like, I know I need this support. I know I need this help. It was a whole other barrier to be like, okay, I gotta pick up the phone. I gotta call. I gotta say, this is what's happen. So one of my first piece of advice is that I'll give before I get all of your insight about what to expect and, and advice for people who are considering this.

[00:08:20] And one to know if it's time to call is to like practice is to like go through the process of it's super overwhelming, mentally, think about it. Like, what would you say? The person's like, hi, how can I help you? How would you explain your situation? You can do it on a smaller scale. So maybe if you struggle, like with anxiety, you would do a text line and be like, I am like having a lot of anxiety or I'm having a panic attack.

[00:08:41] How can I get some support? And then if you're in the position where you're like, this is like life or death, I really need this support right now. You've done it before you built that muscle, you know what to expect. And it's one less hurdle to kind of go over to get the support that you need. And one less piece of anxiety I can get into the way, but I think to.

[00:09:01] What would be really helpful is to understand from you when to know if it's time to call or ask for help, what are the things that you guys look for? I think, especially for teens, if this has been creeping up for a really long time, or these thoughts have slowly been building, it's like, well, this is normal.

[00:09:16] This is what my life is always like, or this is how I always think it's hard to know if you qualify, isn't the right word, but if support could be helpful or if you're in a position where things maybe could be different in a positive way. So what would be your, your counsel or advice or some, some things that would mean that maybe it would be helpful to reach out for support and, and call a, a support line or 98 or suicide prevention center.

[00:09:42] Adia: What you're touching on is so important. And I think a really important segment and portion of that is how difficult and complex it can be to be a help seeker. Yeah. Although it is one of the most beautiful and powerful things one can do for themselves, for their community. It also is difficult. And I love what.

[00:10:05] Spoke on, which was even having a little time with yourself, maybe holding your phone as a practice in your room and wherever you have access to and practicing a call or practicing what that might look like. But I would also encourage someone that even if that's not something they have done, but if they feel that they need support to pick up the phone and, and really call in, we do see with youth specifically because of the way we communicate, how comfortable we've gotten to using digital platforms, such as texting to communicate, we see youth utilizing text lines a lot more than say a 58 year old individual.

[00:10:45] Obviously we know. The disconnect there. And that's why we are able to kind of meet needs where they're at. And so a lot of youth do text in, especially if their support is not as imminently needed. If they're not in a situation that might have life or death implications, where they're wanting to be validated, maybe even wanting to ramp that can look a little bit different that might look like texting into crisis, text line, where that might look into texting nine 80, which you can also do.

[00:11:14] It says on the shirt, right? And nine 80, when you call in, you can expect a few things. And a few of those things are really rooted in the power of active listening and of. Receiving and giving empathy. So when someone calls in, they don't have to necessarily engage in this long, complex, ongoing conversation where they have to say a lot or where they have to feel the need to explain everything in their life, because this is more imminent support.

[00:11:50] This is support that is supposed to be more temporary, right? Because long term support might look like psychotherapeutic support. It might look like going support groups. It might look like being involved in the community. It might like other supports that are maybe more culturally. Accepting and competent for their systems that they are able to thrive in.

[00:12:11] However, when you are calling into the 9 88, which by the way, is the lifeline that you can call into for mental health crisis, substance use crisis and or suicidal crisis. It can be all of the above, or it can be one of those. And then you can also call into nine 80, if you are worried about a loved one.

[00:12:31] And we also see this being especially unique and distinct to youth, which I know we'll talk about in a little bit, but I do want to mention that with the youth, having this special way of connecting to, to their peers, we do see that in research that is going off. Peer based support. We see youth being the first individuals, peers, being the first individuals, friends being the first individuals that their peers, their friends as youth will turn to.

[00:13:04] And when we know that we can also feel burdened by that at times. And so this is another reason why we really want the messaging surrounding 9 88 to be accurate in that you can call if you are in that imminent crisis, but you can also call on behalf of someone else. If you're noticing some warning signs, the ones that we'll talk about in a bit, or if you're noticing that a friend is talking about suicide, if you are even concerned, you're able to call on behalf of them as well.

[00:13:29] We see that with parents calling in for use, we see that for youth calling in for parents, there's so many different relational dynamics to which that. Be impacted. But if someone does call into nine eighty eight, they can expect us asking a few statistical questions such as their name and age. And sometimes people don't feel comfortable giving their name.

[00:13:47] They might, you know, my name is a di I might call into somewhere and say, my name is Allison, and that's completely fine. Having a name is really just so we can have something to refer to you to. And when I personally, when I speak, I use people's names. Like when I'm speaking to you, Sadie, I use your name.

[00:14:01] And so that's a big reason why just to build relational support, just to build rapport and build trust with the counselor and with the listener and have that be reciprocal. And then we ask for age usually, and a lot of times people don't wanna share that as well. That's completely okay. A big reason, however that we do ask for age is so that we can know what resources to really support someone with.

[00:14:25] So for example, if someone. 12th grade in high school is calling in and they are talking about how anxiousness and or an anxiety disorder has been affecting them. We can kind of assume they're being exacerbated stressers relating to maybe being a senior in high school and having those impacts on their health and wellbeing.

[00:14:48] Whereas if someone who's calling in who's a little younger or a little older might be calling in speaking on something else, we can just better understand the person in the situation. And then we also do ask questions for risk assessment and all of those are related to safety because suicidal is a spectrum because it can go anywhere from passive morbid ideation to imminent suicidal crisis.

[00:15:10] And we get calls all throughout that spectrum. We really want to assess where someone is on that and make sure that they're staying safe and make sure that we can support them, deescalate that crisis, reduce risk, meet them where they're at and support, bring support and refer to more long term ongoing support.

[00:15:28] Sadie: Two today's episode is brought to you by teen counseling. Teen counseling is better helps branch of therapy, specifically for teenagers save over 14,000 licensed therapists within their network. If you are struggling with suicidal ideation or supporting someone struggling therapy can be a really great use resource to have in your toolbox. It was helpful for me when I was in both of those positions and it truly changed my life. It saved my life and it just can be again, an amazing resource to have, and either supporting someone and having someone to support you as well, or when you are struggling having a, in a professional to.

[00:16:04] Give advice as far as resources, how to shift thoughts and behaviors and mood and all those kinds of things. So if you would like to check out teen counseling, you can go to teen counseling.com/she persisted. You all found a survey about what you're hoping to work on, whether that's school, stress, depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation, anything, and everything.

[00:16:23] And then teen counseling will match you with a therapist that specializes in that area. from there, you can start meeting with your therapist via talk, text, or video counseling. And if it's not a match at first, it's super easy to switch therapists and meet with someone new. So if you would like to check out teen counseling, you can use the link in today's show notes, or go to teen counseling.com/she persistent that

[00:16:45] Do you wanna do a little like role play, pretend I'm calling. And we can like walk through it for listeners who are like, okay, I understand the vague idea, but I would feel better if I've heard it before and they know what to expect.

[00:16:56] Adia: Totally. Totally.

[00:16:59] Sadie: Okay. I'm gonna go back to middle school, Sadie, who is very depressed, definitely on that suicide spectrum.

[00:17:04] All right. So dialing I've dialed nine, eight pick up. What's the first thing that

[00:17:09] Adia: happens. You say prevention center, crisis line. This is AIO. What's your name? Hi, I'm Sadie. Hi Sadie. Thank you so much for calling in. How old are you?

[00:17:21] Sadie: I am 16. I am in high school.

[00:17:26] Adia: Okay. And are you calling about yourself today or someone else I'm calling

[00:17:31] Sadie: about myself, I'm feeling really overwhelmed and I feel like I'm having more suicidal thoughts than I normally do, and I'm just not really sure how to cope with them. And I, I think I need some help.

[00:17:42] Adia: Okay. That's completely valid.

[00:17:44] Thank you so much for sharing that. I can understand that it would be incredibly difficult to be walking through that suicidal ideation right now. And.

[00:18:02] Sadie: No. I just feel like I'm thinking a lot of the time that I just really don't like the life that I'm living and I just feel like it would be easier and less overwhelming if I didn't have to go through this anymore. And I, I don't really have a plan. I just don't really feel like I wanna be alive anymore.

[00:18:21] Adia: Yeah. So when we are talking about that, essentially what we would do is a lot of active listening, a lot of validating, a lot of times individuals when they're calling in the hotline.

[00:18:30] So for example, when you called a lot of youth will be crying or, or might even be having a panic attack. And so we will kind of go through strategies to where we can ground the individual health round individual, help collaborate with individual on mindfulness, at least temporarily, so that we can get to a place where we can be calmer and where we can talk about what's going on.

[00:18:53] And we will. Deescalate the crisis. We can talk about what suicidal ideation looks like. Looks like again. That's why we, I asked you about plan and if someone were to talk about their plan and they did have a distinct plan, then we would ask about means. And if they have means for that plan, from there, we would ask about access to means availability of means.

[00:19:17] We know that accessibility of lethal means is a huge factor for suicide death. And so we want restrict that access in any way possible. And then if. That word to continue. We would ask about timeline and when that person wants to die by suicide. So a lot of it comes with assessing risk, but that is intertwined with active listening, emotional support, and really showing care for that individual.

[00:19:43] A lot of times when someone is in suicidal crisis and or a mental health crisis, they are in a state that is cognitively behaviorally quote, unquote, different to their normative state. And I hate the word normal because I don't think there's any such thing as normal. However, when we see something, so.

[00:20:06] Markedly different from someone's typical behaviors. We can pinpoint that. And so a lot of times, similarly to when you're angry at someone or something, or you're just angry in general, or if you're really sad and you're crying and sometimes you need to verbally process. So a lot of times what we do on the hotline is just allow for someone to have that space to verbally process.

[00:20:28] And through that, a lot of times individuals on their own are really able to find tools within themselves. So it really is that act of collaboration with someone, because we have the tools within us who, that we know ourselves best. We really know what we need. We know what support we're looking for most of the time, to some extent.

[00:20:48] So it's about helping someone in the midst of that. And then another really big aspect of that, especially when we're talking about suicidal ideation is this idea of suicidal ambivalence. Suicidal ambivalence really accentuates this idea that someone has such uncertainty about their suicidality. So there is a part of them that really wants to not be here anymore. And there's also part of them that wants to live. And what we do is focus of course, on the validation of someone's ideation and the depth and the humanity and emotionality and the difficulty that comes alongside that.

[00:21:26] But we also are really looking to talk about ambivalence and to talk about what part of you really wants to live. And so that will spark a lot of conversation. We can work together and kinda go from there. That's not comprehensive. I think it's important to acknowledge as well that we don't have a script.

[00:21:45] There are some things that we ask for safety, but we don't have a script. There's nothing perfectly we say that will ever fix. Quote, unquote, fix someone. We're not looking to fix anyone. What a call looks like is an individualized, personalized level of.

[00:22:01] Sadie: I love that. And I love what you just mentioned about like the, the good reasons or the reason to keep going.

[00:22:06] And I remember making those lists, it's almost like a pros and cons and really holding on to those small things, whether it was like going on a walk with my dog or looking forward to a certain breakfast or seeing a friend or listening to music or watching a favorite show. And if you are someone who is struggling, I highly recommend trying to implement that.

[00:22:26] Whenever those things come to mind, maybe it's a, a notes on your phone. Maybe it's a journal, a piece of paper and any of those little things. And when these big emotions do come up, look back at your list. And not only as a reminder, but engaging in those activities can be really helpful in, in lessening, those overwhelming urges and thoughts and emotions.

[00:22:46] You mentioned also some morning signs to be aware of what are those for listeners to be aware of either in themselves or in friends, family members loved ones, people in their community.

[00:22:59] Adia: Noticing the suicidality within ourselves and, or the suicidality within others, especially as a member of the youth community can be scary to see the least.

[00:23:10] Yeah. There have been so many times where we've spoken to people who are youth individuals and they share that they're actually scared of these thoughts that they've been having internally, that they've been experiencing these feelings. Hopelessness, but it it's just so terrifying and that makes sense.

[00:23:32] It can be scary to think about a really complex topic, really complex, and it can also be difficult when someone you love or someone you care about someone you want for them to trust you with, with these pieces of information, to be telling you that they are suicidal or exhibiting these warning signs.

[00:23:50] But it is very important that we recognize them, but also that we don't stop at recognition and that we don't stop at noticing, but that we continue with action. We continue with, we continue with some form of assessment and referral for that person. So some of these signs can look like. Really distinct changes in behavior.

[00:24:15] I know we talked about that earlier and what that can look like. Maybe someone having what could be considered a drastic haircut or suddenly they're giving away possessions. They're making statements that. Have some sort of central focus on death. Like I don't wanna be here anymore. I want to die. Life is meaningless.

[00:24:36] Life is hopeless. These types of statements are also

[00:24:40] Sadie: warning signs. And what's so hardest is that's like now literally a slang. And I remember that shift that I went through where, when I was very suicidal and I use that all the time, I'd be like, oh my gosh, that makes me wanna kill myself. Or this class is so terrible.

[00:24:54] I just wanna die. And it was like, I'd actually meant those things. It was like, yeah, people use

[00:24:58] Adia: that.

[00:24:59] Not

[00:24:59] Sadie: meaning it at all, but I did. And then I remember after no longer having those thoughts, it was just, I had this extreme aversion to ever saying those things ever again, because I so strongly didn't feel that way.

[00:25:11] And so that's a hard one nowadays to kind of distinguish like, are they just saying that because that's not something people say when they don't like something or is there meaning behind that?

[00:25:22] Adia: It is so hard. And I think that's where we have to differentiate between. Making those jokes and not making those jokes and also taking people seriously.

[00:25:34] Yeah. It's hard because if someone is quote, unquote, joking about suicide or saying, I wanna kill myself when they have no intent or desire to do so that takes away from people who are suicidal, people who are struggling. So that's why we wanna completely deviate from joking about this topic. It's not funny, it's serious.

[00:25:55] And also because we know with research and with evidence and with knowledge, really that. Someone who is suicidal, will exhibit warning signs such as mentioning it. We do not want to be talking about suicide when we don't mean it. Yeah, because it's very, very harmful on a large scale and on an individual scale.

[00:26:18] And so when someone does say something like I'm just gonna kill myself, I wanna kill myself a really important thing to ask. Even if it's a peer in class, I've done this before. And I have. Some conversations that were so meaningful, both because sometimes they led to me trying to share with someone why it's important, that we don't joke about these things if they are not suicidal.

[00:26:43] And also sometimes because we were, I was able to risk assess someone who actually was having exhausted suicide. So again, it can go both ways. And we always wanna ask if someone is making those statements, even if it's on their Snapchat story, if it's on a TikTok, if it's on Instagram, if it's on some video, they're recording.

[00:27:00] If they're saying that we wanna ask, are you having thoughts of suicide? Yeah. And what does that look like for you and kind of going from there other warning signs that someone might have. Behaviors that might be impulsive, might be erratic, might be something we'd consider reckless, obviously that those can be subjective terms.

[00:27:19] So that's why we want to think about the person and how they usually normatively act and see if these actions are really different and not in alignment with their typical traits or their typical personalities, their typical temperament. Yeah. But we really do wanna focus on that preoccupation with death, writing, texting, drawing, et cetera.

[00:27:41] I

[00:27:41] Sadie: remember all of those things. And I think if there's one really small action item that listeners can take away from this, what you just mentioned, which is not making those jokes. And it's, I made a TikTok about this before, where there was some sound going viral on TikTok. And I think it was from some anime episode where it was like something about wanting to kill yourself.

[00:28:01] And I made a TikTok where I was like, Just stop doing this, something along those lines where I was like, please stop doing this it's triggering. And there were so many comments where it was like, why do I have to adjust myself to not trigger you? Why, why are people so sensitive? This is ridiculous. And I completely understand the idea of being aware of your own triggers, not putting yourself in situations where you're going to get triggered, setting those boundaries.

[00:28:29] But I really going back to what you

[00:28:31] Adia: say, if

[00:28:33] Sadie: like, this is such a serious topic with so much truth, people that are saying these things can really need it. Like, what is the desire there to say that phrase? And I think even in a really small way, making the decision not to make those jokes could be. Meaning that someone doesn't get triggered and have a really terrible, scary, overwhelming thought or feeling, or urge or emotion and saving someone from that difficult experience that to me would make it completely worth it to make that shift because what's the other side of it, what it's like, oh, it's funny.

[00:29:07] Or someone's like, oh, they're so cool. They're like in touch with how people are talking. Like, it's just, when you weigh the general net suffering and impact, like why would you do that? It just, it doesn't make sense to me.

[00:29:22] Adia: I couldn't agree more. And I think there are two other things that come up for me when I hear about that.

[00:29:30] And it's the fact that language and messaging surrounding suicide, whatever that looks like is very important. This is why we have language guidelines and reporting guidelines on suicide, which are provided by. Numerous amount of suicide prevention, resource center, type organizations and resources, language around suicide matters.

[00:29:55] It matters so much that we have research informed life or death implications surrounding language for suicide. That's one humongous reason why it's so important. And secondly, a lot of times youth will say, well, this is just how I cope. And if that's an issue with you, then you're just not respecting how I cope.

[00:30:14] This is where we really need to focus on unhealthy versus healthy coping mechanisms. Yeah. And what type of coping mechanisms we're praising and normalizing and which ones that we're reinforcing. We don't want to be feeding into unhealthy coping mechanisms. We want to. Note and notice that there are ones that are extremely healthy and there are ones that are unhealthy and can lead to more detrimental consequences.

[00:30:40] And so these are two other reasons why so importantly, consider that further and are really serious about our language and intentional and meaningful because people are meaningful and we wanna be very careful. Yeah.

[00:30:54] Sadie: If there was one skill that you could give listeners to add to their toolbox, if they're calling in and are feeling suicidal and overwhelmed and in crisis, and then one prob probably would be described as a skill as well.

[00:31:09] But for someone listening that you implement, when you're talking to someone that's in crisis mode from kind of both those perspectives,

[00:31:16] Adia: what would that. That's a great question. With. People who are calling into the hotline. A lot of times, we also have to think about people who aren't calling into the hotline who still might need that support, who aren't getting it. And that's a big reason why 9 88, the number in itself would even change and why that inherently shows a greater accessibility for those needing support in times of crisis 98 is.

[00:31:45] Easy type really quickly when you are in crisis. So with that, we also want to think about those who might not necessarily have that pattern of help seeking for whatever reason. There are many reasons why individuals can be deterred from help seeking. It can have a lot to do with parents. I think we can call the older generation out when we're talking about youth mental health.

[00:32:06] That's a huge reason. People don't reach out for health because their parents are the ones, not all the time, but a lot of the time that are deterring them from seeking mental health support. We also see peers shutting down other peers. We also just see. Things such as cultural stigma. I know I can speak on behalf of my middle Eastern community.

[00:32:30] We have an enormous amount of cultural stigma surrounding mental health and help seeking. So we really do have to look at it from a holistic full perspective, but with help seeking, I think one skill that is seemingly minor, but can really help with even calling into places like 9 88 is even starting off small.

[00:32:52] So if someone is in school, starting by asking their teacher for help on an assignment or starting by asking someone, and again, these are asking people who are trustworthy, who are safe, but asking safe people for even what might be considered small things, asking a friend for help. Hey, can you. Wash my car something small.

[00:33:17] Yeah. But having that pattern of asking for help when, when needed to people who are going to support you, who are caring and who are equipped to do so, that can be really important. And then in other times we can, if you're kind of wanting to learn how to help seek again, because 98 is not a first resort in terms of mental health support.

[00:33:41] If someone is kind of just wanting to talk about mental health as a general, that may not be the place to go to call into 98. Yeah. This is what we want to reserve for. More crisis. Yeah. And emergency type calls. However, we have things such as warm lines. We have things such as mental health organizations.

[00:34:01] We have a lot of online school, counselors,

[00:34:04] Sadie: teachers, family, friends, parents, hopefully. Yes. So many people that are becoming more equipped and being able to listen. And, and your pediatrician is a huge one. People don't always think of. Absolutely. Yeah,

[00:34:18] Adia: absolutely. And it's really establishing. So those skills of establishing, identifying support systems, establishing, identifying coping skills, these can really intertwine and be foundations for help seeking in the future.

[00:34:32] If, and when there is a need for more imminent crisis support. And I think in terms of being a hotline listener, one of the skills that has been most important for me to learn, and which is usually some of the fundamental. Lessons that is taught in any form of crisis support for suicide is, and this is what we say at D is sitting in the dark place with someone and learning that skill deconstructing it's actually relearning.

[00:35:07] So we're deconstructing and counteracting the skills that we are used to in our society of fixing of achieving, of accomplishing, of changing people's minds of having these moral discussions. Not that there isn't a time and place for that, but in the field of suicide prevention and the field of crisis support, what someone is looking for is for another person to sit in the dark place with them.

[00:35:31] And at DD hurs at the suicide prevention center and also within the 9 88 lifeline network, there are like 200 call centers across the country within the network. This is a huge. Huge part of suicide prevention and support that we are touching on is sitting in the dark place with someone and having empathy, not wanting to necessarily try and fix someone.

[00:35:54] A lot of people when I tell them that I am a crisis counselor, because I think that in, in itself is a form of advocacy talking about, yeah, how I am, am the counselor. Because when we know that talking about suicide in a righteous and accurate way marked by correct information and storytelling can reduce suicide stigma.

[00:36:13] That's what I try to do as well through even talking about being a crisis counselor, I have always been asked, oh, so what is that magic statement? Or that magic question question that you ask or say that just stops people from being suicidal. And I see the sentiment with that. I also see that there is an underlying layer of.

[00:36:35] Hopefulness and even wishful thinking that we really want to have, but in actuality, someone can be affected by suicidal and have even passive, morbid, suicidal ideation for a long period of time, but be able to have coping mechanisms, support systems, and even ability to help seek that can help them through.

[00:36:54] We don't know how long that might last. Yeah. So sitting in the dark place, rather than trying to have some magical fixed statement yeah. Marked by toxic positivity instead, really walking with someone in a realistic, but hopeful

[00:37:09] Sadie: way. Yeah. I love what you mentioned there with both of those. I think one of the biggest misconceptions with mental health is.

[00:37:17] You either like have the skills and the ability to navigate life's challenges or you don't. And if you don't, you have these thoughts, these emotions, these diagnoses, and it's just not the case. Like it's all about building that muscle of coping and asking for help and listening to others and being engaged in your community.

[00:37:34] And like you mentioned doing that work before you really need it. Like you mentioned, calling 9 88 is a last crisis resort. Like you need help. You don't know where else to go. So what can you put in place before then if you ever do struggle with suicidal ideation or are in a mental health crisis or struggling to regulate your emotions?

[00:37:56] What can you do before you get to that point to

[00:37:59] Adia: cope with those things?

[00:38:01] Sadie: Whether it's like, okay, I'm gonna practice my deep breathing, or I'm gonna have a list of coping skills I've heard work really well, or these are the people I can call. If I know I'm overwhelmed all of these different things that you can do to prepare yourself for success, because just like anything in life, you're not gonna know how to do it perfectly the first time.

[00:38:19] And that's true for mental health as well. And I wish people realize that it really is a lot of practice and working that muscle and skills, education, and continuing to, to improve in that ability to be able to navigate

[00:38:33] Adia: these things. Absolutely. And that's what we call safety planning and safety planning can be an intervention.

[00:38:41] It can be post function, but it can also be proactive that. A segment of suicide prevention and awareness that we need to be focusing on more. Yeah. On a really large scale is proactive suicide prevention. And that again is on that individual level that you're talking about and also on systemic levels.

[00:39:03] And with those being intertwined and working together and collaborating, we can be better at effectively preventing and reducing suicide and providing support for those in suicidal crisis and need.

[00:39:18] Sadie: Today's podcast episode is brought to you by waveform social. I have been busy, busy, and we are starting a new social media management company, specifically for podcasters. So everything that you see me doing with promoting she persisted, I am now offering to fellow podcasters. So to get super specific with you, that means podcast, web design, and development, monthly social media management, or monthly podcast, marketing management, all done for you, making your life easier. So you can first, so you can focus on podcast, interviews and episodes and leave the marketing to the professionals.

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[00:40:15] Is there anything else that comes to mind that you hope to see within the, the suicide prevention world and the mental health community in the next year, five years, 10 years shifts that you hope to see improvements to be made ways that we're having this conversation from being in this world for, for now many years,

[00:40:34] Adia: I really am hoping for a much larger emphasis on suicide prevention specifically, even within the mental health world, we have so much lack in knowledge surrounding suicide prevention in clinicians who have suicide.

[00:40:54] Prevention suicide, special support and backing, and we need more emphasis on suicide prevention within the mental health field. For sure. We, I'm hoping that we move away, especially in terms of suicide in the media world, we move away from alarmist language, fatalist language. For example, we're constantly talking about the pandemic or the epidemic or skyrocketing of suicide.

[00:41:23] And we don't use we in the suicide prevention world. We don't use those words because those words are alarmist and they have this fatalist type of messaging that cloud. Suicide prevention into the topic with a level of pessimism and hopelessness that we want to divert from. Yeah. So we have to be moving away from that type of languaging.

[00:41:47] We also have to move away from the glorification and romanticizing of suicide, whether this is again on individual levels where we are not posting tos that is romanticizing or glorifying mental illness and or suicide. Yeah. And then that also comes with larger media groups,

[00:42:07] Sadie: which, which in reasons why news

[00:42:09] Adia: 13 reasons, why is an incredible example.

[00:42:12] And I would encourage anyone to look into the research that was done

[00:42:15] Sadie: following 30% increase in adolescent suicides. Yes. And there's multiple seasons. Like it just blows my mind.

[00:42:24] Adia: It blows my mind as well, but it really shows how. It can be concerning when we get to a place on a societal level where media is not utilizing those guidelines on suicide when they are not concerned about the wellbeing of.

[00:42:42] The individuals who are taking in what they're putting out. And also this comes naturally, unfortunately with our shift towards commercializing and crowding the mental health space, which is incredibly prominent right now. And so with all of this I am hoping that we instead are shifting to more action and tangible support for youth we're shifting to bettering our crisis care continuum.

[00:43:07] That's already begun with 9 88 implementation and 9 88 rollout into legislative efforts that have, or we've had many sectors come together from government officials to clinicians, to non-profit organizations, to community, places, to educators where all sectors of society. We need a unity in bettering.

[00:43:30] Our mental health landscape and suicide prevention overall, specifically in the crisis care continuum. I hope that we shift towards, again, more suicide competency amongst those in the field. More legislative change, more psychoeducation, which includes prevention, intervention, and postvention. More treatment access better into more competent languaging around suicide.

[00:43:54] If you kind of look into it with the suicide prevention resource center or the national action Alliance, there are incredible resources to where you can see what language. Both in individual context and in media context can be utilized for the effective reporting of suicide. I'm also hoping to be turning away from those awful media portrayals.

[00:44:18] Even when we see news articles being written about suicide, we do have guidelines for those as well. And so I'm hoping that there is more unity. I think unity has many parts and it's really. Founded upon an idea of hope and what you will continuously and surprisingly hear from every single person at the suicide prevention center I'm at.

[00:44:44] And the majority of people who work in suicide prevention is that we see hope. We really see hope. We see hope through statistics, where right now we are actually seeing what a lot of people don't know is a decrease in suicide. Our most recent 2020 CDC statistics show a 3% decrease in suicide, especially because rates have been historically and statistically rising, it is important to know even the hope and statistics and how they have decreased recently. Yeah. So we wanna be focusing mental health rates,

[00:45:19] Sadie: fries, which is huge.

[00:45:21] More people, people are struggling, but they're coping more effectively and they're getting access to more resources. And, and the ways that they're choosing to deal with these things is, is for the better, which is

[00:45:32] Adia: amazing. Yes. And we've been having better care for those who have lethal means than reducing access.

[00:45:41] Those strategies have been incredible. Also any time that we have worked on our reporting and languaging on suicide, that has been extremely effective. So I am hoping that the future of the mental health world does have that emphasis on suicide prevention. Especially as we know, the majority of people who die by suicide had a diagnosed and, or a diagnosable mental health issue, I think about 96% when they were kind of taken for psychological autopsies, we see that.

[00:46:11] So we do need to have the emphasis on suicide prevention in the mental health field, but. Want to further emphasize the need for hopeful suicide prevention that is not marked by toxic positivity, but also not marked by fatalism and pessimism and hopelessness. Yeah. We're

[00:46:32] Sadie: literally talking exactly about that in my psych, my social psychology class, we started by doing this giant like true false thing.

[00:46:40] And he was like, everything you thought was true is wrong. These statistics are not correct. A lot of what we have heard and believe to be true in social psychology, either isn't accurate. And we were talking about the availability heuristic, which is the idea, is that the thing that most easily comes to mind you increase.

[00:47:00] You believe there's an increased chance that it'll happen or it'll happen again. And the things that are front of mind based on the way we've evolved are really negative, intense emotions. And so this is true with women, female murders, which is that you think like, oh my gosh, women are at such a huge threat.

[00:47:17] Like I thought that I feel that out on the quiz, I was like, true woman, more females get murdered. And most serial killers, target woman false. The vast majority is, is men. And serial killers are so far and few between that. It doesn't really even add to that. That number, but those emotions that, that negativity is so huge and overwhelming and shocking that it sits front of mind.

[00:47:40] And then the way that we think about it through the availability heuristic is we think it's more likely to happen. And we think that it's more likely to happen again. And so I think having that lens and being aware of that, when you're reading these articles, when you're reading these stories, when you're consuming this content, you're just putting yourself in a position where you, you think it's more likely to happen, and that might not be totally accurate in checking the facts.

[00:48:03] Like you mentioned that suicides are decreasing and that the, they do get a ton of media attention. There's, there's a, there's a lot more to that, that story. And that landscape. The last thing that I wanna touch on, if people are on the mental health side of Instagram and TikTok is some interesting posts that were going around about 9 88, where people were.

[00:48:24] Don't and there was a couple news articles about it as well. My mom sent me one from NPR and I was like, this is how annoying I hate this. I'll talk about it on the podcast. But people are posting and being like 9 88 is not what you think it is like it, you get put into a system, it could be really traumatic.

[00:48:40] And I'd love to get your first impressions there about that post. And then we can kind of unpack that, debunk that myth that's going around because we're both of the belief mental health is health. And if anyone called 9 1 1 and was like, hi, my leg is falling off. You would get an ambulance. You'd go to the hospital.

[00:48:58] You'd probably get surgery. You'd be in the hospital, recover like this is the natural course of action. And it just speaks to how we think about mental health as a whole, that you wouldn't expect the same course of action to be taken. And then when that does happen, you're like, whoa, what? Like, no, that makes sense.

[00:49:13] You're getting support. You're getting access to resources. So what were your first thoughts? Impressions

[00:49:17] Adia: when you read that? Those infographics going around were misinformed. Yeah. Were marked by misconceptions and misinformation. And they also were on a personal level, difficult and hurtful too, to hear and look at and read, especially because a lot of them were not deriving from realistic narratives or realistic statistics in any way.

[00:49:48] I remember part of that infographic sharing about how 9 88 was interconnected with law enforcement. This is completely false. There were also other parts of the infographic. Now we're, we're talking about how 9 88 utilizes geo tracking. This is also false and this information is debunked heavily through our substance use mental health services administration.

[00:50:13] We have. FAQs on that website, about 9 88 through VI vibrant emotional health, which is the nonprofit administrator of the lifeline networks, which debunks a lot of this as well. So it was definitely a unique time because partially in many. Parts of the landscape. We were promoting nine 80 and we were sharing about it and we were sharing.

[00:50:39] That's a huge step we have on this. Absolutely. It's a huge step. And we have to look at everything comprehensively. We have to acknowledge the duality of everything. We have to acknowledge the rollout for what it is, which is a next step, but not a comprehensive and final one for successful crisis response.

[00:50:57] And although 9 88 legislation is working on universalizing crisis response, ensuring that all 200 plus crisis centers are all on the same page. These crisis centers are individually run by nonprofits, which also shows the deviation we have from law enforcement agencies. We actually do center a lot on community based responses.

[00:51:18] Only about 2% of lifeline calls are. In emergency response and about half of those are voluntary. So it's important to mention that when we are speaking to someone, if someone is an imminent crisis, a lot of times we will get to a place where that person voluntarily goes and seeks emergency support.

[00:51:40] However, what you are mentioning about the lack of equity between mental health and physical health is that was a huge, huge point you made. We don't, we don't view them equally. And we've even seen that with the 9 88 rollout. And I think another thing with these infographics with these articles is that when we are learning about new information, especially specifically in the field of mental health, specifically in the field of suicide, which already.

[00:52:12] Is so characterized by stigma and misconceptions and misinformation. We want ensure that we are going to sources that are reputable, where we're gonna, the sources where we can rely on. And a lot of times that's not gonna be in an Instagram post that doesn't have any resources links to it that doesn't have any research articles noted in it.

[00:52:38] We are going to be having to go to places like the CDC, like the world health organization, like the suicide prevention resource center. Nonprofits in the suicide prevention world that are on the front lines that are doing that work, or even going to that 9 88 lifeline website, going to substance use mental health services and administration website, where we can actually get information and learn about things like 9 88.

[00:53:00] Further. It's important to note that nine 80 is not a new hotline system. The main. Change with 9 88 was the number. And it also was legislative efforts and funding towards suicide prevention on a national level to be able to universalize and better crisis response.

[00:53:18] So we can better support individuals. However, this is not a new number. This isn't something that we are just trying out the lifeline network, the national suicide prevention lifeline 1 8 2 3 8 2, also a logic song. Maybe he's gonna make a new, I saw this thing on Instagram where everyone was like logic needs to come out with song.

[00:53:37] So funny song a I funny lifeline network has preexisting. Yeah. It's just a betterment of the network that has been existing. And that research has shown has efficacy, especially in what we do, which again is imminent crisis response. We are not. In replacement of therapeutic support, we are not in replacement of cultural networks.

[00:54:05] We are not in replacement of educators, teachers, any of the nonprofits, we are not in replacement. We are working towards a unified system that can better individual's wellbeing, and that can better support individuals. We are working towards unity. And I think that we need to be focusing on unity as an essential aspect of suicide prevention, especially as we continue.

[00:54:31] And especially as we receive the new statistics that the CDC will put out soon.

[00:54:35] Sadie: Yeah, no, I love that. And I think another huge thing that was missing in that is how important and crucial step 9 88 is taking, because the alternative prior was, if you weren't aware of the suicide hotline was calling 9 1 1, which is what a lot of people did myself, my parents included, and that protocol is.

[00:54:56] Police fire department, ambulance all show up at your house or wherever you are attempt to handle the situation. You're not getting mental health support from mental health counselors. If you ha had a plan or were unsafe, you likely would go to an emergency room, experience a hospitalization, which is what was kind of referenced in, in this post.

[00:55:14] And I, I went through that myself. It saved my life. It was very a necessary intervention. It was very helpful. And like you mentioned, the 2% of cases that that sometimes is a necessary and helpful next step. But what 9 88 does is instead of diverting those calls to police, fire engines and ambulances, you have trained mental health counselors and knowing exactly what the resources are, what coping skills you can use, what your next steps are and able to more effectively evaluate where you are on that suicidality spectrum.

[00:55:46] And so like,

[00:55:48] Adia: it just, it

[00:55:48] Sadie: didn't make sense. I was like, you're literally talking about calling 9 1 1. Not 9 88, like just like it completely missed what an important shift this was and how much more effective and evidence based the resources were becoming as opposed to, to what they are before. And the research shows that one mental health professionals are used in these crisis.

[00:56:10] Interventions, the outcomes are drastically improved than police or, or fire men and ambulance interventions. And. Like you said so misinformed. So not fact based and really unfortunate that it happened in the rollout of this number and that it got as much attention as we did. But then again, we think about the availability heuristic.

[00:56:31] We think about these shocking negative emotions, these stories that people have emotional responses too. So they identify with, they share feels like it's more likely to happen even though it's not actually. And I think that's so important to keep in mind and kind of bust that myth at the, at the end of this episode, if that's something people were aware of or a question that that came up, I think that was really helpful to kind of explain and give more context

[00:56:55] Adia: too.

[00:56:57] Absolutely.

[00:56:58] Sadie: Well, where can people continue to follow you and continue to work and utilize the resources of the amazing programs that you

[00:57:07] Adia: mentioned. Totally. You can find me at my three months. I think old Instagram I did a really long social media break.

[00:57:19] That's a whole other podcast episode in itself, but it's a DDI I'm. Iranian. So it's hard. It's just, you'll be in the show notes. I get it. no, we're gonna make everyone just figure it out. But and then a really big resource I always want to refer to with suicide prevention is S prc.org. So simple to remember the suicide prevention resource center, a literal hub of resources for everything you need with suicide prevention.

[00:57:49] And then ASSP is one of our leading nonprofits on suicide prevention. My personal heart is, is with teen line as well, which is a youth crisis hotline, which youth can call into and potentially volunteer with if they're in that area. And then there's DD hich mental health services and the suicide prevention center, which of course is another piece of my heart.

[00:58:12] So these incredible resources are there and they have so much information and they're just waiting for you to tap into them and to look into them.

[00:58:22] Sadie: I love that. And I I'm just so grateful for you for sharing so much information. If I had this podcast episode five years ago, it would've been a game changer.

[00:58:31] It just, I feel like this information should be something that all teenagers get in middle school and all teenagers are aware of. And unfortunately they're not yet, but will get to that point. So I'm just so grateful for you for sharing so much and providing so much information and insight for, for everyone listening.

[00:58:50] Adia: Thank you

[00:58:51] Sadie: Sadie. While

[00:58:51] Adia: we're looking to fill those gaps, we have your podcast that we try. Love your podcast. Listen, your podcast in my, oh,

[00:59:02] Sadie: I love it. I love it. I appreciate that. Well, thank you again. I just, yeah, I can't wait for people to listen.

[00:59:08] Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of she persisted. If you enjoyed, make sure to share with a friend or family member, it really helps out the podcast. And if you haven't already leave a review on apple podcasts or Spotify, you can also make sure to follow along at actually persisted podcast on both Instagram and Tik TOK, and check out all the bonus resources, content and information on my website.

[00:59:30] She persisted podcast.com. Thanks for supporting. Keep persisting and I'll see you next week.

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