149. How to THRIVE as a College Student aka YOUR ULTIMATE COLLEGE TOOLKIT feat Dr. Olivo & Dr. Seidler

May 28

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#149 Today's guests are Dr. Sarah Olivo and Dr. Liz Seidler— two clinical psychologists and hosts of the College is Fine, Everything is Fine podcast who've helped students navigate the highs and lows of college for over a decade. In this episode, we discuss why college students can benefit from using DBT skills, how to manage your emotions, understand others’ states of mind, and use your wise mind as a college student, common dialectics that college students deal with, specific DBT skills for college students on reducing emotional vulnerability, improving relationships, and self-advocacy, and advice for college freshmen who are struggling.

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🛋This week's episode is sponsored by Teen Counseling. Teen Counseling is an online therapy program with over 14,000 licensed therapists in their network offering support with depression, anxiety, relationships, trauma, and more via text, talk, and video counseling. Head to teencounseling.com/shepersisted to find a therapist today!

About She Persisted (formerly Nevertheless, She Persisted)

After a year and a half of intensive treatment for severe depression and anxiety, 18-year-old Sadie recounts her journey by interviewing family members, professionals, and fellow teens to offer self-improvement tips, DBT education, and personal experiences. She Persisted is the reminder that someone else has been there too and your inspiration to live your life worth living.

a note: this is an automated transcription so please ignore any accidental misspellings!

[00:00:00] Sadie: Welcome to She Persisted. I'm your host, Sadie Sutton, a 19 year old from the Bay Area studying psychology at the University of Penn. She Persisted is the Teen Mental Health Podcast made for teenagers by a teen. In each episode, I'll bring you authentic, accessible, and relatable conversations about every aspect of mental wellness.

[00:00:19] You can expect evidence-based, teen approved resources, coping skills, including lots of D B T insights and education in. Each piece of content you consume, she persisted, Offers you a safe space to feel validated and understood in your struggle, while encouraging you to take ownership of your journey and build your life worth living.

[00:00:37] So let's dive in this week on She persisted.

[00:00:41] Liz: I think people mistaken.

[00:00:43] Maintaining our self-respect as being aggressive or abrasive in terms of assertiveness skills. There's a way for you, here's a dialectic to be gentle and assertive at the same time. And there's a way to maintain a relationship with someone and still draw a line in the sand.

[00:00:59] And it's all about how you do that, right? Can you validate their perspective? Can you be gentle with your language, not attack them, et

[00:01:06] Sadie: cetera

[00:01:07] hello. Hello and welcome back to She Persisted. I'm excited for this week's episode. It is hilarious. I was laughing the whole time

[00:01:16] and we have two fellow D B T nerds on the show this week. They also host a D B T podcast. You should definitely check it out, especially if you are a college student and you want a therapist insight on how you can thrive, and that is what we are diving into this week. But if you want a lot more depth and insight and episodes on those specific topics, definitely check out their show.

[00:01:37] But for today's conversation, we have Sarah and Liz from the college's. Fine. Everything is fine. Podcast, they're clinical psychologists and. We are talking about using D B T to thrive as a college student. So we are talking about managing your emotions, understanding others' perspectives, using your wise mind, dialectics as a college student, specific skills you can be using, reducing emotional vulnerability, improving your relationships, advocating for yourself, and so much advice about what to do if you are struggling with your mental health in college.

[00:02:08] If you don't know, we are doing a mini-series on mental health in college as everyone is gearing up to find out where they're going to school, moving in, writing their college application.

[00:02:16] So two weeks ago we had, on the college psychiatrist, we talked all about getting help in college, what the college mental health resource support system is like,

[00:02:25] and Dr. Bush's advice for students. Last week we talked about talking about mental health in your college applications, and this week we're talking about D B T in college, so loving this series, next week you're getting a q and a, and in the following week, we're talking about writing your applications, writing your essays, et cetera.

[00:02:44] But I am really hoping this series is helpful because it is a stressful time period to be applying to college and then moving to college, navigating that huge change in life. So I really hope this miniseries is helpful in navigating all of these different elements of the college experience. And I really do feel like this episode is going to help so many people.

[00:03:03] This episode is phenomenal. It's hilarious. I was laughing the whole time. They are great, but they're so incredibly insightful. They give the best advice and it's backed in D P T, which you guys know I love. So as always, if you enjoy this week's episode of She Persisted, make sure toot leave, review, share with a friend or family member, be shared on social media.

[00:03:21] Tag me at She Persisted podcast and I'll give you a little shout out. But with that, let's dive into this phenomenal conversation to continue our mental health and college series. This summer. Well, thank you guys so much for joining me today on She Persisted. I'm so excited to have you on the show and talk. All things d p t.

[00:03:41] Sarah: We're excited too. I know. Thanks for having us.

[00:03:44] Sadie: Of course. I would love to start and make this episode like really a starting point for anyone who hasn't done D B T before, but is looking for a resource.

[00:03:55] To more effectively cope with college, manage college, navigate the stressors, and really do it from a D P T perspective, because I feel like most people have heard the basic things like, make sure you're getting enough sleep or make sure you know where your counseling center is, but D P T offers such.

[00:04:11] Simple and very manageable and specific ways that you can cope with stressors in a really effective way. And so I think it'd be so great to give people a lot of tangible takeaways, coping skills they can actually implement and ways that they can cope with things rather than like, just think on it.

[00:04:27] Just reflect a little bit. It'll all be okay. Because that can be so overwhelming and discouraging when you're like, I just need help. I don't know what to do.

[00:04:35] Sarah: Absolutely. And I, it might be a good thing we always. Want the people listening to us, our audience, the college kids, we see anyone to, to vet us. You know?

[00:04:44] So what does it mean? Yeah. How do we know D B T? You know, Liz, I feel like I should really default to you. You are quite the D B T expert. I have been intensively trained in D B T, which means that I can sort of check that box and say I'm a D B T therapist. But Liz is really currently practicing it right now.

[00:05:03] So I'll defer to her.

[00:05:05] Liz: Okay, thanks Sarah. Way to pump me up. You need a little crown?

[00:05:09] Sarah: Take a little crown. Yes. You know, floater,

[00:05:11] Liz: you know, one of the, I think just start with, one of the core assumptions within D B T is that we're doing the best that we can and that we need to work harder, be more motivated for change.

[00:05:22] And I really think that. College is a perfect time to really try to hold that assumption to be true. You know, I think there's a lot of pressure to get to college and kind of nail everything within the first month. Find all my friends, pick my major, figure out my internship is for the summer, and like somehow figure out how to love the dining hall food.

[00:05:42] Like it's a lot of special still working

[00:05:44] Sadie: on that one. I know I do a lot of grocery shopping, which my parents like, are you kidding? And I'm like, it's just so bad you don't understand. I know.

[00:05:52] Liz: So I, I think kind of validating that you probably are doing the best you can in any given moment, but that's probably not sufficient enough to just kind of hold that truth.

[00:06:04] Alone to be true. And then highlighting this other side that you probably need to push yourself harder for change. You know, rather than like sitting around and being miserable, that nobody in your dorm are people you wanna hang out with. Or the fact that like you only like grilled cheese in the dining hall, or that you hate all your classes.

[00:06:22] Like you have to figure out how to problem solve and change some of your life circumstances. So I think it Really thinking about our adjustment to college and our college experience in a balanced way where we can really acknowledge that we're always trying to do the best we can and that we really need to motivate ourselves to do better is a perfect starting point to kind of figure out what do I need to work on?

[00:06:47] What D B T skills do I really need to think about that might help me as I adjust to college and as I You know, progressed through my college years. and I think I'm biased, but you know, you guys chime in. You both love D V T too. I think just starting at the basics, understanding the states of mind in D V T is a really useful starting point.

[00:07:08] We often make. A lot of decisions based upon our emotions that can kind of get us into trouble, myself included. And being able to recognize like which state of mind you're in at any given time, I think is a really useful starting point to then determine like, what other things do I need to kind of pay attention to?

[00:07:27] What other skills do I need to practice? And I'm sure you've covered it, Sadie in other episodes what the states of mind are, but. I'm happy for anyone else to take the mic.

[00:07:38] Sarah: Well, Sadie, tell us your audience. How much do they know about DBT as a whole? Because I find that you can say D B T, but it means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

[00:07:48] Yeah,

[00:07:49] Sadie: it's so interesting because I have some listeners that are either parents who have been through D B T, I've even been to McClean. I have some listeners who have gone through D B T. They love it. They use it every day. And then there's always people that have never heard of D B T and so. There's all of this huge spectrum and it's interesting because I'm sure you guys have had this experience many times where like there's no downside to learning the skills again.

[00:08:12] Yeah. And in fact, part of treatment was learning them like six times through, because you learn something new every time. It's helpful to make sure you're implementing them as effectively as possible. And is what allows you to get better. And so you're constantly looking at the worksheets, applying them to new situations.

[00:08:28] So I think it'd be so helpful to kind of go over those. States of mind, especially as they apply to different decisions that you're making in college, whether it's with choosing classes or a major, or setting boundaries with friends or deciding like more lifestyle changes. So what are your guys' thoughts there with, with wise mind, emotion, mind and rational mind, especially for college students.

[00:08:48] Sarah: I think I use these terms all day, every day, even with mm-hmm. Friends, to the extent that I forget sometimes that it's not under first language for a lot of people. Yeah. Even the words dialectical behavior therapy, it starts off with the word that most people are like, what does that even mean? And we know within this treatment, it means a lot of tensions between change and acceptance, between emotion, mind and logical.

[00:09:11] Mind and wise mind. So even that word is difficult, but I think the basic. Mindfulness principles that they start off with. Anyone who's doing D B T is gonna know pretty quickly. Emotion mind is that hotheaded place. It's where it can feel somewhat impulsive. It's sort of our instinct. You know what our lizard brain is telling us to do.

[00:09:29] So there's a lot of good information there. There's reasons we have emotions. Then you've got the more kind of calculator or logical mind. That is able to think through things from a more cognitive perspective or a more modern brain. It's saying, okay, don't just think about what feels good right now or feel scary right now, but think about me.

[00:09:49] I'm Sarah, right? What do I need to do in a week? Okay, plan for that. And then you oftentimes, you know, you have people who tend to veer. Towards one or the other. And emotions don't really talk to logic all the time. And logic doesn't really speak the language of emotion all the time. But you have people who get really emotional and then they'll say, swing to logic.

[00:10:10] Oh, it doesn't make sense that I feel that emotion in this place. You know? Or they'll get really, really logical and not pay attention to some really important emotions. So for many, many reasons wise mind is that fusion of the two. And it also brings in things like, what are your values? What is that gut instinct?

[00:10:27] What's important to you? I always think of it as saying, are you being the Sarah or Sadie or Liz? You really wanna be in that moment that feels like you. So it pays attention to emotions and it also brings in some of that logic and it fuses it with that core that you uniqueness. And that's typically where you wanna be making it, at the very least.

[00:10:49] Long-term decisions or important big decisions. Yeah. Liz and I like to say like we are not just floating around on a wise minds end state all the time. You kinda have play

[00:10:57] Sadie: by no means. Yeah, yeah,

[00:10:59] Liz: yeah. I think that the area that, if I'm thinking about for college students, there's a lot of examples where states of mind could be helpful.

[00:11:08] But one area that, and I don't think it's taught this way a lot in D P t, is thinking about it relationally. Like being able to not only notice which state of mind I'm in, right? If I'm really upset with a friend and I'm noticing I'm having a lot of judgmental thoughts towards her. Starting the conversation about communicating how I'm feeling when I'm a nine outta 10 in terms of my anger.

[00:11:30] Probably not effective. Right? Yeah. But I also think it's helpful to think about what state of mind are people around me in? Right? Like, and I think that really can help guide your social skills in, in situations in college, whether it's with a professor, you know, even thinking about a professor who. Might not be very empathetic to your situation and maybe they are really rational and logical, right?

[00:11:55] Thinking about, okay, they probably hang out in reasonable mind or rational mind, right? So how I approach that person in terms of like, what's my wise minded social skill I'm gonna use might be different or. My roommates really stressed out. They just broke up with their boyfriend. They haven't slept in three nights, and I'm pissed off that she's leaving all the clothes around the room.

[00:12:16] Maybe not the best time at like 10:00 PM while she's like listening to sad music. I. To approach her about that problem, right? Because she's likely is an emotion minded state. So I think thinking about the states of mind from a relational perspective can be really helpful to both help you act in the most effective way within your relationships, but also take into account that.

[00:12:41] Everyone is kind of oscillating and moving between these different states of mind and to really think that like sometimes the timing of conversations or approaching someone, knowing what state of mind they're in might change your course in terms of your communication style.

[00:12:57] Sadie: I love what you mentioned with the professor and my mind goes to like a grade where your professor's like, well, an 89.8 is a b plus.

[00:13:05] And you're like, but you don't understand emotionally this could like derail my entire life. What if I don't get into grad school because of this? What if I get rejected on a job because my GPA is lower. So you're like really emotional, stressed out, right? Not sure how this is going to impact your whole life.

[00:13:21] And your professor is like, well, just logically, an 89.8 is not a 90.0. And so it's really appealing to that emotional side, giving them context to what you're thinking. And then also you can appeal to the logical side of things like. You know, I completed all this extra credit, or I went back and revised this essay, or I went back and looked through my homework and I think I could make up a point here.

[00:13:43] And knowing that they'll be receptive to that logical ask can be effective because that's the, the state of mind that they're kind of living in in that moment.

[00:13:52] Sarah: I think there's a few ways that emotion might can play a role, especially with professors. One is perhaps being a bit more impulsive or begging and saying, oh, I want this for this reason, and it doesn't help them really hear your overall message.

[00:14:04] Yeah. And then a lot of times there's fear. Oh, I don't need to ask. He'll never say yes. Mm-hmm. Or a lot of go into that. Yeah. And so how can you use. Both that bigger goal, like, okay, so yes, I'm afraid perhaps to approach this professor and ask for more extra credit or remind him that I did it.

[00:14:21] Mm-hmm. And the next part would be, what is the bigger goal of mine or bigger value about my next steps of going to medical school and helping people or being a force of nature in the journalism world, whatever the case may be. So fear is a lot of times an emotion that we keep to, that can get us stuck,

[00:14:39] Sadie: right?

[00:14:40] Yeah. We recorded for your guys' show earlier today, and you guys asked an amazing question that I'd love to get your thoughts on as well, which is the common dialectics that college students are dealing with. And you haven't done D B T before, like you guys mentioned, you probably don't know what a dialectic is like.

[00:14:56] The only time I've heard that word outside of the context of therapy is my philosophy class like this. It's not used colloquially, no one's like, oh yeah. It's such a dialectic to like, even at Penn, no one is using this in their essays. people are not saying dialectic. And so for anyone who's never heard that before, it's this idea that two things that are seemingly opposite can be true at the same time.

[00:15:17] You guys mentioned acceptance and change. we talked about how. Two truths, like your lived experience and someone else's lived experience, especially in a crisis situation or an argument. Both of those can be valid and equally true. But what are the things that you guys are hearing from your clients and, and from your listeners as well regarding the most common dialectics that college students are dealing with?

[00:15:38] Sarah: I know Liz, I feel like it might depend on the year. Yeah, so, and we did an episode on this, actually, our first episode was on expectations versus realities of college. So when you're going in and you're a freshman and you're expecting it to be the most social time of your life, so it can be you're around more people maybe than you have been in quite some time.

[00:15:59] You live with people, you've got a dorm hall, you're eating around them. So it's the most social time of your life. Per perhaps to date, and it's the most lonely time, it's equally the most lonely time, or it could be. Then I think as you go through the years and the grades start to matter more, I might think I'm hearing them say things like, this is the most stressful time.

[00:16:21] Isn't college supposed to be fun? Oh my gosh, I am, wait a minute, so it's, it's this transitional time where you get to go and explore and do a lot of things, but that can be also overwhelming to consider all your choices. Choose a major, think about what summer internship to have.

[00:16:36] Liz: Yeah. Yeah. I would say the one balancing and this tension between academics and social, like how can I have fun and also do well in school at the same time, like attend to both of those things.

[00:16:51] I think that I see a lot of college students. Swing from paying attention to one thing they value and are like, okay, I can only be hardworking and do amazing academically and like, I'm just gonna have to sacrifice my social life, or I'm gonna prioritize my social life and just kind of accept that my academics aren't gonna be, you know, too stellar.

[00:17:16] So I do think, and I think. Probably one of the main goals in college and when I'm working with college students is how do we find a balance between those two things? And how could you recognize when your emotion mind is essentially causing you to shift to one, attend to one side, and not pay attention to, to both of them, and to reach for more of like a synthesis or a balance where you really feel.

[00:17:41] Good about yourself, that you actually are attending to your values around building your community of friends at college and also doing what you're supposed to be doing there, which is learning and being a student.

[00:17:54] Sadie: I love that. I think that's something that a lot, a lot of people struggle with is that academic social balance, and depending on what your extracurriculars are, sometimes it's like a balance of those priorities versus classes or versus social time and because it's such a different balance.

[00:18:10] Sarah: You know what I actually. I think is another potential dialectic or sort of like swing between two extremes that it's nice to be able to find that.

[00:18:20] Balance is identity. And I can give you, I hope you don't mind me giving my own example here. Yeah. But I grew up in, I had to have a really, I a big identity shift. So I grew up in the south and a place where I felt like, oh, I'm a, you know, I'm a well-educated person with not really a strong accent.

[00:18:38] And here I am and I'm gonna go to a school that. Had a, a much more wider range of people from various regions, right? So I go and the first thing notice is my Southern accent, and they're asking me, oh, do people wear shoes? Where you're from? And I was like, What actual, what hell are you talking about?

[00:18:56] And I grew up in like a really big metropolitan city. I

[00:18:59] Sadie: like, yes, we wear

[00:19:00] Sarah: shoes. You've gotta be kidding. It just went, it was just so baffling to suddenly be kinda like the bumpkin. And I think that I went way too much in the direction of, let me just get rid of that world and really just dive headlong into this new way of thinking.

[00:19:18] I remember my mom was packing up my, you know, my dorm or Yeah, yeah. My dorm. Sophomore year we get in the car and I had done, sort of, was speaking in a certain way and she goes, you've, you know, honey you've become a bitch. I got most likely to befriend a stranger and my high school yearbook and my mom's calling me.

[00:19:36] She's like, you've just become a bitch. And was like, I have become a bitch. You know? And then the next few years were me recalibrating that a little bit. So I think that identity piece. Where you have to go and your history follows you, but then you're also trying to figure out where and what you wanna take from that.

[00:19:53] Yeah, can be a head scratcher

[00:19:55] Sadie: a hundred percent. And I think that's something that so many people experience, because I think for a lot of high school, what you're defined by are your activities and the way that you spend your time because you're writing this whole application, showcasing all these things you've invested in.

[00:20:09] And for a lot of people, once you get to college, a lot of those clubs or associations or sports teams, Aren't even a thing anymore. Yeah. Like the way that you're spending your time is so drastically different. And now it's like, okay, but what is my identity? Like, who am I and how, how am I supposed to spend my day?

[00:20:25] So I think that's something that really, truly a lot of college students struggle with is that identity shift and that that dialectic of like who you used to be and who you are. Mm-hmm. And how do, how those kind of fit together. Mm-hmm. I would love to do some skills education and give listeners maybe like three or four different D B T skills that you guys are constantly preaching to clients that you are pulling from consistently in your toolbox because they're really helpful to navigate college challenges that people maybe haven't heard of before.

[00:20:55] Because like we mentioned at the beginning, you hear the basic like, oh, be aware of what your resources are, program the counseling number into your phone. Get your hours of sleep. Don't drink. 27 coffees, . So what are like your guys' top skills that you are teaching clients to have in their, their toolbox to navigate the challenges that that college is throwing at them?

[00:21:14] This week's episode is brought to you by Teen Counseling. You guys know that whenever I have therapists on the podcast, I like to mention teen counseling as a resource for you to find a therapist if you either want to find a new.

[00:21:25] Provider or you want to start your therapy journey? Teen counseling is better health branch of online therapy, but specifically for teenagers, they have over 14,000 licensed therapists within their network. And you can get support on things like depression, anxiety, relationships, trauma, transitioning to college, navigating all of the stress that can come with being in college and so much more.

[00:21:46] And the great part about it is that you don't have to deal with the long. Waiting list referrals that can happen when you are looking for a local provider are going through other route to find a therapist. So if you tried that and you were still looking for support, you can check out teen counseling.

[00:21:59] They offer talk, text and video counseling. So depending on what level of support you're looking for, they will meet you Where you are at, you will go to teen counseling.com/she persisted. Again, that is teen counseling.com/she persisted to find a therapist that fits your needs today.

[00:22:14] Liz: Sorry, you wanted me to go first? Go Queen

[00:22:18] Sarah: d b t. Okay.

[00:22:20] Liz: Sarah and I actually, I hope it's coming out there. I think we're gonna put out this week. But I think within, there's a module within D V T called emotion regulation skills. Mm-hmm. And I really think that, you know, Sarah and I have been talking a lot about this analogy of having like an emotional savings account and college really presents itself with so many stressors that are unpredicted, you know, tons of physical illnesses.

[00:22:43] I mean, all my college students are the rap flu.

[00:22:45] Sadie: You were sick for six months. Chronically Ill. Yeah. It's so

[00:22:48] Liz: bad. You know, like last minute changes and assignments and exams and, you know, roommate friendship issues. I mean, it's just like a laundry list of stressors. So within the emotion regulation skills area within D B T, I do think thinking about what are skills that can reduce your vulnerability.

[00:23:06] To intense emotions or skills that can kind of buffer against stress and those skills. Again, there's an acronym within D V T. There's a lot that, there's a lot that fall in here, but it's called abc, please. And for myself included, whenever I kind of know, notice I'm like a little bit more irritable or even like a dullness.

[00:23:28] I'm kind of like, Like this familiar walk on the treadmill of life. I'm just like not really like feeling a lot of range of my emotions. I always check in with myself and I say, Liz, like how are your ABC police skills? Yeah. And essentially I'll go through quickly what those skills are. Maybe Sarah can take the police part.

[00:23:43] But the first part is thinking about like, am I doing enough things to accumulate positive emotions in my life? And what essentially these are, are pleasant activities and it could mean anything. It could mean like buying a new scented candle and really trying to like savor and experience what that smells like.

[00:24:00] It could be making plans to get coffee. It could be going for a walk. Essentially, you're doing something. Your sole goal is to experience a positive emotion. I will, my caveat here is that. I we're humans and we're social beings. So I do think you need a little bit of a balance of activities that you do with other people as well, as well as things that you can do alone.

[00:24:22] Because a lot of us overly rely on socialization as a way to kind of accumulate positive emotions and people are busy and not always available. Yeah. the second piece I'd say is to make sure it's really diverse. Sometimes we kind of like put place fillers in our day of activities, but the potency of that experience loses its value over time.

[00:24:44] So you really wanna be trying different things, like, although it's easy to listen to a podcast or watch Netflix or paint my nails or something, if I do those things, are those always, always my pleasant activities? Over time, you're not gonna accumulate as many positive emotions out of your experience. The B part within ABC Please, is about building mastery Now as college students, I'm like, it's great you, you go to school, go to class.

[00:25:10] Yeah. Yep. You're doing something already that's making you feel good about yourself, essentially. Building mastery is like, how do I do enough things each day that give me a sense of mastery, accomplishment. But I will say this, there are other. Small things that we don't even think about that are mastery building activities.

[00:25:25] You know, I always give this my example of my clients. I hate doing laundry. I literally hate it. I hate folding it. I hate do, I just hate doing it, right? But the, when I'm done with laundry, it's completed, it's folded and it's put away. I do get a sense of accomplishment, even if that's the only thing that I did that was productive.

[00:25:43] I do feel good about my work. Yeah, it's a love work and as college students, anytime

[00:25:48] Sarah: I'm saying it, I'm like, you take a box, it feels

[00:25:50] Liz: good. Yeah. And as college students, you're like going in a basement and fighting over laundry machines. I mean,

[00:25:55] Sadie: it's an harder, I did get in a fight last year. I like washed a pair in my tennis shoes.

[00:25:59] I did because it was like soaking rain. We wash our tennis shoes at home like every couple of months. You throw them in the washer, you dry them, and this girl was like, you can't wash shoes here. I was like, what?

[00:26:13] Liz: Like the laundry

[00:26:14] Sadie: police, literally, she was like, you can't do that. And I was like, yes I can.

[00:26:20] And she was like, I need to do my clothes. And I was like, I'm sorry, you're just gonna have to wait. My shoes are halfway through their wash cycle I am allowed to do this. So we did some conflict resolution, but like laundry is an emotionally exhaustive task

[00:26:33] Liz: at college. It a hundred percent is, and it's a stressor.

[00:26:37] The amount of college students, they'll be like, Liz, I have no clothes to wear. And I'm like, okay, well, you have to develop some better habits around doing it. But anyway, that's a whole other skill. So I'll do the C and then Sarah, I'd love for you to do please, but C in a b, ABC please. The C is about coping ahead for emotional situations and.

[00:26:56] Essentially the essence of this skill is that when we know that something difficult emotionally is gonna happen, why don't we develop a blueprint and a skeleton of exactly what we anticipate is gonna happen and how we're gonna cope effectively? Most of my clients, when I say You know what's gonna happen?

[00:27:13] They predict like the worst case scenario, right? And they basically say they're gonna be like flailing and drowning in their sorrow. And I'm like, okay, that's one option, but there's also this option that it could be really difficult and you might handle it. Wow. And that really pulls from some principles of sports psychology, you know, like the best N B A player not thinking about missing a foul shot in like a really tight game.

[00:27:36] They're thinking about. It's gonna be really challenging. A lot of pressure, right. And they're still gonna ace it. They're still gonna get the shot. That's essentially what the COPA head skill is like. How can I anticipate something that's gonna be really challenging? And then how can I rehearse over and over and over again how I'm gonna cope?

[00:27:50] Well, so the ABC accumulating positive emotions, building mastery, and coping ahead, I think are really useful skills for college students. And then the please skills, which again, I cannot, I'd probably talk about these every session with my college students. They're so important. Sorry, take it away.

[00:28:07] Sarah: Well, I was gonna just quickly add that I think coping ahead is one of those things where it's so easy to not cope ahead if things are flying pretty easily for you.

[00:28:16] And it just is hard to say, well, I'm not upset right now, so why do I have to think about something that's hard? I just wanna procrastinate. I see a lot of people procrastinating around Coping ahead. Yeah. But the people who are able to do it, who really say, okay, I've got. That, speech coming up that I need to do, the people who've practiced it, the, when you're doing that speech just, yeah, you're so happy.

[00:28:35] You're so happy that that past self got you to this point where you can do it without having that panic attack or that moment. Yeah. All right. So you left me with Please, which is hilarious cuz one of the sort of funny jokes I think D B T therapists say as some of these pneumonics are, Hilarious.

[00:28:49] They're really, oh, they're not even,

[00:28:51] Sadie: they don't even fit.

[00:28:53] Sarah: So I'm like, ok, how do I please?

[00:28:55] Sadie: So physical, I think they just happened. End is the P Like what? I know. I

[00:29:00] Sarah: know. I just didn't, I was like, is it, I think she just didn't wanna have the pneumonic be seeps and so she had to do please, because seeps doesn't sound as good.

[00:29:07] So, yeah. So the. So the P is physical treating, physical treat, physical illness, P, and there's an L in there. So that's the pl. So treating physical illness, paying attention to yourself, you know, and I think in college, yes, treating physical illness. When you have an illness, , you know, allow yourself to have a day off if you have a cold go.

[00:29:28] To see the doctors that are there. I don't know how many times I went and I was like, oh, I have mono. No wonder I'm exhausted. Yeah. But I think for college too, I should mention, you don't wanna be like a. You know, a frog in a boiling pot of water where it seeps up on you. So paying attention you know, the other parts of the plea skill or how do you kind of pay attention so you don't get that physical burnout.

[00:29:48] So the E is eating balanced, eating, making sure that you're having some of that nutrition in you're making sure you're hydrated, have all the things that you need to do to make your body run. And get sort of the, the gas going. Avoid mind altering substances. Let's come back to that one. Okay? But yes, avoid alcohol, caffeine, smoking, medications that other people are supposed to have.

[00:30:13] Study drugs, those kinds of things. Illegal drugs. We all know that. Those, we all know the, the stuff. I'm not gonna go over that there. S getting enough sleep. Again, let's come back to that one and regular exercise. So how do you maybe walk to class instead of taking bus? Are you able to sort of fit in?

[00:30:30] Oh my God, people

[00:30:30] Sadie: have buses to get to class. We do not have

[00:30:32] that.

[00:30:33] Sarah: Well, I had a, I don't know. I feel like it depends on the college, right? You're sort of like shuttles.

[00:30:37] Liz: Yeah. Some have shuttles, different campus campuses.

[00:30:40] Sadie: You never know. Maybe I need to transfer cuz we have to walk everywhere. It's all sad.

[00:30:44] It's a small campus, but we do not have shuttles. Let me tell you.

[00:30:49] Sarah: But at least you're getting your E and

[00:30:51] Liz: Exactly,

[00:30:52] Sarah: yes. But I think that the, you know, where you have to be realistic is, I don't think there are many. I mean, if, if many college students are not drinking, you know, overly so not taking less at drugs, I do know that for a lot of it, it is a time to, and really normal to experiment, figure out sort of the, the things that work for you, the things that don't.

[00:31:15] So, Liz, you can come in in here as well, but it's not like when I'm working with somebody, I'm like, oh no, you drink. Let's get back to no avoiding those substances. But it is about paying attention to, are you able to, when you're not drinking, make sure you're sort of setting yourself up to have a big cushion.

[00:31:33] You know, make sure you're drinking water, make sure you're getting some nutrients in, and also pay attention to what alcohol makes you feel like. Pay attention to what these drugs make you feel like if you're smoking every single day and you're not getting to class, Pay attention to that. That's part of, that's part of pot, that's part of the things that are gonna make you feel a motivated or have a lack of motivation.

[00:31:52] So I do think some people are like, ah, it's just that time to be crazy and, and there can be some balance there. So And in terms of sleep, you know, we are actually doing, so we talk to so many people. I'm like, we have an episode for that. We had an episode for that. We got an episode for that. But we actually love it.

[00:32:09] Do have an episode coming up on sleep, because we hear it all the time with the students. Not just our clients, but students who are interacting with some of our student ambassadors. We will say like, it's. What is it, Liz? It's like sleep friends and studying and you can only have two. We hear this all the time and obviously you need to figure out a way to have, yeah, all three within reason, so it, we know that can be tough in college, but it should be be ignored.

[00:32:35] Liz: Yeah, I think any of the ones that you just mentioned, Sarah, I think the plea skills, I almost feel like my college shows are like, Oh, when I come home from winter break, I'm gonna like sleep more. I'm gonna exercise, I'm gonna eat really well.

[00:32:47] Sadie: Your family does not appreciate when you sleep all the time, they get annoyed.

[00:32:50] Right?

[00:32:52] Liz: You, I'll go to all my doctor's appointments. It's like they, they're like just don't pay attention to it or are really, they accept that they can't problem solve how to attend to some of these things. And I really think that, Sarah, something you said, I think it's important is that. Really pay attention.

[00:33:12] These are called emotion regulation skills because they really have a direct impact on our mood. So if your relationship with substances is working for you and you're able to attend to like all your values and priorities, okay? If you're sleeping schedule and your hygiene seems to be working for you, okay?

[00:33:30] But for a lot of people, Not even paying attention to it and letting it be really dysregulated. Like we talked to a college student and he's like, I pull like three outta seven. All nighters a week and I, I, sorry, nose, like I did not, I almost had a heart attack. I was like, yeah,

[00:33:45] Sarah: wait. I wanted to rush in and be like, wait, stop the podcast.

[00:33:48] And two little mother hens coming and be like, let's

[00:33:51] get

[00:33:51] Liz: you to bed. I know.

[00:33:52] Sadie: Yeah, no, you like pull up that study where like those people were like, Covering all the walls of the room and like developing symptoms of schizophrenia. Really funny. Are you hearing voices? Yeah. Are they in the room with you now?

[00:34:05] Like, oh my gosh. And

[00:34:07] Sarah: maybe a balanced way of thinking about that when I'm working with students is if they come in and they say, I am gonna drop out of college, or I am just completely giving up on this friendship, you know, it's not like I'm gonna say, okay, never drink again. You know, stop eating any junk food. But I am gonna say, okay, before we even go mm-hmm. Into that place, let's check on the stuff that kind of keeps the fibers of our emotion mind intact. You know? Yeah. How's your sleep? How's your eating? All right? If those are really poor, can we get those in check first before you make this big decision.

[00:34:39] Can we just have a good night's sleep, hydrate yourself, and then call me tomorrow and let's. Set up a time to just check in so that

[00:34:45] Sadie: you're not in emotion mind and you're making the decision from your wise mind because all connects.

[00:34:49] Sarah: Exactly. I'm like, we can waste the 45 minutes and the dollars to solve this problem, but I, I'm gonna guess if you eat and sleep, yeah.

[00:34:57] You're gonna not feel the same way tomorrow.

[00:34:59] Sadie: Yeah. It's also really interesting what you mentioned Liz, about problem solving. And it totally ties into what Sarah was saying about substance use is like if you have two of those things, whether it's friends, sleep and studying and what falls, the wayside of sleep and your problem solving is like caffeine.

[00:35:12] That's a big thing you I know student struggle with. Yeah. And you don't necessarily think of it as like a mood altering substance, but caffeine dependence and. Drinking tons of coffee and how that can impact your sleep schedule and your emotional regulation and even your anxiety. It can have a really big impact.

[00:35:27] So it really does just go back to that being mindful of how these things are impacting you. And bringing it back to the basis because it has such a huge impact. Like that was one of the biggest things I focused on at McClain, was just getting my sleep schedule back on track. Mm-hmm. Because I had so much insomnia.

[00:35:43] I was napping all the time. I was like lethargic from being depressed. It was a disaster. And within literally like. Two days of having a consistent sleep schedule. I was like, oh my God, I'm waking up in the morning and I'm not immediately depressed. It was so insanely foreign and shocking and amazing to, to experience that.

[00:36:01] And I think we've really underestimate what a big impact those habits have on our life and how easy it is for them to, to fall off the wayside in college because it, you're for the first time, completely in charge of managing those things yourself. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I

[00:36:16] Liz: also think it's reinforced in college. Oh yeah.

[00:36:18] I think is you know, kind of like a downside, I think, and almost like expected, you know, even high schoolers are thinking they're gonna be pulling all nighters and like ordering dominoes at 4:00 AM I think there's, there's this kind of like pre-rehearsed expectation that, you know, you're not gonna be able to have a good sleep schedule or exercise or eat well in college.

[00:36:40] And so I think it's important to be mindful of those predictions that we make, cuz I do think they inhibit our ability to problem solve. And yeah, I'm happy Sadie, that you're attending to your plea skills and you talk about that on your podcast so that it's a constant journey.

[00:36:53] Sadie: We're, we're always trying

[00:36:55] My friends, whenever I make new friends, one of the first things they realize is like, if I don't respond to a text, you're like, she's sleeping, she's snapping. They just learn that very, very quickly. I'm like, I'm sorry.

[00:37:07] I'm tired. I have a lot going on. I'm always tired. They're like, okay. It's just kind of how this works. But no, please skills. Always trying to improve them.

[00:37:16] Sarah: Well, and it's also actually, that ties in really beautifully to what I was thinking about. When you're asking us what are some of the skills that you can teach, and I think in college as well, I'm constantly describing the give fast skill.

[00:37:27] Okay, so what does that mean, right? Yet it's another mnemonic, but in short it's a relationship skill that you can have or you try to pay attention to. The balance between how much you're giving to a friendship and how much you're holding fast to who you are. And I think that college has a ton of group think, you know, you could even think about and, and that's, Liz, to your point, kind of reinforced or assumed that it should be that way.

[00:37:49] Mm-hmm. Sorority life. Your team on a certain sports team, you know that there's friends or the

[00:37:55] Sadie: dining hall, like there's, unless you're doing something different, you're eating all your meals with people. Like it's very much structured that

[00:38:01] Sarah: way. And there's so many hidden rules, right, that you kind of need to follow.

[00:38:06] So, One of the things that can be really helpful is to pay attention to, just in general, how much are you giving to people and also how much are you able to hold true to what you need? And that's so, you know, Liz, you're gonna be able to just like bounce these off really quickly. But there are a lot of times where people feel like, okay, I gotta stand up for myself when I'm talking to this person.

[00:38:29] Or they're, you know, I'm in this friendship and I'm just gonna tell 'em what I think. It's like, okay, so. A, you can have a gentle manner, right? You can act interested in what the other person's saying. You can validate what they're going through. And what we mean by that is, can you understand the story of how they got there?

[00:38:45] Doesn't mean you have to agree, but there's a probably a reason that they got to where they're at at this point in life too. And what Liz always forget the E, come on, save me here. An easy manner.

[00:38:54] Liz: I like the silence. An easy manner. You know, use humor like your body language, right? You know, you're not like Exactly.

[00:39:00] as a board and like Really Yeah. Aggressive with your non-verbals.

[00:39:04] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So those are some things I'm often trying to, especially I think people I'm talking to that are advocates, they're passionate. Mm-hmm. And you wanna say Absolutely should do all those things. And there are ways to get people to hear you and you wanna have a bit of a balance.

[00:39:18] And then you have people who don't, you know, I hate to say the term doormat, but they really are letting people cross boundaries that they shouldn't cross or they're not going, like we said earlier, to that professor and asking for a different grade and just saying yes to everything. And so the fast skill would be much more about holding true to who you are as a person.

[00:39:39] So Liz, I don't know if you find that that's a big one for you. Yeah, but

[00:39:43] Liz: I think a lot of people think they have to be either or. And I think yes. If I, Was that like a store or something and they told me something was $20 and then I go to ring it up and they're like, it's actually 95.

[00:39:54] Maybe I'm gonna use just fast. Cuz that person who works there, I don't need to maintain a positive relationship with. But when we're thinking about college and whether it's a professor, a friend, or a family member, whoever it is we probably need to pay attention to both of those skills. And I think people mistaken.

[00:40:13] Maintaining our self-respect as being aggressive or abrasive in terms of assertiveness skills. And I love the idea of like weaving at the bottom or on top of like the gift skill. There's a way for you, here's a dialectic to be gentle and assertive at the same time. And there's a way to maintain a relationship with someone and still draw a line in the sand.

[00:40:34] And it's all about how you do that, right? Can you validate their perspective? Can you be gentle with your language, not attack them, et

[00:40:41] Sadie: cetera. Yeah. I think another huge thing with FAST can be setting more boundaries and like almost protecting your time with yourself. I feel like the more conversations I have with college students, especially in the context of the podcast, it's like kind of odd or not normal when you're spending more time with yourself, whether it's like your, your night routine, whether it is weekends, whether you're getting work done, whether it's a meal.

[00:41:05] And yet I really like my time by myself. I feel like that's what allows me to show up in my relationships and not feel burnt out and still pursue all these things because it's almost just like restorative time. And it also, I feel like really does set you up for success for when you graduate and you're no longer living with all your friends and you're no longer in class every day needing at the dining hall all the time.

[00:41:24] And you don't kind of have that shock of like, Oh my God, what do I do without people? Because you're like, oh my gosh, I've done this before. Like I've eaten meals by myself, I've cooked for myself. I go on walks by myself. I can get work done without four other people being in the room with me. Mm-hmm. And I can be really effective to set those boundaries.

[00:41:40] And again, that's, you're also practicing that boundary and you're using that fast scale in addition to also getting better at being independent.

[00:41:47] Sarah: yeah. I think that it can come up a lot when. People are in friendships and you're trying to figure out, and I think college is also a time when. Friend groups can ebb and flow.

[00:41:57] Yeah. Or shift altogether. And that's really normal. And so the give and fast skill ultimately is about how to maintain the relationships that you want and set boundaries in or end the relationships that are now longer working for you. Mm-hmm. But there are times when I'm talking to some people and they'll kind of throw the baby out with the bath water.

[00:42:14] You know, they'll say like, this friend again sort of hurt my feelings this one time, or. Is not somebody who can do X, Y, and Z for me. And that's when I said like, let's pull out a little bit, zoom out and let's think about friendship and that no one friend is going to be all things to you. And that I have a friend who I can trust, like with my life literally, but she's not gonna pay me back the $10 she owes me.

[00:42:36] I know for a fact that she's not, you know, but I can really trust her in this one category and I can sort of adapt or move around or accept that she's. Fallible, just like I am in another category. Yeah. I realized we didn't say what fast was, so I can just throw quickly. Yeah. Spot out so fast is essentially shorthand for being fair to yourself and standing up for what your values are.

[00:42:57] So it stands for being fair, ah, a being apology free, not having to be overly apologetic for what you're asking for, sticking to your values, what is important to you, and being truthful, sort of noticing what the facts are that you need to stick to so that you're not getting swayed or the conversation doesn't get.

[00:43:14] Keep on getting pulled to a different topic, but one of the reasons I think D B T does have a lot of these things is cuz it's shorthand and quick for when you're in the moment. Mm-hmm. You're not gonna go, oh, I need to be fair, I need to,

[00:43:27] Sadie: like, oh, I apologizing or am I not apologizing?

[00:43:29] Yeah. It's like a lot to remember. Yeah. Right,

[00:43:32] Sarah: right. So it's, it's something where it can be shorthand to give you a prompt in the moment. Oh, stand up for

[00:43:39] Sadie: myself. Mm-hmm. I love that. The last question I wanted to ask before we wrap up is for people that are, have just gone to college, they've made this huge Transition. I've heard a lot of students, especially at Penn Express this sentiment regarding freshman year. Almost like reflecting back on it that it was just a really hard period of time. They've never experienced anything so challenging. They're kind of at a loss, like, what do I do? This is really, really difficult.

[00:44:05] Their mental health is struggling. Things are really different. What are your guys' advice? Or even just words of support for someone who's gotten to college. They've made this huge transition. It's not going as well as they thought it was going to, and they, they're not really sure what to do. They're just like, this is.

[00:44:21] Really, really hard and I, I don't know what to do or how to move forward because while of course I never would promote, like struggling with your mental health in high school because it was not a fun experience, I felt really lucky going into college. Cause I had all these skills in my toolbox. I'd used them before I had practiced them, and I think.

[00:44:40] For a lot of people, they've been lucky that they haven't struggled in high school. And so then they get to college. And when things do get tough, it's like, what do I do? Like how do I cope with this and ask for help and all those things. So what is your advice to someone who, for their first time in their life is really struggling with their mental health and keeping up with everything?

[00:44:56] Well, let's,

[00:44:57] Sarah: maybe I could start by saying kind of a. Precursor to that. There's something about when you're a therapist or people know that you work with college students or what have you, you get everyone thinks, oh, you just talked to your clients, and that's a certain kind of population. No, we talk to all sorts of people, nephews, friends of our friends', kids, people that I know in my town coming up to me all the time.

[00:45:21] It's the same thing over and over again, and especially even when, since we started our podcast, you'd be amazed how many people have been like, oh my gosh, my child who's a freshman is having such a hard time. It is the most consistent thing that we hear. So the first. Piece. It's not necessarily advice, but it's about saying this is what almost everyone is going through, and it's the time of your life when you're probably the most afraid to express it.

[00:45:50] Yeah. So there's a huge discrepancy there. So you are not alone. I have a niece who is just the most, well, you know, thriving person in the world and asked her at some point, what would you say to people who, yeah, maybe aren't. Struggling with mental health or have a hard time, her doing fine. What, what's the thing that you'd want me to know as I'm working with these people?

[00:46:13] And she said freshman year was the loneliest time for me and every one of my friends. Yeah. This was not even someone who would've ostensibly said she struggled with mental health. So that's, that's the first thing I would say is, yeah. Yes. Everybody is, you're not alone.

[00:46:29] Sadie: There's this really interesting thing at Penn where people call it Penn face, where especially as you first get to college, everyone puts on this like mask of being fine and being okay and balancing everything and not being stressed and going out and having a great time.

[00:46:42] And yet everyone is really, really struggling and it's like universally known that everyone is putting on this front, but having a tough time. And so just completely to echo what you're saying that. Lots of people find the transition very challenging. Lots of people feel lonely and not sure what to do, and even if they do seem like they have it all figured out, a lot of the time they don't and they don't necessarily feel as great as they're projecting to people. Mm-hmm.

[00:47:07] Sarah: I would love to know what that's called at every college campus in face. Right. I wonder what it is everywhere else. Yes.

[00:47:13] Liz: Okay, so one this comes from, you know, a lot of D V T principles come from like Buddhist or Eastern kind of philosophies.

[00:47:20] So I, I don't know who to like credit this for, but there's this assumption and saying in D V T that the only constant is change. And I really think that in difficult moments when you're adjusting to college, it feels like it's always gonna be that way, right? Yeah. If you really hold that truth to be true, It will change eventually.

[00:47:41] Even if you do nothing, something's going to change, right? And so, you know, in five years from now, I guarantee things will be different than it feels like in this moment. Right? So I think that that concept can kind of help you weather some difficult storms. So I just say that because I really think like sometimes we're so stuck in the mud and like our viewpoint is so narrow that we can't kind of zoom out a little bit and kind of have some hope that things are constantly changing.

[00:48:11] So that's one piece of advice or mantra that I, I even myself tried to keep in mind. And then the second piece that, and this comes back to coping ahead. I am amazed at how people do not research or have any understanding of what their mental health support will look like at the university that they choose.

[00:48:32] And it really varies. I see counseling centers that. Are awful. I mean, it's a judgment, but you know, they don't return phone calls. They basically like will see you at the end of the semester. You get two sessions a semester. You live in the middle of nowhere. Your university is like in the middle of nowhere.

[00:48:50] There aren't a lot of mental health providers around. So even if you've never had mental health difficulties in the same way that I do think some people are mindful of doctors that are in the area, your access to health. Care providers in the medical sense, nobody really does their due diligence to think about like, okay, like, well, what if it's difficult?

[00:49:10] What are my resources? You know, my limit as a therapist when my clients go to college is you have to have an appointment at the college counseling center. Things are always changing. I don't care if you end up. Staying there. I don't care if they end up willing to see you or not. We just have to know what your options are.

[00:49:26] Yeah. And that needs to happen within the first month of you going to school, so. So my advice is kind of, When you decide on where you're going to school, do some research. You know, you don't wanna wait until it's a five alarm fire and you're in a crisis and you have no access to support, you know, really understand.

[00:49:44] What does your university provide? Ask upperclassmen, you know, ask around, is this a good resource, is it not? What's available kind of in the area? And luckily there's been less. Barriers to treatment. You know, now there are a lot of states, depending on where you go to school, that you can access telehealth providers across state lines.

[00:50:03] So like I said, in the same way that you'd know the nearest hospital, probably your parents would, and like what doctor to see within the community. If you got ill, I think you should do as much research as possible what your mental health resources are. Even if you Anticipate, you know that things will be okay cuz there's a chance in your four years you're likely gonna need some help.

[00:50:22] Sadie: Or maybe a friend will ask for it. Yeah. At the very least just be like, I want to know in case one of my friends needs support. Love. You can

[00:50:28] Sarah: have the answer, love. Right. I, there's actually a resource that's growing called the Shrink Space. I'm not sure if you've heard of it. Mm-hmm. Where it's essentially a company that's trying to link therapists who are near college campuses.

[00:50:41] Just because college counseling centers do get, sometimes, even if they're wonderful, they can be overwhelmed. Yeah. So that's a resource I think can be really helpful if you don't feel as comfortable maybe going to your own clinic for some reason. I also think I try to get this in the minds of anyone I see is this.

[00:50:57] Happiness myth, the myth of happiness. And if I'm not happy, then something's wrong with me. Something's, yeah, I'm not being fulfilled in some way, or everyone around me is happy. So there's a lot of myths around happiness. But the first one is that that's the state we should be ascribing to. But the truth is that people who feel ultimately fulfilled have every emotion throughout the day.

[00:51:17] We all do, and some of us stay in some longer than others, but happiness is a. An emotion that is fleeting and it comes and it goes and can feel like excitement to some, and contentment to others and the others that people are walking around happy all the time. Most people, if you kind of walked and interviewed a hundred people and asked them right in that moment, how are you feeling?

[00:51:36] Most people are feeling kind of neutral, you know? They're not necessarily having the time of their life, they're just putting one foot in front of the other, and so that's something I tend to tell people as well. It's okay if you're not happy right away. There are other. Emotions that you can experience, curiosity, excitement, like the, are, those can be ones to look for too.

[00:51:59] That college is a really novel experience and so happiness tends to come when yes, excitement is going on. But contentment, which is another side of that, tends to come when you've got routine in your own space and you don't have that yet. So it's okay if you don't feel happy when you're there.

[00:52:15] Sadie: A hundred percent.

[00:52:17] Well, if people want to continue to follow along with you guys and listen to your show, where can they do that?

[00:52:22] Sarah: Oh, well, at college is fine. podcast.com. The full name for the show is College is Fine, everything's fine. Which of course is little tongue in cheek. I love

[00:52:34] Sadie: it. I love it. Awesome. Listen

[00:52:36] Sarah: to it wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:52:37] Sadie: Perfect. It'll be in the show notes. Thank you Liz and Sarah for coming on. She persisted. This was such a fun conversation. We should a hundred percent do a part two. At some point we should. This convers Love You is gonna be, yeah. So helpful for so many students and I can't wait to share it. Great. Thanks Sadie.

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