171. Relationship Advice That Will Change Your Life: Improve Your Interpersonal Effectiveness This Holiday Season

Dec 9

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In this week's solo episode, I share advice on how you can improve and maintain your interpersonal relationships this holiday season! I discuss what interpersonal effectiveness looks like in DBT, the physical and mental health benefits of positive social relationships, setting goals for your relationships, how to achieve your relationship goals and avoid personal obstacles in your relationships, and four skills you need to know to better your relationships. If you're looking for effective ways to resolve conflict, strengthen your bond, and advocate for yourself in your relationships, then this episode is a MUST-LISTEN!

Mentioned In The Episode…

+ DBT Skills Manual for Adolescents

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About She Persisted (formerly Nevertheless, She Persisted)

After a year and a half of intensive treatment for severe depression and anxiety, 18-year-old Sadie recounts her journey by interviewing family members, professionals, and fellow teens to offer self-improvement tips, DBT education, and personal experiences. She Persisted is the reminder that someone else has been there too and your inspiration to live your life worth living.

a note: this is an automated transcription so please ignore any accidental misspellings!

Sadie: Welcome to She Persisted. I'm your host, Sadie Sutton, a 19 year old from the Bay Area studying psychology at the University of Penn. She Persisted is the Teen Mental Health Podcast made for teenagers by a teen. In each episode, I'll bring you authentic, accessible, and relatable conversations about every aspect of mental wellness.

You can expect evidence-based, teen approved resources, coping skills, including lots of D B T insights and education in. Each piece of content you consume, she persisted, Offers you a safe space to feel validated and understood in your struggle, while encouraging you to take ownership of your journey and build your life worth living.

So let's dive in this week on She persisted.

moving into the skill that you can use to improve your self respect, especially if you feel invalidated or not seen in relationships, this is a skill that's really, really helpful. So if you are someone who leaves conversations being like, I compromise so much, and I didn't agree with how that turned out, and I should have said X, Y, and Z, people pleasers, imposter syndrome. Is that even, like, a phrase? This one is for you.

Hello, hello, and welcome back to She Persisted. This is the fourth time I've started this episode. We are off to a rough start. But I want this to be a resource for you this holiday season to navigate your relationships and be more effective from an interpersonal perspective. So I want to dive right into it.

give this going on a tangent. I was giving this whole anecdote about boundaries. But I want this to be your resource and your toolkit to go into the holiday season when you're spending more time with your family, when you're seeing friends you haven't seen in a while, when you don't have all these distractors in your life, whether it's like practice or work or school or classes to go to, when you're just kind of sitting with those feelings and spending a lot of time in these relationships.

I'm hoping these skills will be helpful to navigate that. So in DBT, and if this is your first episode you've ever listened to if you've persisted, dialectical behavioral therapy. It is a type of therapy that was developed for borderline personality disorder and has now been adapted for like depression, anxiety, and teens and adults and like all these different things.

But the core of DBT that I talk about on the podcast is the skills that they teach you. And there are many modules of DBT, emotion regulation, distress tolerance, interpersonal effectiveness, and mindfulness. And if you're a teen, you're also doing walking the middle path. But all of that to say there's these different areas of life that you learn skills in so that you can build your life worth living.

And a really important pillar there is your relationships. And that is interpersonal effectiveness. And the way that DBT addresses those relationships is interpersonal effectiveness. And if you are listening to this and you're like, yeah, my relationships are fine, like I just, my mental health is struggling because of the way I talk to myself or the way I cope with things, but , it's not my relationships that are the problem.

It's me. Or. I don't need healthy relationships. Like, I'm just handling this myself. It's okay. One thing I learned in my positive psychology class this semester, which was really interesting, is they studied the quote unquote very happy people. So the people that consistently scored above the statistical average for happiness.

The average I want to say is like a 7. 8, 7. 9, somewhere around a 7. That's the average human happiness rating. the people that scored above that really consistently, they looked at their relationships, they looked at how they were spending their time, they looked at how they coped with things, they looked at what emotions they were experiencing, and they found that the only thing that was absolutely crucial and necessary for happiness at that scale was relationships.

So they didn't have to be working out more. They didn't have to have a certain career, but they did have to have relationships. And these very happy people spent on average a lot more time in the social interaction and had a lot closer relationships than people that were either averagely happy or below average happiness.

So, unfortunately, the data shows that we have to have relationships, and we have to have healthy relationships, and we have to be willing to spend time in those relationships. And if the relationships aren't happy or fulfilling or enjoyable, you don't want to spend time with them, and it's probably also hurting your mental health to spend time with them.

So hopefully, these skills will help you improve that and make them more enjoyable to be in, And then you get to reap all the benefits that relationships have to offer.

And because I just had a positive psychology exam today, and one of the things that we were studying and reviewing was relationships, you guys get some extra facts today. Normally I wouldn't include these, but they're front of mind, so you get to hear these fun facts. So basically, There was a really interesting study done on Danish twins, and they ran the study for 75 years.

It was a longitudinal study, and they found that positive social ties, whether that was a spouse, maybe it was a friend, maybe it was a twin, sibling, etc., were a very, very, very major factor in longevity. And it wasn't just a factor in longevity for people across the board. It was especially true for women.

So women with positive social ties. There are also a lot of other benefits of these kind of has a lot of positive health outcomes that it's correlated with, whether it's greater resistance to disease, lower rates of coronary heart disease, faster recovery from heart disease and heart surgery, lower morality.

a confidant, and someone that you trust and talk to and go to when you need support, was correlated with better overall health, lower risky and self destructive behavior, reduced rates of cardiovascular impairment, high blood pressure, and asthma, greater psychological resiliency, and less vulnerability to depression.

And, one of my favorite things that I read in this,

is that pets also have health benefits. So if you have a pet and that is a positive social relationship, you are going to B, more likely to have lower blood pressure. And increase longevity. So basically the TLDR in relationships from a psychology perspective is that they're one of the strongest and most consistent psychological correlates of health and medical literature.

So it's not just that they make us feel better and they have a positive impact on our mental health. From a physical health perspective, they are profoundly impactful. So now that you got my little study guide for positive psych, we are going to talk about DBT's perspective on relationships. when we approach an interpersonal situation, we probably have a goal.

And this is what I love about DBT is everything is so concrete. You have options, you get really clear, and then once you have a goal, you can work backwards and figure out how to make that happen. So DBT has given us three different goals that you might have. When you are going into an interpersonal interaction, one is that you want to get an objective met, two, you want to keep or improve the relationship, or three, you want to keep or improve your self respect.

So if your goal is getting your objective met, You might be obtaining legitimate rights. You might be getting another person to do something that you want them to do. Maybe you are saying no or setting a boundary. Maybe you're resolving conflict. Maybe you're getting your opinion validated and getting someone to take you seriously.

So like with this, maybe you're asking a parent for a privilege. Maybe you're asking for an extension on test. All of those are examples of when you would be getting your objective met.

So if that is your goal, you want to ask yourself two questions. One is what specific results or changes do I want from this interaction?

And two, what do I have to do to get the results? What will work and what will be effective? So we're going to get into that a lot, and we're going to give you specific goals to get your objective met. But again, we're at 30, 000 feet right now with just general goals and clarifying what those are. So.

If your goal is relationship effectiveness, so keeping or improving the relationship, that means acting in a way that the other person keeps liking and respecting you, balancing your immediate goals with the good of the long term relationship, and maintaining the relationships that matter to you. So if that is the bucket you are falling into, you want to ask yourself two questions.

One, how do I want the other person to feel about me after the interaction is over, whether or not I get the results or change that I want? Because again, if that's your goal, you kind of let go of getting that objective met. And two, what do I have to do to get or keep this relationship?

And then, if your goal is self respect, that means you are respecting your own values and beliefs, you are acting in a way that makes you feel moral, acting in a way that makes you feel capable and effective, and the questions to ask yourself is how do I want to feel about myself after the interaction is over, whether or not you get the results or changes you want, and what do I have to do to feel that way about myself?

What will work and what will be effective?

So, we know what our goals are. Now, let's talk about what gets in the way of meeting those goals. The first thing that might get in the way is that you don't have the interpersonal skills you need. So, hopefully, this episode will help remedy that, but if you don't know how to ask for something, if you don't know how to set a boundary, if you don't know how to validate someone and help them feel seen and heard, you're not going to be able to meet your goals of either having something change in the relationship or having someone see you more positively.

Second, you don't know what you want. You have the skills, but you can't decide what you want from the other person. You can't figure out how to balance your needs versus the other person's needs. So maybe you're asking too much or you're not asking for anything at all, or maybe you're saying no to everything versus giving into everything.

So again, if we're not clear on those initial objectives, we can't balance all at the same time. So we have to decide what we want from that interaction to be able to get the result that we want. Third, your emotions are getting in the way. So you have the skills, but your emotions, whether it's anger, pride, contempt, fear, shame, guilt, or another emotion, control what you do.

Fourth, you forget your long term goals for short term goals. So you put your immediate urges and wants ahead of your long term goals, and the future vanishes from your mind. So maybe in the short term, you want to say something rude and like, talk back and be like, You're wrong! You don't know what you're talking about!

Why did you do this? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. In the long term, that hurts the relationship. Maybe long term you want the other person to respect you more, you want to have a more balanced relationship, right? I think a good example of this is with parents, if your long term goal is to get them to say yes to something, and the first conversation you have about that thing goes really terribly, so there's that short term urge to talk back and say what you want to say because you're angry, but then long term you're not able to get that objective met and get them to say yes to that thing because it damages the relationship and they're like, that was so rude. Go to your room. No, you can't do that thing.

Fifth, other people are getting in your way. So you have the skills, but people get in your way. They are more powerful than you, they may be threatened or may not like you if you get what you want, and other people may not know what you want unless you sacrifice your self respect at least a little. And lastly, your thoughts and beliefs are getting in the way.

So, worrying about the negative consequences. If you ask for what you want or say no to someone's request, get in the way of acting effectively. This is like where people pleasing comes out for sure. And believing that you don't deserve what you want is getting in the way. So, imposter syndrome or believing that others don't deserve what they want make you ineffective. So if someone asks you something and you just like don't think they deserve it, so then you're rude or saying no, etc. So, now that we've talked about clarifying your goals in relationship settings and what gets in the way of meeting those goals, we're going to address one of those potential factors, which is your skills. So we're going to learn four skills today.

We're going to learn a skill for getting your objective met.

Maintaining and improving our self respect, maintaining and improving the relationship, and then a DBT adjacent skill that is also helpful in, like, maintaining and improving relationships. So, the first skill is called DEAR MAN. It is an acronym that stands for Describe, Express, Assert, Reinforce, Stay Mindful, Appear Confident, and Negotiate.

So this is the skill that you use when you want to get an objective met. And I love this skill. My parents love this skill. Anytime I ask anything ever, they're like, can you do Dearman? Was that a dear man? Please, can you do dear man? They love it because it makes things so effective. It makes things so straightforward.

It allows you to be really intentional with what your ask is and what you want out of the situation. And it just feels good on the receiving end as well. I definitely recommend using this with teachers. Maybe it's a boss. Maybe it's a professional email you're sending. If you structure. your request in this way.

It's just so, so, so incredibly effective. So, getting into the skill. First, we describe the situation. So, we lay out the facts of the situation. We don't put any judgments in,

and to give you an example to kind of flesh out the skill, we're going to you the example of asking your parents if you can go to therapy. I get this question all the time. I think it's one of the most common things that teens want to know and struggle with. So How to ask your parents if you can go to therapy with the Dear Man Scale.

So, when we describe the situation, we're describing only facts. You will have the opportunity to share your emotions in a minute, but at this point, we only want to outline the facts, so maybe you can say, as you know, I've been struggling for a while now.

I've been noticing that my mood has been lower for the last six months or so. You might have noticed that the school counselor reached out and recommended therapy as a potential option. I've also tried a lot of things independently, whether it was being more consistent with my sleep schedule, trying to be more present in my relationships, really engaging in activities that do make me feel happy and motivated.

And trying to take these more independent measures and approaches to improve my mood, then we move into the express. This is your feelings and opinions on the situation. And so you don't want to assume the other person knows that you've been struggling or that you think therapy is a great option for you.

You want to really let that out and especially if it's like a parent or an adult, vulnerability can go a long way. So maybe you say, Okay. Um, I have been feeling really distressed and overwhelmed. I am honestly feeling really hopeless and discouraged because I don't know what to do. I've never felt this way before and I think therapy might be really helpful for me to be able to talk to someone and get professional support and advice on how I can improve my mental health and improve how I'm feeling. If there's anything like you missed school or you have been more irritable, anything like that, include that in the describe.

So maybe you say, as you know, I've been late for school or I missed a couple of days because I really wasn't feeling well or

I have obviously been a lot more irritable recently, we've been arguing more often and then you do the express. I think that might be a result of how I've been feeling and mentally what I've been trying to process. Then we make our assert. for what you want or if your goal is to just set a boundary and say no, this is where you do that.

And A good assert is a yes or no question. So maybe you say, would you be open to me trying therapy? Or would you be open to me looking for a therapist and starting to meet with them next month? And if it's a parent especially, and your parent is someone who likes to think about things and come back to you later, my parents are definitely that way, say, I want to give you the ask, but please don't feel any need to respond now.

I just wanted to let you know what my hope is and what I would love to hear from you after this conversation. So, can I go to therapy? Can I reach out to my pediatrician to get some referrals? Are you open to me seeing a therapist? And if you're parents are the kind of people that'd be like, sure, we love that idea, but then it never actually happens, attaching that like timeline to it of, can I look for a therapist and start meeting with them this month or next month can be helpful.

Then we do the reinforcement. So the other person wants to know. What is in it for them? What are they getting out of this? Even if it is something that has to relate to you, like your own mental health, there's a lot that the other person can gain. So especially if it's with your parents, you can say, you know, I mentioned that we've been arguing more.

I think that working with a therapist will help me learn more communication skills and be able to be more vulnerable with you and actually articulate what I'm experiencing and help improve our relationship. I'd love to improve my school attendance, that that's not a stressor for you. I'd love to get my mental health under control so I can get my grades up and no, that's no longer a point of contention for us.

Whatever it is, share anything and everything that they will get out of it. And you don't want to be like, and them therapists will make you work on all these things that you need to change so you'll also be better off for it. Like, no. Focus on the things that are actually appealing to them. The reinforcement has to be things that they want out of it and not just that you want out of it.

Maybe you're like, I want to go to therapy so my therapist can call up my parents for being really invalidating. That's not going to be reinforcing for your parents. It's probably going to be really not reinforcing. So again, freement is what they would find to be rewarding. Then we want to stay mindful.

So we are focusing on the goal. We are staying in the moment during this conversation. We're not on our phone. We're not like looking somewhere else, going through a different conversation in our head. We are staying present in this conversation, and we're also really reinforcing the first half of this conversation.

So you maintain your position. You don't get off topic. You keep asking. You again reinforce the things you mentioned in your describe, express, and assert.

DBT has two subskills in here. One is broken record to, again, just reiterate what you've said thus far and also ignoring attack. So if the other person doesn't respond well or is like, no, you can't go to therapy, , why can't you just figure this out yourself? Blah, blah, blah, blah. DBT recommends You not respond to those.

You just keep making your point. Like, I would still like you to consider this as an option, or I would still like you to put some thought into this, and I think doing something short and sweet like that is great, but there's also this idea that if it's not a good time and people are getting really emotional, that can be super ineffective. So if that's the point the conversation gets to, revisiting at a later point can be helpful in getting that objective met. Second to last, you want to appear confident. So you want to be effective, you want to come to the conversation.

And again, stick to these things you've prepared and you can also write it out. I love writing out a dear man being like, use the facts. Here are my emotions. Here's what I'm asking. And especially if it's a parent, they're going to be really impressed if you put that much thought and preparation.

into this request and went into the conversation with all that prepared

and lastly, you negotiate. This might be in this initial conversation. It might be when they come back to you later and give you a response, but you have to be willing to give, to get, and reduce your request so that you can get something out of the situation. So maybe your parents are like, We would potentially be open to therapy, but only if it's covered by the insurance.

Or we'd be open to therapy, but only once every two weeks. Or sure, but you have to do the work to find the therapist. So you can either present negotiating items, like you can say, I'd be willing to do this work. I'd be willing to take this stress out of the situation for you. Or you can Give them the opportunity to bring up those negotiates and meet in the middle. So that is the dear man skill It's incredible. If you guys want to send me a DM on Instagram, I can post a couple Examples if you guys want me to walk through them of how to write a dear man But again writing it out putting it as facts emotions your ask and what's in it for the other person So, so, so helpful.

And it can be really long. It could be a multi part conversation or it can be a paragraph. And you're just like, here's what happened. Here's how I feel. Yes or no, what's your answer? And here's what I hope you can benefit from. So moving into the skill that you can use to improve your self respect, especially if you feel invalidated or not seen in relationships, this is a skill that's really, really helpful.

And so people pleasers, imposter syndrome. Is that even, like, a phrase? This one is for you. So the acronym stands for Be Fair, No Apologies, Stick to Values, and Be Truthful. the main question that you want to ask yourself when doing the FAS scale is how do I want to feel? It's not, what do I want to get out of this?

How do I want the other person to feel leaving this conversation? How do I want to feel in how I presented myself? in this interaction. And the biggest thing about the FASC scale is it doesn't matter how the other person responds. You are choosing to approach this conversation in a way that boosts your own self respect.

And again, you have been honest. You've been fair. You don't apologize. You've stuck to your values. And that allows you to leave the conversation saying, I did everything I stuck to what I Believed in and they weren't receptive and that's okay. So if you are someone who leaves conversations being like, I compromise so much, and I didn't agree with how that turned out, and I should have said X, Y, and Z, this is the skill you wanna go back to.

So being fair. You are being fair to yourself and the other person. You are remembering to validate your own feelings and wishes as well as the other person. This is the dialectic of like, you want to honor your own experience, but you also aren't going to feel great or respect yourself if you're really rude and put the other person down with their experience and how they are showing up in this.

interaction. For no apologies, you're not over apologizing. You are not apologizing for making the request. You're not like, I'm so sorry to ask, but, or I'm so sorry to be an inconvenience, but do you have time for us to have this conversation? You are not apologizing for having an opinion or disagreeing.

So you're not saying, I'm so sorry to say this, or this is probably wrong, but blah, blah, blah, blah. Like you are allowed to have an opinion. You're allowed to make the request. You are allowed to disagree. You're not going to look ashamed. You're not going to have body language of someone that's feeling really ashamed and embarrassed to be saying what you're saying, and you are not invalidating the valid.

So again, our emotions, beliefs, and opinions are valid. Those get validated. We create space for them. We acknowledge them. We don't get mad at them. We don't judge them. We don't have to agree with them, especially if they're someone else's, but we don't push them down and suppress them and judge them.

So make sure to validate whatever emotions and beliefs and opinions are coming up for you in this conversation. Then you are sticking to your values.. You're not selling out your integrity for reasons that aren't. super important, you are being clear on what you believe is moral or valued, and sticking to your guns.

So again, you go into the conversation knowing what you want, knowing what you believe, and you're going to stick to that. And then being truthful. We're not lying, we're not acting helpless when we're not, we're not exaggerating or making up excuses. Again, we want to leave this conversation. feeling like we were effective and brought the best version of ourselves.

So that means being fair, not apologizing, sticking to our values, and being truthful. So that's the F. A. S. T. skill.

And the second or last skill I'm going to give you is the G. I. V. E. skill. And this kind of completes our DBT phrase, Dear Man, G. I. V. E. F. A. S. T. is what they tell you to remember these. But the G. I. V. E. skill is for keeping your relationship. So You are being gentle, acting interested, validating, and using an easy manner.

So when we're being gentle, we are being nice and respectful. We are not giving any verbal or physical attacks. We're not making any threats, we are not judging, and those can be things like moralizing.

Like, if you were a good person, you would do this, or you should, or you shouldn't. We're not adding any blame in this conversation. No sneering, no eye rolling, smirking, like any of those things that, from a body language perspective, are rude and disrespectful. We are avoiding those. For acting interested, we are listening and appearing interested in the other person.

We are making sure that we are paying attention to their point of view, facing the person, giving them body language that shows that we're listening and giving them our full attention. not interrupting and being sensitive to the person's wish to discuss this at a later time if they say that. So be patient.

And that's a really huge one to allow the other person to feel respected and heard in the relationship. Validating. We are validating with words and actions showing that we understand the other person's feelings and thoughts about the situation. We can see things from their point of view. And so you can say things like, I realize this is really hard for you and blah, blah, blah, blah.

I see that you're busy and blah, blah, blah, blah. So you are creating space for their emotional experience or the beliefs or opinions that they hold. And you can also share your perspective and then easy manner. You're just using a little humor. You're smiling. You're keeping things lighthearted and you are, again, bringing your best version of yourself to the conversation.

Okay, this is the DBT adjacent skill I mentioned. It's a skill in the DBT for adolescents handbook, which is by Jill H. Rathus and Alec L. Miller. You've 100 percent seen it if you've done DBT as a teen, but this is one of those skills that, again, if you did DBT as a teen, you're like, oh, of course I've heard of that.

And if you are an adult done DBT, you're like, I have no idea what you're talking about. So, This is a skill that you can do to make peace, reduce conflict, and reduce anger. And so it's kind of, again, one of those skills where you're prioritizing the relationship, you're being more effective, but again, it's like adjacent to the dear man get fast skills.

So, you want to ask yourself, Two questions. The first, you are acknowledging that we make interpretations and assumptions about others that really fuel the emotions we experience, and it can make the situation a lot worse. So first, describe what is the situation from a factual perspective. We're like flipping the dear man on its head here and doing it before we go into this conversation.

And then You ask yourself, how are your interpretations about the other person fueling the emotions you're experiencing? So, are you ashamed about a previous interaction with them? Are you angry at them for doing something? Do you feel betrayed based on something they said? How are those interpretations of what they've done really causing you to have a more emotionally charged perspective on them?

Now, we think about it differently using the THINK acronym. So the first thing we're going to do is we're going to think about it from the other person's perspective or angle. What is their lived experience? might they have done that or said that or chosen to act that way in your previous discussion?

Did you say something or do something that they might have felt was invalidating or rude? So try and empathize. as much as possible, you don't have to say to them , Oh, I was kind of rude. And , no wonder they feel that way. Or no wonder they said that. Or like, I guess I could kind of understand why they did that thing given what was going on in their life.

So we have empathy for what they might be thinking or feeling in that situation. And we think of interpretations for their behavior. So what are some possible interpretations or explanations for their behaviors? Other. then what your judgments are saying. So maybe they felt threatened, maybe they felt upset, maybe they felt overwhelmed, maybe they felt invalidated and not just like they're doing this because they're a bad person.

Then we notice ways that the other person has been trying to make things better to help or show that they care. Or notice how the other person may be struggling with their own stress or problems. This one's huge, and if you just do this in your interactions going forward, this will have a really big impact.

And this was really big for my parents and I in treatment to kind of have that awareness and appreciation that everyone was trying to make things better and in their own way trying to improve our relationship. And even if it wasn't the way I would have done it, they were still making those steps.

So really try and notice anything, like did they hold the door? Did they get you a coffee? Did they smile instead of frown at you? Any of those little things that they've done to try and improve the situation, or what have they been dealing with internally that might be a vulnerability factor when it comes to your relationship?

Are they stressed? Are they overwhelmed? Is someone else also mad at them? Is it finals week? Are they also stressed because you're having a lot of family time? Whatever it is, Really think about that when you go into the interaction. And lastly, use kindness. So can you use kindness and be gentle when you approach the other person?

And that, again, goes back to the give skill, validating

and having that body language that shows you're interested in being gentle and having that easy, lighthearted manner. So to give you the TLDR of these skills. When we want to have an objective met, and whether it's saying no, saying yes to something, or asking someone for something, we use the dear man skill.

We describe, express, assert, and then we reinforce what's in it for them, and with regard to how we approach the conversation, we are mindful, we appear confident, and we negotiate. If you want to maintain your self respect, you are using the fast skill. We are being fair. We're not over apologizing. We're sticking to our values and being truthful. If we want to maintain or improve the relationship, we are using the give skills. We're being gentle, acting interested, validating, and using an easy manner.

And if we have a conflict or if our own emotions are impacting the way we're showing up in the relationship, we use the think skill. And we think about it from the other person's perspective. We have empathy. We We understand what interpretations are at play, we notice how the other person has been trying to make the situation better or been struggling themselves, and we use kindness.

hope those are helpful. I hope you feel more prepared going into your winter break and all your family time, whatever other relationship stress you might have coming up on the horizon. But these skills have been really, really, really helpful with me, especially for my family relationships, and I hope they are helpful for you.

If you guys liked this episode on interpersonal effectiveness, there's a lot more that we can dive into, whether it is how firmly to set a boundary, exactly how to go about

Being mindful of others, how to end relationships,

things like that. So if you guys want more specific skills and ways that you can evaluate those, let me know and we can do another interpersonal effectiveness episode down the road.

So, with that, I will talk to you guys next week for a really fun interview. Thank you so much for listening, and as always, leave a review. You'll hear my little outro in a second, but thank you guys so much. I really appreciate anyone who stuck around until the end. You guys are the best, and I hope you enjoyed the episode

Sadie: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of she persisted. If you enjoyed, make sure to share with a friend or family member, it really helps out the podcast. And if you haven't already leave a review on apple podcasts or Spotify, you can also make sure to follow along at actually persisted podcast on both Instagram and Tik TOK, and check out all the bonus resources, content and information on my website.

She persisted podcast.com. Thanks for supporting. Keep persisting and I'll see you next week. .

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