172. BOUNDARIES: How to Set Them and What To Do If Others Reject Them feat. Terri Cole

Dec 15

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Today's guest is Terri Cole— a licensed psychotherapist, global relationship and empowerment expert, and the author of Boundary Boss-The Essential Guide to Talk True, Be Seen and (Finally) Live Free. She has worked for over 20 years with a diverse group of clients that includes everyone from stay-at-home moms to celebrities and Fortune 500 CEOs, teaching them how to establish and maintain healthy boundaries and create and sustain vibrant relationships. We discuss why she became so interested in boundaries as a therapist, what boundaries can look like for each individual, red flags that you aren’t setting enough boundaries in your relationships, the benefits of setting boundaries, how a lack of boundaries can cause people-pleasing and self-abandoning, how to set effective boundaries in your relationships— including with authority figures such as parents or teachers—, what to do when someone doesn’t respect your boundaries and when to take space from them, when people manipulate others under the guise of boundaries, and the secret to feeling more empowered in our relationships.

Mentioned In The Episode…

+ Terri's Website

+ Terri's Book & Workbook

+ Set Boundaries With Love

+ The Terri Cole Show

+ Dr. Shefali

SHOP GUEST RECOMMENDATIONS: https://amzn.to/3A69GOC

Episode Sponsors

🛋This week's episode is sponsored by Teen Counseling. Teen Counseling is an online therapy program with over 14,000 licensed therapists in their network offering support with depression, anxiety, relationships, trauma, and more via text, talk, and video counseling. Head to teencounseling.com/shepersisted to find a therapist today!

About She Persisted (formerly Nevertheless, She Persisted)

After a year and a half of intensive treatment for severe depression and anxiety, 18-year-old Sadie recounts her journey by interviewing family members, professionals, and fellow teens to offer self-improvement tips, DBT education, and personal experiences. She Persisted is the reminder that someone else has been there too and your inspiration to live your life worth living.

a note: this is an automated transcription so please ignore any accidental misspellings!

Sadie: Welcome to She Persisted. I'm your host, Sadie Sutton, a 19 year old from the Bay Area studying psychology at the University of Penn. She Persisted is the Teen Mental Health Podcast made for teenagers by a teen. In each episode, I'll bring you authentic, accessible, and relatable conversations about every aspect of mental wellness.

Sadie: You can expect evidence-based, teen approved resources, coping skills, including lots of D B T insights and education in. Each piece of content you consume, she persisted, Offers you a safe space to feel validated and understood in your struggle, while encouraging you to take ownership of your journey and build your life worth living.

Sadie: So let's dive in this week on She persisted.

Terri: People think if you have good boundaries, you're mean, you're verbally punching people in the face it really is not true. It's more like, you know the people in your life who say yes. When they really want to say no, you know, the people pleasers, you know, your friends who were like, I'm definitely gonna be there on Friday.

Sadie: Hello, hello, and welcome to She Persisted. I am so excited you're here today. We have an incredible episode all about boundaries. If you've listened to the podcast before, there have been a lot of guests that have mentioned the importance of setting boundaries, how beneficial it can be in your relationships, and maintaining your self respect.

Sadie: So today we have an expert on the podcast to walk us through Everything when it comes to boundaries. Our guest is Terry Cole. She's a licensed psychotherapist and a global relationship and empowerment expert. She's also the author of Boundary Boss

Sadie: and has a really incredible career and a whole host of experiences related to boundaries. She has worked for over 20 years with everyone from

Sadie: So, in this episode, we talk about her background, why she became a therapist, why she became so interested in boundaries. We talk about what boundaries actually look like for different people because it can vary a lot. Red flags that you aren't setting enough boundaries in your relationships, why it is important to set boundaries.

Sadie: We talk about things like people pleasing and self abandoning. We also talk about what to do when an authority figure is the person you're setting a boundary with. We also talk about worst case scenarios, like if someone doesn't respect your boundary, , or when people manipulate others but say it's quote unquote setting a boundary.

Sadie: We also talk about taking space from other people, and lastly, feeling empowered in relationships. So, if you have ever wanted to set a boundary or Learn more about boundaries. This is the episode for you. And I want to keep this intro short and sweet so we can just dive in because this is an incredible conversation.

Sadie: As always, make sure to leave a review, share the podcast with a friend or family member. If this episode was helpful, it really helps out the show. And with that, let's get into it.

Sadie: Thank you so much for joining me today on She Persisted. I am so excited to have you on the show. I think boundaries are something that are kind of new for teens and can be challenging to navigate and there's a lot of questions there, can be a little bit uncomfortable sometimes, so I'm so excited to get your perspective and have this conversation.

Sadie: Great. Me too.

Terri: Happy to be here, Sadie.

Sadie: So, for listeners who have not read your book or are not familiar with your background already, can you give us some context on how you got into the mental health space and specializing in specifically relationships and

Terri: boundaries? Sure. , I actually was a talent agent before I became a psychotherapist, so I was negotiating contracts for celebrities and supermodels for almost 10 years before I left that business to become a therapist.

Terri: , And, you know, people think that those things are very different, and yet the reality is that those things are very much the same, where I realized as, , a talent agent that I was more interested in the mental well being. of my clients than I was about a movie deal or a Pantene deal. So I was like, I think I need to get out of here.

Terri: And I think it was really because of my own mental health journey because I, my life had changed so much because I started therapy when I was 19, stopped drinking when I was 21. Like, I really had all of this growth. And from therapy itself, from my own personal therapy, and it changed my life so much. I was like, I really want to help other people change their lives in this same way.

Terri: So I became super into self help and along the path while I was a talent agent, I was still really into. Self evolution and self help. I was learning, reading. It was like, you know, all that what was popular at the time and I was like, wow, this is amazing. Cause really the self help stuff, it was like eighties and nineties was just sort of really starting to come up.

Terri: , and then once I became a therapist. I could not believe how it was like an epidemic of people having no idea what their boundaries are, what boundaries in general are. And it was the same thing that I suffered from myself. So in my own therapeutic journey, I had to learn what boundaries were because what was happening is that I was, you know, in relationships, but I found myself kind of like bitter.

Terri: You know what I mean? Where I would be like, well, if this person were just different, then it would be different. Or if this person weren't just like this, a lot of times I was feeling in my early twenties that people were like, quote unquote, taking advantage of me. And what I realized once I got into therapy and started figuring things out is that I was really sort of serving myself up on a platter.

Terri: I was offering, I was overgiving, I was over committing, I was over functioning, but I then would get pissed off and blame them, you know? And so. , that process of turning that around in my own life really, , changed my relationships and really changed the quality of my life. So when I became a psychotherapist, I could see this happening with my clients where every person who came in, no matter what their presenting problem was, cause they could come in with anything, problems at work, problems in their marriage, problems with their friends, but I could sort of follow the dots backwards.

Terri: And it would all get to the same place, which was that they were also bitter because they had no idea how to set their boundaries and in teaching them how to create boundaries, the language of boundaries, communicating boundaries, the quality of their lives and relationships got so much better. And I just realized, well, man.

Terri: Nobody knows how to do this. I think I need to write a book. So it took me about 20 something years to write a book, but I finally did. I love

Sadie: it. You mentioned the feeling of guilt. Are there other red flags or things to be aware of in your relationships that can be a clue or a sign that you're not setting boundaries where you should be, , or you're breaking boundaries that have been set?

Sadie: How can people know like, okay, I've got to go back to the drawing board, get these established because something's not

Terri: working. Well, let's start with what are boundaries, right? Let's just, we'll all be on the same page and then I'll answer the question. According to me, I want you to think about your boundaries as your own personal rules of engagement.

Terri: This is how we let other people know. What's okay with us and what is not okay with us. Your boundaries are made up of your preferences, your desires, your limits, and your deal breakers, right? And they're very unique. You know, Sadie, what yours would be are different than what mine would be. Every person is unique.

Terri: Right? Your preferences are different than mine. Your deal breakers, the stuff that are a no go in a relationship for you would be different than mine, but we all have a right to them. And the problem with this is that most people who sit on my therapy couch don't really know their preferences, their limits, and their deal breakers.

Terri: And even the ones who do know, it's not enough to just know them. You have to know them and then know how to communicate them in actual words. So there's a lot that we need to learn about doing this. So that's what boundaries are. Back to your question, which is how do we know? Like, where we need boundaries.

Terri: How do we know when boundaries are being violated? How do we know? Well, I think we can start with, and everybody listening or watching this can do this right now. Let's start with taking a resentment inventory, because that will definitely show you where a boundary is needed. Where either, maybe you're not setting a boundary, maybe you're thinking it but you're not actually doing it.

Terri: Or maybe you have a set of boundary and you've got kind of a little bit of a boundary bully in your life who's sort of trampling on that boundary. Or you say no to them and they keep coming back to you. Being like, but why? And, but I did this for you, you should do it. Like someone really trying to wear down your no is also a boundary violation.

Terri: But if those of you who are listening or watching, The first person that came to your mind when I said, do a resentment inventory, that's probably the person that you need boundaries with the most. I won't say that's the person you should start with. I think it makes more sense for us to start with Lower priority people, right?

Terri: Acquaintances. If you go out to lunch and they get your salad wrong, just send the friggin salad back so you can actually get the one that you ordered nicely. We can do all of this nicely and we can also, , establish our boundaries. With kindness. With love. Like, I feel like, honestly, Sadie, I feel like boundaries have a really bad rap.

Terri: Where people think if you have good boundaries, you're really bitchy, you're mean, you're verbally punching people in the face all the time. You're all no, no, no. It's not true. It really is not true. It's more like, look at boundaries. It's more like, you know the people in your life who say yes. When they really want to say no, you know, the people pleasers, you know, your friends who were like, I'm definitely gonna be there on Friday.

Terri: And in your mind you go, well, there's like a 50 percent chance that she's gonna be there. Right? You know, your friends who have trouble saying no, and maybe many of you listening or watching. I certainly did. When I was younger, I was the people pleaser extraordinaire where I didn't want anyone to be disappointed or mad or upset or angry, but you know, you can't, you can't do, you know, I would like agree to five sets of plans in one night, right?

Terri: Cause I didn't want to, I didn't want to say no to anybody. Obviously I couldn't actually do that. So I think it matters how others perceive you too, right? Do you want people to look at you and be like, oh yeah, she's, she's nice, but she doesn't keep her word. Right. That doesn't feel good either.

Sadie: Mhm. You mentioned, , that when you set more effective boundaries, you are able to not flake out on these different commitments.

Sadie: It can help you feel like lots of a people pleaser. Before we get into the specifics of how to set boundaries, especially when your audience is different. What are the benefits of setting boundaries? Obviously there are internal ones, there are external ones, but for teens who really haven't navigated this before or boundaries have been set for them by teachers or parents or peers, why is it important to set these boundaries, , within your life?

Terri: Well, it's important to know your boundaries and yes, to set them, but let's just start with knowing them because if we, if you think about it, your preferences. Your limits, your deal breakers, right? I tell you those make up your boundaries, but you know what else they also make up? Who you are, right? It's not just your boundaries.

Terri: Your preferences, why they matter is because that's That's who you are, sharing them with the people in your life. This is how people get to know us, is we tell the truth about what we want, about what we don't want, about what we like, about what we don't like. So the benefit of doing it, honestly, the most important benefit is being accurately known.

Terri: And when you're a teenager, listen, you're just getting to know yourself, right? And it's valuable to know yourself, but I want you to question, what are your preferences? Right. What are your limits? What are your deal breakers? And this can be around anything. It could be around drugs. It could be around drinking.

Terri: It could be around sexual intimacy. Like this is a very important time where there can be a lot of pressure socially around things that I'm not saying like the, you know, peer pressure, you're going to do whatever, but there's truth. In the fact that if it's something, you know, all your friends are doing something, or there's people asking you to do things that you don't want to do, you have to know yourself to be able to say, Hey, that's not for me.

Terri: It's not my thing. And what happens when you're able to do that, is that you have self respect. And other people learn to respect you as someone who tells the truth. As someone who, you know, marches to the beat of their own drum, let's just say, so there's so many benefits of doing it, but also understand that you're growing right at this point in your life.

Terri: And so how you feel now about something in five years from now, you may feel differently, but what is valuable is the inquiry, the self reflection, the looking in and the you caring about how you feel and what you think. And I really want to say this, and I'm not sure how to say it. Other than just be straightforward.

Terri: You, what you think, how you feel, what you want, has to be more important to you than what anyone else wants, thinks, and feels. Now, when you're still a minor, you have to consider the authorities in your life. Your parents, teachers, right? So, it's not like you can just be like, I'm hitting the road, bye. , it's not like you can not take into consideration.

Terri: What some of the adults in your life think and hopefully you respect them or you care about what they think and that's great But I really want you to develop Discernment around what you think because a lot of times what happens or what I see in my therapy practice or people in their 20s 30s 40s 50s Coming in and where they prioritized what other people thought felt and wanted above themselves For so long that, you know, they find themselves sitting on a therapist couch and at 50 being like, why does my life suck?

Terri: Why am I unsatisfied? Why am I bitter? Why do I feel unimportant to people in my life? And part of that is because we set ourselves up for that if we're people pleasing and self abandoning in that process. Does that make sense? Mm

Sadie: hmm. For listeners who have never heard of people pleasing and self abandoning, can you explain what those terms are and then also how they can show up in relationships?

Terri: Sure. Well, people pleasing is when we are looking outside of ourselves, and a lot of times it does mean we say yes when we want to say no, that we're more concerned. In pleasing others than we are in pleasing ourselves, and this can be our parents, this can be teachers, this can be friends, it can be a romantic partnership, but it's like where we're raised, you know, I mean, listen, trust me, we all have really good reasons to have disordered boundaries because most of us were raised and praised for being self abandoning codependents, like The more, the more self sacrificing the better, which, you know, I don't necessarily agree with obviously as a therapist.

Terri: , so that's what people pleasing means. Self abandoning means when you do things that are against your own best interest, where you have a test tomorrow and your girlfriend or your boyfriend is like, but I really want you to stay out late tonight with me. And even though you know you should go home and study and you really want to go home and study, you're too afraid to disappoint.

Terri: You're a person. And so you stay out late, maybe you bomb the test and you feel bad because you let yourself down, right? That self abandonment where you know the right thing to do for you, but yet you choose sort of the other person's approval over what you want to do. And this could also apply to, let's just say you not wanting to be super sexual with someone, but then the other person pressuring you and you giving into it, it might make you feel bad later, right?

Terri: Where you did it to please them, but then you're sort of left feeling like, well, that was not so pleasing for me. That's not what I wanted to do. So that's what self abandonment is. When you do something that is in opposition to your actual best interest, but you do it. to sort of please someone else because someone else wants something from you.

Sadie: Gotcha. So getting into setting boundaries themselves, can you give us a little overhaul masterclass on how we can set boundaries and be effective about that? Because you mentioned that there's a nice way to do it to be very polite and respectful. And I'm sure there's also a lot of ways to set boundaries that don't help your relationship.

Sadie: So how can you make sure that you're not yourself? You're standing up for what your needs are, but you are also setting that boundary in a relationship and potentially upsetting the other person if that is something that's at play.

Terri: Yep. So first you have to identify what Boundary is needed, right?

Terri: What is, what is happening? , where you feel uncomfortable, you did that resentment inventory, meaning you brought to mind someone or something where you feel, Oh, like that in the middle of your chest, that sense of resentment, then you have to identify to yourself, Hmm, what, what is needed here? What is happening?

Terri: What is not working? , so let's say you have a boyfriend or a girlfriend who, I don't know, wants to talk every night for like three hours, but like you would like to do homework and watch Netflix and go to sleep or whatever it is. The boundary that needs to be set there is you want to set a limit on the amount of time that you talk every night.

Terri: So that might be hard, right? Because you're, you're The person wants to talk to you or FaceTime with you forever and ever and because they love you so much or whatever the deal is and you don't want to reject them, you don't want to hurt their feelings, but you also don't want to talk three hours a night.

Terri: So that's the center of the fake scenario we just made up. So how would you do it? Well, you'd establish that we need, I need to have a conversation to set a limit with the amount of time that we're talking on FaceTime at night. How am I going to approach it? Well, I, so we look at all the situations we go, well, what, what, what would be the best time to approach my person?

Terri: Well, my boyfriend is not a morning person, so I'm not going to talk to him about it before school. I'm going to pick a time, maybe after school when we meet up, I could talk to him then. Now you're going to come up with the words that you're going to say, and we can always start with sweetness. We can always start with kindness.

Terri: So you can start the sentence with, I love how much connection we have. It really means a lot to me. And I'm noticing that us talking for so long at night is really impacting my sleep. So I want to make a simple request. That we keep it to an hour at night because I really feel like I need to sleep and I need to do my homework.

Terri: Can we agree to keep it to an hour? So that is sort of the steps you would take. You figure out what needs to happen. You figure out the best time to have the conversation. You can even visualize it going well. And when I say going well, I don't necessarily mean the other person doing what you want them to do.

Terri: When I say it going well, I mean you having the courage to assert the limit or the boundary with the person. That is it going well, right? Because it's you having the courage to do it. Because once, once we assert a boundary, how the other person responds, that is their side of the street, right? Your side of the street is to try to get your needs met, which is to not talk to them for three hours at night.

Terri: Their side of the street. Is to get their need met and maybe they were tired too, maybe they didn't want to, you know, they may, you might be shocked that you start asserting your boundaries and people go, Oh my God, you're so right. Even though it's fun, like I'm tired too. So yeah, let's just keep it to an hour.

Terri: Great. And you'll be so glad that you said something. And even if they say, Oh, it kind of hurts my feelings. I really love talking to you. You can say, listen, I love talking to you too. I just, I just got to get sleep. Right. Yeah. We can speak to those things, , the other person's concern, what is happening for the other person.

Terri: But first and foremost, you have to figure out what is not working for you and how you do that is by doing a resentment inventory, is by looking at where are you pissed off in life. Because where we feel angry, there's definitely a need that is going unmet. when we feel frustrated and kind of resentful.

Terri: Mm hmm.

Sadie: Today's episode is brought to you by Teen Counseling. You guys know that when I have a therapist on the podcast or we talk about something that people work on in therapy, I like to give you a resource and that resource is Teen Counseling. So, if you haven't heard of Teen Counseling, it is BetterHelp's branch of online therapy for teens.

Sadie: They have over 14, 000 licensed therapists in their network and offer support on things like depression, anxiety, relationships, trauma, and so much more. So if you're listening to this episode and you're like, Oh my goodness, this is exactly what I'm struggling with. And I want more support on this.

Sadie: Working with a therapist could be a great next step. So if you want to check that out and you don't know where to start, you can head to teen counseling dot com slash she persisted. to find a therapist that meets your needs, and they offer talk, text, and video counseling, so depending on what level of support you're looking for, they're able to meet you right where you're at.

Sadie: Again, that is teencounseling. com slash ePersisted.

Sadie: Troubleshooting setting boundaries. What do you do when someone either responds really horribly in the moment and is like, how dare you say that? Like, that is so rude. That is not okay to ask. Or they don't respect it at all. Maybe they're like, okay. And then they keep coming back calling late at night to use the same example.

Sadie: Not. Respecting that boundary that you've tried to set, how do you navigate that side of the situation?

Terri: Well, two things. So, let's just say they're ignoring the boundary and they think you're going to talk for three hours. You, you get off the phone. You say, Hey, remember when we talked on Tuesday about keeping this to an hour?

Terri: So, I have my timer on, hour's up, I gotta go hop in the shower. It was great seeing, you know, great seeing you. I'll see you tomorrow at school. Like We don't just because we assert the desired boundary doesn't mean we're never gonna have to have a conversation about it again Right people it's gonna take a minute for people to sort of get on the bandwagon of the changes That we want and we can't be so tender so thin skinned that we're like, well, I mentioned it I'm never talking about it again, right?

Terri: You're probably gonna have to talk about it again, and that's okay and Someone resisting you changing something doesn't mean that they're a jerk and doesn't mean that they don't respect you. It is human nature to resist change. It really is. We fear it and this is hardwired into us. from back in the cave people days, right?

Terri: Change meant danger. And so unconsciously, we, we have this fear that if your person is changing something, does it really mean she doesn't really like you anymore? And that's why she doesn't want to face down with you for three hours, right? So there's going to be fear. So my feeling is expect that you'll have to assert your boundary more than once, probably.

Terri: Now, if somebody is trampling on your boundary 50 times, obviously this is a problem after you've talked about it. But one time. or two times. I feel like this is pretty par for the course. So what do you do if somebody freaks out? That was the first example. What if someone just starts losing? I can't believe how rude you are.

Terri: You acknowledge. I see that you're really upset by this. I really care about you. I'm not setting this boundary. as a way to hurt you. This is what I need to do, because I need to get sleep. It really isn't about saying anything negative about how I feel about you, but I see that you're upset. Yeah,

Sadie: I think something that a lot of teens become aware of, and you mentioned this, is you get to know yourself and get to understand your preferences and likes and dislikes can be different dynamics with their parents, , and they can have the desire or want to set boundaries to maybe have healthier communication or advocate for themselves or try and Request your privilege whatever it is And I think that can be a really challenging situation to navigate because there is that power and balance You're not necessarily on a level playing field where you can think well hanging up now.

Sadie: Good night. Your parents are like Excuse me, you have to listen to me. Excuse me, you're grounded. Exactly, exactly. You're like, okay, but bye now. , I'd love to get your advice and perspective on how to approach a situation like that, where you come into the situation, you already have less autonomy, less of a say, but you'd still like to get your needs met and respected.

Sadie: And especially if it's an emotional need, like you're like, this is. So invalidating, and this really hurts for the next couple of days whenever we have interactions, when you speak to me this way or whatever it is. Yeah. So how do you navigate that when you have, maybe it's a parent, maybe it's a teacher, maybe it's boss that you wanna set a boundary with, and you're not in a position where you can be maybe like demanding all these things or coming in on the same level?

Terri: Well, each one of those things is different. So I think that a relationship with a parent. As long as they're not abusive, hopefully, I mean, this is very important that you're able to say, Hey, it really hurts my, I'm glad, you know, I appreciate that we can talk, but it really hurts my feelings. When you, I remember something happened with me and my father when I was in college, like I was young.

Terri: It was like, maybe in my freshman year in college. And I remember him being like, I'm gonna take the car away because I didn't give you that car so you could see your hometown boyfriend, right? I was still dating someone from home. Yeah. And I remember being so mad because I was like, just prove positive that this guy has no effin idea who I am.

Terri: Because I'm not seeing my boyfriend at, like, I'm so psyched to be at college. I haven't even once gone home to see my boyfriend. What are you even talking about? I have an idea. How about ask me? Why don't we have a conversation instead of you making a negative assumption about me? I just remember being so mad.

Terri: I ran out of his house and I went like three, three blocks down, bawling my eyes out, would not go back in. My sister had to come get me. It was like, Dude, you literally have to come back to the house. And then my father who had the emotional IQ of a sneaker was like, uh, okay, you could take the car back. I was like, again, missing the entire point.

Terri: But I tell you that because the lack of impairment. When you are dealing with someone who has, you know, someone who's paying your tuition or someone whose house you're living in, you don't, it's not the same playing field as we're talking about if how you would approach a boundary with your friends or with your romantic partner.

Terri: So I think that we have to take that into consideration with your parents though. I think it's very important that you work to be understood and you can do it respectfully. Tell the truth. And the way we do this is that we do not point fingers, we don't say you, you, you, because nobody wants to hear that.

Terri: We say, our interaction the other night left me really feeling hurt, right? Our interaction, you're not saying what you said necessarily, and I want to talk about it. And hopefully they will be able to talk about it. , with a boss, it's different because someone who can fire you, right? You, you really have to, it depends on the job.

Terri: It depends on what are your actual rights with that job. And if you're 17 and you're working at a job, you probably don't have very many rights. It's probably, you know, entry level job, right? So I think that you can make a simple request about things that you would like or the way you would like it to be.

Terri: But if your boss has a bad attitude. You're probably not going to be like, hey, dude, I don't like your attitude, right?

Sadie: That word choice doesn't work for me. Like, probably not going to be received well.

Terri: Probably not. And it's also not appropriate. Yeah. Right? Because you don't have to like their attitude because They are your boss and their job description doesn't necessarily say be smiley.

Terri: So again, we have to look at what are our rights and what are our responsibilities and with teachers too. There is, it depends on what's happening. If the teacher is doing something that's kind of egregious, it's really pretty bad or being Demeaning or degrading and you don't feel like it's someone you can talk to.

Terri: I definitely would go to someone at the school though. I would go to a counselor. I would go to someone above them, sort of, because there are rules and regulations within a school system that there may not be if you're working at Burger King. You know what I mean? So you have to be mindful of the power.

Terri: difference as you said, but the most important example there really is the one within the family system to do your best to assert how you feel and what you want. Negotiate for what you want. It doesn't mean that your parents will go for it, but try if they're like, well, we don't trust that you'll do whatever , like try if you feel like you're trustworthy and that they should trust you, go for it, negotiate.

Terri: They may or may not do it, but at least you're asserting yourself. So. Your side of the street is clean if you assert your preference. Doesn't mean they're always gonna want, give in to it, you know? Yeah.

Sadie: What is your philosophy on, like, taking a step back, taking space, or even ending relationships when boundaries aren't being respected?

Sadie: Is that something that you are a fan of is not the right term, or something that you advocate when those boundaries are really not being respected, or do you find that it's important to continue to practice setting those boundaries to continue to work that muscle, , and become more effective?

Terri: I would say that it depends on what the boundaries are that are being crossed.

Terri: I mean there really does come a point if someone, like the way that I teach it in my books and the way that I teach it in my courses, is that if someone is what I call a repeat boundary offender, Then we have to attach a consequence to the boundary if it continues to be violated. So maybe you break up with the person, right?

Terri: If they violate the boundary and you've said, Hey, if this happens again, if you, if I catch you texting with your ex or whatever the thing is, again, this is a breach of trust for me and I will end the relationship. But here's the thing. We have to be willing. To follow through on whatever the consequence we say is going to be, right?

Terri: It's like we can't threaten a consequence because that isn't effective. It's getting clear in your own mind. What's an appropriate consequence? Because I'm, I'm a big believer in Taking self protective action, right? We don't have to stay in relationships forever with people if they are boundary bullies or boundary destroyers.

Terri: , but there's such a huge space between people barely saying anything about their boundaries, which is how most people are, to people ghosting people or cutting people off from it. Like there's an amazing amount in between when you really start. Asserting yourself and just saying, Oh, Hey, I wanted to bring this to your attention.

Terri: When you were on your phone while I was talking to whatever, it hurt my feelings. It made me feel like you weren't listening. So I'd like to make a simple request that if we're talking that you get off your phone or whatever.

Terri: , this is how we create better relationships. This is how the people in our lives. Know us and, and know who we are and know how we feel about things and we become so much less like tender about everything. You can't be super thin skinned where when you start actually negotiating for yourself a little bit, it becomes so much easier to just say, I would really like this or I actually don't like that or I would like to do this instead.

Terri: It doesn't always mean people will agree, but at least there's something really powerful about you knowing yourself and you going for it. Right? So what if they go, Alright, not tonight, we'll do it another night. It's not the end of the world. But there's something really powerful for your self esteem to actually go for your preferences, you know?

Terri: Yeah.

Sadie: Is there such a thing as setting too many boundaries? I'm sure it's not from the same Like mental state of being like, I'm going to avoid everything and say I can't do any of these commitments. But do you, have you ever had clients that navigate this or people that come to you and they've just set so many boundaries that it now is almost a deficit to their well being and has become

Terri: You know, it's funny. It's rather than that, it's more that people misunderstand what boundaries are. So they actually are trying to manipulate. Other people and they're calling it their boundaries. So I had a client whose boyfriend was like, I, when you're out with your friends, I need you to call me every hour.

Terri: That's my boundary because you know, I'm insecure. And I was like, That's not a boundary, dude. That's just coercive control. That is not a boundary. And we can also bring up the Jonah Hill thing. Do you remember on, on, , social media? So Jonah Hill, the actor, do you know who he is or is he like too old for you people?

Terri: No. Yes, definitely. Okay. Just checking. He was dating Sarah Brady is her name, who is a semi pro surfer. And she released these private text messages between them where he was totally like had this list of demands that she should take down every picture of her in a bikini on her, on her Instagram, that she can't hang out with other surfers.

Terri: She can't, she can't have lunch with like loose women, whatever ridiculous. And he was calling them. And he was saying, these are my boundaries, and if you can't agree to them, and if you're a person who can't, that's fine. And I could not believe how dumb the general public can be. When I was reading the comments, they were all like, well, I mean, he said it was fine if she didn't agree.

Terri: I'm like, dude, he

Sadie: met her. People were like, would I do this in my relationship? And some people were like, oh, totally. Very reasonable to say.

Terri: Not at all, because here's the thing. She was a surfer when he met her. So that would, you know what? Let's flip it around. You know what that would be like? That would be like her saying to him, even though they met and he was already a famous actor, her saying, I know you're an actor, but now that we're dating, my boundary is that you never do another movie where you have to kiss another person.

Terri: where you're a leading man. You can only be the sidekick. Why? That's my boundary. And if you don't want to do it, that's fine. Nobody would think that was normal. Nobody would say that's fine. Everyone would say she was being a manipulative, crazy person, which is what he was being. So that's what I see more actually Sadie is where people are using boundaries.

Terri: They're calling them boundaries, but they're not boundaries. They're a way to manipulate. And they'll, they'll also, it's like controlling someone else. , another example is like I had someone who we were at this event and she, she's someone who's really paranoid. I don't know what happened in her life, but anytime anyone is too close to her, she gets weird.

Terri: So that's her though. The person behind her was not too close to her. They were like a normal thing apart. And she kept looking back and she's like moving and she's like, he's encroaching on my boundaries. And I was like. Is he though? Because I'm sitting exactly as far away from the person who's behind me and I feel perfectly fine.

Terri: Rather than blame the other person, if you feel com and I just said, if you want to get up and move, maybe you should. Go for it, yeah. Right, right? But why do we got to make that person wrong? That's you. I had another person say, I was sitting on a bench in the park and someone came and sat on the other end of the bench and they, they violated my boundary.

Terri: I was like, In a public park? On a public bench? No they didn't. Do you own that bench? Like, people are

Sadie: confused. Yeah, I think that's really helpful and it also ties into the conversation of triggers and like the idea of is it your responsibility to navigate the situation or is it others responsibilities to like center themselves to what is triggering to you and I love the approach that you mentioned there where it's like boundaries and setting these limits or not.

Sadie: a way to control other people. It's again to have yourself be known and be effective and avoid that resentment in relationships. So I think that's a really helpful differentiation

Terri: to make. Yes. You know, Dr. Shefali, I don't know if you know her, but she's actually big in my space. She's amazing. She talks about triggers.

Terri: All of your triggers are internal. Yeah. And you're like, oh, yeah, they are. Which is great news because that means that We can do something about them. We can understand them. We can, , avoid the situations or work it out as opposed to, right? So we're responsible. And I don't even call them triggers. I say the things that activate us.

Terri: Because I feel like the word trigger is so overused and abused on mine, I can't even take it.

Sadie: It's so true, and when you said, , they're all internal, I'm like, yeah, you would never be like, I'm cold, I'm feeling triggered, but it's a little warm in here, that's a bit, like, you would never say that, and so I love that, that phrase, that's amazing.

Sadie: The last thing that I wanted to ask you, which is boundaries to Jason, is this idea that you talk about, which I think is so important, and something that is huge in DBT as well, which is that you always have a choice, and I learned this as a teen, and up until that point, I Didn't understand that you always have a choice.

Sadie: And I think especially when you're struggling with feeling like you have autonomy and you can act, maybe you can actually change your life. Even when you don't have control over all of these decisions, I think it's such an important concept. So can you speak a little bit to that and especially how that shows up in relationships and boundary setting?

Terri: Well, I think that one of the biggest ways that we feel unempowered in relationships is when we give our power away. When we don't feel like we have a choice when someone wants something from us And we do not really in our hearts believe we can say no we feel like to hold on to the person We must say yes to stay in their good graces.

Terri: We must say yes, and I think that the biggest Epiphany for most of my therapy clients is that even in those situations you actually do have a choice and what? Makes you go from sort of being a boundary disaster to a boundary boss is Learning to exercise that choice and the more you do it the easier it gets I want you every person listening or watching dial in to how you feel no more insta Yessing people no more insta yessing.

Terri: We're gonna think really think about do you want to do that thing, right? Is that good for you? Are you up for it? Do you have the bandwidth for it? And so, the easiest way I find for us to sort of exercise our no, or exercise our choice, is to, , stop the INSTY S and just buy time. If someone asks you, so, can you do something on Friday, babysit for me on Friday, whatever, you can say, I need to check my schedule.

Terri: I'll let you know. I need to check with my partner, my parent, my whomever. I'll let you know tomorrow or let you know on Wednesday. The more we train people, because another thing that I think that we don't realize is that we train people in our lives. We teach them what they can expect from us. And let's say that you've taught everyone.

Terri: That you're the yes girl. You can also teach them now that you're the maybe girl. And you can teach them that you're sometimes the no girl too. Like you can be all of those things, but it's not happening to you. You know like in those scary movies when they're like, Dude, the call is coming from within the house.

Terri: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. The choice is within you. You may feel that pressure, but I want you to slow down, and if you can just stop the insta yes, it is so much easier to deliver a no if you haven't already given a reactive yes. Yes.

Sadie: I love that so much and I think that's the perfect point to wrap up on if people want to listen to your podcast, follow you on social media, read your book, all of the things, where can they do

Terri: that?

Terri: Okay. Well, first of all, I have a gift for you guys. So you're going to go to boundarybox. me forward slash she persisted and it's going to be all about how to set boundaries with love because I think that we worry. That it means we're mean, which it doesn't. , follow me on Insta. I'm just at Terry Cole.

Terri: That's where I hang out the most. I have a pod as well that 2015 called The Terry Cole Show. I have a book called Boundary Boss. I have a Boundary Boss workbook that just came out. So I got lots of things in the hopper. You can find out everything I'm doing at my website, which is terrycole. com.

Sadie: Amazing.

Sadie: All of that will be in the show notes. Thank you so much, Terry, for joining me today.

Sadie: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of she persisted. If you enjoyed, make sure to share with a friend or family member, it really helps out the podcast. And if you haven't already leave a review on apple podcasts or Spotify, you can also make sure to follow along at actually persisted podcast on both Instagram and Tik TOK, and check out all the bonus resources, content and information on my website.

Sadie: She persisted podcast.com. Thanks for supporting. Keep persisting and I'll see you next week.

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