222. building your dream life is possible: here’s how feat. dr. emily anhalt

May 31

listen to this episode:

today’s guest is dr. emily anhalt—clinical psychologist, emotional fitness expert, author, and co-founder of⁠ coa: your gym for mental health⁠. dr. anhalt specializes in helping individuals, founders, and teams build emotional wellness through everyday mental fitness practices.

in this episode, we dive deep into what it actually means to be emotionally fit—and how gen z can build better mental health at school, work, and in life.

we talk about:

what emotional fitness is and how to build it
red flags that your emotional wellness may be suffering
soft skills that boost your mental health
gen z’s readiness for the workforce
navigating imposter syndrome and taking feedback
accepting compliments and owning your strengths
how to find motivation when you’re feeling low
emotional fitness vs. emotional intelligence
therapy vs. self-help: what’s most effective?
what we all get wrong about mental health habits
why the mind-body connection really matters
how to stay consistent (without burning out)

Mentioned:

SHOP GUEST RECOMMENDATIONS: https://amzn.to/3A69GOC

About She Persisted

She Persisted is THE Gen Z mental health podcast. In each episode, Sadie brings you authentic, accessible, relatable conversations about every aspect of mental wellness. Expect evidence-based, Gen Z-approved resources, coping skills (lots of DBT), insights, and education in each piece of content you consume. She Persisted offers you a safe space to feel validated and understood in your struggle while encouraging you to take ownership of your journey and build your life worth living.

a note: this is an automated transcription so please ignore any accidental misspellings!

Sadie: [00:00:00] Welcome to She Persisted, the Gen Z Mental Health Podcast. I'm your host, Sadie Sutton. Let's get into it.

Emily: I think self-compassion is one of the most important ingredients in emotional fitness. Anything that makes a person who they are. Even things that make people annoying and frustrating and infuriating. Those things served them well at some point. Yeah. Or they wouldn't be that way.

And as we accept that about ourselves and other people, we free up space to change.

Sadie: Hello, hello, and welcome back to another episode of She Persisted. We have a repeat guest today, and I'm absolutely so excited to have her back. Dr. Emily Anhalt is on the show.

She is a clinical psychologist, emotional fitness expert, speaker, author, and the co-founder of Coa, your Gym for mental health. For the past two decades, she has been working clinically with executives, leaders, and teams, and has conducted extensive research with prominent psychologists and entrepreneurs about how leaders can improve their emotional fitness.

She has a book that has just come out.

It is called Flex Your Feelings. A link is in the show [00:01:00] notes and in preparation for this book launch, we had a conversation that really went all over. We talked about emotional fitness, imposter syndrome, emotional intelligence, how we can train our mental health,

and we debunked some pop psychology myths. This is just such an incredible conversation. Emily is absolutely the best, and you guys are going to adore this conversation and leave with so much wisdom to improve your mental fitness. And if you enjoy the episode, share on social media, send to a friend or family member, leave a review, subscribe all the things. I hope you enjoy.

So let's dive in.

Well, thank you so much for joining me on. She persisted. I'm so excited for this part too, and to have you here in person for this conversation.

It's so

Emily: nice to be back and so cool to see that the next generation is taking up mental health in a, in a completely different way.

Sadie: Yeah.

I think there really is this emphasis on mental health. There's definitely the belief that it's malleable. There's that growth mindset that was like drilled into all of Gen Z. In middle school and elementary school [00:02:00] we had the SEL classes. So I think it's a really good time to kind of instill this information, give people the tools that they can use, and hopefully they see the dividends as they transfer out of high school, college into life.

And your. Kind of creating these habits that really last a lifetime for

sure.

Okay. Amazing. Well, I wanted to start with a philosophy, , that you have, which is that who you are anywhere is who you are everywhere. And so I wanted to hear how you discovered this and also its implications for listeners because I really love this and it ties a lot into emotional fitness.

, I think that we can think of like physical health as being fairly siloed to some areas. We sometimes think that about mental health, like it only applies when we're having a breakdown or we're stressed or we're overwhelmed. , So I'm really excited to get your thoughts there.

Emily: So I think I came to understand this idea of who you are anywhere is who you are everywhere as I.

Learned more about the patterns that we repeat throughout our life. Mm-hmm. And one of the ways this became so clear is the number of times that my [00:03:00] patients would be talking to me about the dynamics that they have with their colleagues or with their boss at work.

Sadie: Yeah.

Emily: And it would be so clearly tied to the dynamics they had with their siblings and with their parents growing up.

Yeah.

the fact is we bring our whole selves with us everywhere we go. Mm-hmm. We are emotional creatures. We might wanna think, oh, work isn't really the place for feelings, but we're bringing our emotions with us to work whether we like it or not. Yeah. So the more we understand ourselves anywhere in our life, the more we'll understand ourselves everywhere in life.

And as you heal yourself in any part of who you are, you will see that ripple through your entire life.

Sadie: Yeah. Before we even get into emotional fitness and emotional intelligence and all of these different facets of this. I wanna ask you about Gen Z in particular because I, I'm probably on a very specific side of TikTok 'cause I'm very ears open around like, what are people saying about Gen Z?

Like what are, what are the topics there? But I've heard a lot of people be like, [00:04:00] they don't wanna hire Gen Z. Gen Z is more gig economy. It's less like really putting in the hours doing these full-time roles. There's definitely a different attitude around hiring Gen Z versus millennials or whatever else.

And so I'm curious what your thoughts are there, because I think a lot of this is synonymous to how people respond to their boss, whether it's setting boundaries or making requests or dealing with burnout. Like there's really a lot of messaging that like Gen Z is lazy, they don't wanna do the work, they're emotionally immature, like they're not respecting, , their boss.

And so I'm curious what your thoughts are there, if you think that's accurate, if you think it's just like a mismatch of communication styles. Do we lack emotional fitness? Like what are your thoughts

there?

Emily: So I think Gen Z was. Dealt a really tough hand. Yeah. You know, you're, we're, we're being handed all of these insane circumstances, climate change threatens mm-hmm.

Existence, period.

Yeah.

It's one of the first generations where people are making less money than their parents did. Yeah. The ideas of being able to buy a house and do all the things that our parents were [00:05:00] taught are really important, are almost impossible. Yeah. And so my feeling is that Gen Z is a generation that's saying, okay, well if sitting down and working one job for my whole life isn't gonna get me everything that I've been told is important mm-hmm.

Then I better care about what I'm doing. Yeah. I better feel passionate about my work. I better be doing something that is changing the world in some way. And I think they get a lot of shit for that, when really it makes perfect sense to me. Why would you stay at one job for your whole life when you're not even being paid enough to do the things that you feel like you're supposed to be doing?

Sadie: Yeah.

Emily: So to me, I don't think Gen Z is lazy. I think they're a meaning making generation.

Mm-hmm. I think

they want to do things that actually matter, and I think that's amazing and it just means that it gets complicated when Gen Z and millennials and boomers and everyone are in a workplace together and they all have such different values and such different compass.

Yeah. Point in the way.

Sadie: Yeah.

Emily: So to me the question is more how can we find a common ground and make sure that everyone feels seen mm-hmm. [00:06:00] And understood and that what they're doing matters.

Sadie: Yeah. I also do think there's the like vulnerability element where Gen Z doesn't have many qualms about boys and where they're at, or being really transparent with, like Taylor Swift didn't release the album yesterday.

I'm honestly in a really bad mood because of that, and I'm sure rumors are like, I'm sorry, like this has worked. Like that can't be impacting your mood. Like we put on a front here and that's not how this works. Whereas Gen Z is very vocal about these things. It's very normalized and so I'm sure that also has repercussions when it comes to perceptions of.

Gen Z and how they show up for work and not just putting on that mask and being like, everything's perfect all of the time. And it no way impacts their ability to, provide and show up in a career context.

I'm

Emily: sure like anything there's balance to be found. Yeah. You know, I think that there was the pendulum that swung one way where there was no room for any emotions and everyone had to suck it up and just do what they were supposed to do.

Yeah. And that resulted in a lot of trauma. Yeah. And a lot of problems. And then it's possible things have swung the other way where there [00:07:00] isn't a lot of sort of skills to figure out how to compartmentalize and to make sure that you are feeling your emotions, but also doing the things that you have to do.

And at some point, balance will be found. Yeah. But I'm a big fan of people being able to say yes. How they feel. Yes. And what they need.

So a hundred

Sadie: percent. ,

You've also debunked this idea that if you find a job you love, you won't work a day in your life, which I think Gen Z aspires that, right?

We want our passions to be aligned with our careers. We have like that sense of purpose. We wanna make a difference. But I also think this is an interesting philosophy, and you've talked about how this isn't necessarily the case, even if you're doing something that's really aligned with your passion and it feels like you're fulfilling that sense of purpose.

Can you speak to that a little bit?

Emily: I wanna caution people to be very wary of anything that has all or nothing thinking built into it. Yeah. This idea of, oh, just find the right job and it'll never feel like work. It'll never be hard. That's bullshit. That's just somehow life works. Yeah. Yeah. The truth is, anything that you want, anything you wanna [00:08:00] achieve, even something you're so excited and passionate about is gonna live on the other side of some struggle, on the other side of some discomfort.

Mm-hmm. So if you're doing a job you really like, then hopefully most of the time it's great and you're enjoying yourself, but some of the time they're gonna be tasks you don't really feel like doing. There's gonna be something that's harder than you thought it was going to be. You're going to fail or you're not going to progress the way that you thought that you would.

Mm-hmm.

Sadie: And my worry with this idea of find the right job, you'll never work a day in your life, is that people then think the second they come across any obstacles or struggle, that that means they're on the wrong path.

Yeah.

Emily: The truth is that life includes suffering. It always will. And I think by accepting this, we are more likely to face it with some conviction in our ability to move through it instead of this intense desire to.

Take a left turn or avoid it altogether.

Sadie: Yeah, a hundred percent. , I wanna talk about these different facets of emotional fitness. And you break this down a lot in your book. , So people want like exactly how they can improve their emotional fitness specific [00:09:00] practices they can do. But to start, what are the signs that people lack emotional fitness?

I think we more commonly now are like, that person maybe isn't the most stable or like that's a very sensitive person where they're not being super effective, but. I don't think we have this strong articulation of like there's room for growth there. We could potentially be more effective in almost the preventative work that we're doing.

And so I'm curious how this shows up in like day-to-day, subjective experiences, career relationships, all of that.

Emily: So let's first think about the difference between health and fitness. Mm-hmm. So if you think about someone who's physically healthy versus not.

Mm-hmm.

You might think they're either sick or they're Well

Sadie: yeah.

Emily: But to be physically fit is a different thing. You can be not sick and still not be fit. Yeah. A person who's fit is someone who eats healthy, sleeps enough exercises, they're actually preventing a lot of the illness. They're less likely to get sick because of the work that they're doing.

Mm-hmm.

So, similarly, emotional [00:10:00] fitness isn't about a lack of emotional disorders.

Mm-hmm. Or problems.

Yeah.

It's about. Having an ongoing practice that bolsters you against the difficult things that you're gonna face in life.

Yeah,

so a person would probably know that they don't have great emotional fitness if their relationships aren't as strong as they want them to be. Mm-hmm. If they're noticing that the feelings that they have don't feel like they match the situations that they're in, they don't have all the coping strategies they need.

If they feel like they're putting out one thing and people are perceiving them a totally different way, that's probably a sign that they need to learn how to empathize better or communicate differently, or that their self-awareness could use some work.

Sadie: Mm-hmm.

Emily: So the idea in the book is, alright, what the hell does it actually mean?

Yeah. How do I do an emotional pushup? How do I get stronger so that my life in these areas improves? Mm-hmm.

Sadie: I think that's really interesting and I think you mentioned something there that. Unless you've been through mental health challenges and you get yourself back to like, okay, I'm back to normal functioning.

I'm almost back reset at zero. And then you're like, [00:11:00] okay, but how do I thrive? Like how do I flourish? How do I build this life that I really enjoy? Not just like back zero, no longer in distress, struggling actively trying to solve these problems. And I think unless you've got to that point where you're like, this isn't sustainable, this doesn't work.

I need help. We kind of just accept our emotional vulnerability and our emotional health or emotional fitness as it is. Mm-hmm. We don't think of it as malleable. We're not like, my emotions don't match the situation, or it could be more effective. It's like, well it's not horrible, it doesn't need clinical support, so this just must be how I function.

Mm-hmm. There's not that like subclinical, almost like awareness that we could. Potentially have effective interventions that allow us to thrive and allow us to do these things more effectively. And it's not just a given that we have some amount of emotional health, and it's not something that can be impacted through things like emotional pushups and going to the mental gym and all of these different interventions.

That's such a good point.

Emily: I do think [00:12:00] we forget often as adults that if you practice something, you'll get better at it. Yeah. That you can flex your emotional muscles. Mm-hmm. And get stronger. Every single person out there can level up when it comes to their emotional fitness. Every person can improve the relationship they have to themself and to other people.

And I totally get it. If it's not broken, don't fix it kind of thing. Yeah. But just imagine what your life would feel like. If you cranked up the volume on how satisfied you feel and the relationships that you're in and in how authentic it feels to be living your life. Yeah. You know, we, we forget how important things are until we feel them.

Yeah. In fact, I'll often hear patients say, I didn't even realize till I was depressed. Until I wasn't depressed. Yeah. Yeah. So wherever your life is right now, I promise you that working on your emotional fitness will level you up in ways that might be hard to even imagine right now. Mm-hmm. But are

Sadie: so worth doing.

hundred percent. I definitely agree with that philosophy and that kind of, I. Like lived experience that [00:13:00] you don't really realize how ineffective it is until you've been in a different position. I think the same thing's absolutely true for physical health. Like if we're not sleeping well, but we have slept the same our entire lives really totally didn't know.

Could be different. Or like you see athletes with insane cardiovascular strike, you know, that's fine for them, but like that's not something I'm capable of. , And we don't have that growth mindset that yes, our capacities are different, but there's still room for improvement. And that baseline benchmark isn't something that's set in stone and unable to be changed

for the better.

We don't know what

Emily: we don't know. Yeah, and that's the beauty of this practice is you're going to realize that there are things for you to work on that you never could have even imagined before. Yeah. And there's something so profound about that. It's so exciting for me to see someone say, oh shit, I didn't realize I needed to work on this.

And now that I am, everything in my life around me is in do thing. What a cool thing that each of us can

Sadie: tap into. In your book, you talk

about soft skills, which I hadn't heard the term before. And so I'm [00:14:00] curious what those are, why we need them, how we can develop them, , and the different areas that they benefit.

And we talked about how mental health impacts all these different areas. , But I imagine there's ones that are especially related to our ability to develop our soft skills.

Emily: Yeah. So the term soft skills, I think was born in the world of tech to describe non-technical skills. Mm-hmm. So hard skills are knowing how to code that kind of thing.

And soft skills are more how to manage your emotions. Yes. So I actually hate the term soft skills because they're not soft. They're, they're very difficult and they're very important, but they are profoundly shifting mm-hmm. In the way you live your life as you develop

Sadie: these skills.

Emily: So really I would maybe say that the seven traits that I talk about in the book are the seven quote unquote soft skills that I think will change your life.

Mm-hmm.

I based these for, for those who aren't familiar with this emotional fitness stuff, it's based on research I did about 10 years ago.

I interviewed a hundred psychologists and a hundred entrepreneurs, and I asked 'em the question, [00:15:00] how would you know if you were sitting across the table from an emotionally healthy person,

Sadie: what does

Emily: that kind of person do? What did they not do? What does that feel like to be with them? And out of this research came these seven traits of emotional fitness.

The seven things that I think a emotionally healthy people are working on all the time.

Mm-hmm.

And these are seven things that at least I definitely didn't learn in school. Yeah. But I don't know anyone who couldn't use a little bit more work in all.

Of these? Yeah. Yeah. Or at least a few of them.

Sadie: Mm-hmm.

Emily: So the idea is, at the beginning of the book, you'll kind of rate yourself of where you feel like you fall in these seven traits. Yeah. And then by at the end of the book, you'll rate yourself again. And most of the time, , those ratings go up.

Sadie: Can you walk us through

the seven traits so people can be aware of like, oh, I definitely don't have that one as established as it could be.

Or like, oh, I'm totally nailing that area and feel pretty confident about my ability to operate in that domain.

For

Emily: sure. And then I'm gonna ask you what your biggest strength is in your area of growth.

Sadie: I'm

Emily: ready.

So the first one is mindfulness, which I define as [00:16:00] the ability to be, become more comfortable being uncomfortable.

Mm-hmm. So, you know, staying in the present moment is hard. We tend to move away from it. We tend to avoid the things that are uncomfortable, mindful people can deal with discomfort.

Sadie: Yeah.

Emily: The second one is curiosity, which is. Asking questions of yourself and of other people, and being able to hear feedback when people come to you with it.

Mm-hmm.

Being curious opens the door for the third trait, which is self-awareness. Mm-hmm. So understanding your emotions, your triggers, your biases, everything about you that defines who you are.

Sadie: Mm-hmm.

Emily: After self-awareness is resilience, which is the ability to bounce forward through setbacks and failures.

Sadie: Mm-hmm.

And

Emily: notice I say bounce forward and not bounce back. Yeah. Because I don't think we ever go back to being the person we were before. We went through a hard thing. And so instead of trying to get back to who you were, resilience is about taking what you've been through and using it as a springboard into a better version of yourself moving forward.

Sadie: Mm-hmm.

Emily: After resilience comes empathy. Mm-hmm. So if self-awareness is understanding of your own emotions, [00:17:00] empathy is being able to understand and feel other people's emotions. Mm-hmm. After empathy is communication, so being able to put words to your needs, your boundaries, all of that. And also being able to listen well.

Mm-hmm. And take in what is being said to you. And then finally is playfulness. Mm-hmm. And that actually might be my favorite one. I think we wildly undervalue how important play is. Yeah. And being playful is really about saying yes and mm-hmm. Meeting people in their ideas, building on those ideas, not worrying about the destination so much as the beauty and joy of the jury.

Sadie: Yeah.

Okay. I

wrote down which ones, I was like, okay, I think I got that. Definitely room for growth. I think like self-awareness and resilience piece. I think having been through a lot of mental health challenges. It'd been through all the therapy intensively. It's hard to not know kind of where your blind spots are or what keeps coming up and you're like, oh, that's still something I'm working on.

So I would say like that awareness of [00:18:00] where my strengths are, where I'm likely to get triggered, what I can do preventatively to solve for that, then I think that goes hand in hand with resilience, having to, over time establish these coping skills that allow me to be effective in these emotional situations.

And then I would say like the mindfulness and the playfulness are two things. That. I wouldn't say that I don't do them, but they definitely are things I have to be more intentional about. Mm-hmm. I'm definitely someone who is avoidance prone. Mm-hmm. I'm more of a distractor and so when it comes to like sitting with the emotions, sitting with the discomfort, I'm someone who's like, maybe later I'll come to back to that at another time.

And the playfulness as well. I think it's, it's more comfortable to have the control and the certainty. There's self-awareness and so, , I think that I tend to lean more towards like that self-awareness, resilience, problem solving versus playfulness that has happened. We'll be mindful, we'll see how it goes.

Nice. I love it. So, you know

Emily: what a

Sadie: fun thing

Emily: if your homework

Sadie: is

Emily: to play more.

Sadie: Yeah, exactly. I'm curious if there are some of these from working with clients from the [00:19:00] interviews you conducted where you think that. , Most people are lacking, or most people inherently easily pick up, like empathy or self-awareness.

Like are there areas where you're generally like the general population does not have this one nailed, or most people can function effectively? For the most part, with this trait,

Emily: I found that it really varies. Yeah. What you're strong in, what you need to work on can look so different from person to person, I will say.

And there's plenty of research to support that. Almost every person thinks they're more self-aware than they actually are. Yeah. Because you don't know what you don't know. Yeah. Yeah. You know, when I, when I do my talks, I will do a poll where I ask everyone to say, do you think you're generally more self-aware, the same or less self-aware than the average person?

And 95% of people say they're more self-aware. Yes,

a hundred

percent. It's like, well you can't all be more than average. Yeah. Right. And so there's something I think really freeing about telling yourself, you know, it's okay that I don't know everything yet.

Sadie: Mm-hmm.

Emily: And. In science, one of the things you [00:20:00] realize is the more you know, the more you realize you don't know.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. So similar, you know, I've been in therapy. Since I started grad school. Yeah. And I think of myself as a self-aware individual. Yeah. And then I'll leave a session and be like, holy shit. I was at my own mind with something I had no idea was completely standing in the way of the things that I want.

Yeah. In life. Yeah. So that's one that I would say, no matter how self-aware anyone out there thinks they are, there's probably still more. I set you up

Sadie: perfectly for that one. Yeah.

I love it. Oh my goodness. , I wanna talk about imposter syndrome and I think this will also tie in to a little bit of like shame and play because those two things are really correlated.

I love BNE Brown's work there and I think this is something that very, like TPE Type a high achievers, we struggle to have these things that we do for fun that serve no purpose. We struggle too, kind of let go and not feel shame around these things. And similarly, we at the same time feel imposter syndrome and shame about, , the context that we're in.

And so I think this is also really related to our emotional fitness [00:21:00] because a lot of shame is how we are interpreting events. There's that level of, I think, self-awareness at play. Our ability to be resilient when those emotions arise or when those thoughts are something that pop up. And so I'm curious what your thoughts are there and how emotional fitness ties into imposter syndrome because it's such a buzzword and.

People are always talking about how they feel imposter syndrome in, in some context, and it's, painful. People want to move past that and feel comfortable and confident, whether it's in an educational setting or a career setting.

Emily: For sure. I mean, imposter syndrome's really common. There's actually something a little bit healthy about imposter syndrome.

So what we were just talking about the idea of you don't know what you don't know. Yeah. Have you heard of the Dunning Kruger syndrome? Yes. Yes. Right. It's like if you don't know a lot about something you think you do. Yeah. Because you don't realize the scope of the problem. In my mind, imposter syndrome is almost the opposite of that.

Mm-hmm. It's, it's almost like you see that the scope is so big. Yeah. That you rate yourself too low. Mm-hmm. On how much you actually know. So there's [00:22:00] something cool I think about staying. Hey, what? What don't I know? where could I be challenging myself, et cetera. Yeah. The problem comes when we have such an unrealistic idea of how we're seen in the world.

Sadie: Yeah.

Emily: When I talk about imposter syndrome, I talk about the deeper psychological truth of it, which is imposter syndrome is essentially that if your inner voice doesn't match what people are saying to you. That's really uncomfortable. So if in your own mind you think, I'm not smart enough, I'm not good enough, or I shouldn't be here, I don't deserve this job or whatever.

Yeah. And then someone comes to you and says, you're doing so great at this job. You're so smart. I think you're so great.

Sadie: Yeah.

Emily: Those two things not matching is so uncomfortable that we would almost rather convince ourself that other people are lying than to think, Hmm, maybe this voice I have inside isn't right.

Sadie: Yeah.

Emily: And that's because we formed that voice very young in life and it served us at some [00:23:00] point. And so it's uncomfortable to change it. So I think it ties into emotional fitness because the more you learn about yourself and the stronger your relationship with yourself gets, the less you're going to reject what other people think about you when it's a positive thing.

Yeah. And the more you're gonna be able to hold a strong core of yourself when you get negative feedback. Mm-hmm. If that makes sense.

Sadie: Yeah. I also definitely think there's something to be said for. Awareness of what your strengths are, even if it's like a drop in the ocean compared to the field you're working in.

Being able to say, I don't know, the vast majority of this, there are all these people that have so much more insight, but in this like tiny area, I can provide some value. And being able to show up in that respect, I think can be really effective, especially in work settings. Even though it does kind of go against that internal need of, like, I don't wanna be rejected, like if I reject myself first, what if I just set up for failure?

And so it's not a surprise when I'm doing this thing that I'm really passionate about. It's [00:24:00] aligned with my purpose, which we talked about a lot of people are now aiming and striving to do, and the prospect of rejection there. And. Others not sharing your belief that like, this is what I wanna do and I'm good at it and this matters in my life is really daunting and really scary.

For sure. It is one

Emily: of, one of the little exercises I'll tell people to do when they feel this is start a self-esteem file or a smile file or a wind bin, whatever you want call it. Whether it's a digital folder on your desktop or an actual box in your room. Mm-hmm. And every single time you get positive feedback of any kind, anytime your sibling, your boss, your colleague, your friend, your kid, anyone in your life mm-hmm.

Says something that they love about you or that you do well write it down and put it in that folder.

Yeah. And then

when you're feeling crappy about yourself, or the imposter syndrome kind of peaks out, go through that file.

Mm-hmm.

I've been doing this for 10 years and it's very compelling to see 10 years of Jada Yeah.

That have made difference, made a difference in people's lives. So the problem is we tend to [00:25:00] obsess about negative feedback. Yeah. And let positive feedback fly right by us. Yeah. So the goal here is. Collect that positive feedback and don't let it escape you completely. Yeah.

Sadie: And if you're like looking for a new job or for a promotion, that's like the best thing you can do is be like, this person said I was killing it at this stop.

That's true. This is a strength. It's like not only internally super effective, but there's a lot of external

purposes as well. So I'd ask

Emily: you a question, which is, what is one strength that you didn't know you had until someone pointed it out to you? That's a good question.

Sadie: I feel like again, what you said about our almost internal dialogue about how we show up in the world and how. Others describe how we show up in the world when that doesn't match. It's confusing. And so I know that I try like very hard to be compassionate and understanding and kind towards others, but I know I'm trying and putting in that effort and being very like consciously aware of it.

Like I'm taking these [00:26:00] steps. This is a behavior that's being engaged in. And so when I hear friends be like, you are like one of the most thoughtful people and you're such a great friend, having that synonymous with identity versus behaviors that are taking place or like the effort that I know I'm intentionally putting into this, it just, just naturally happen.

I think that's almost interesting to see and be like, okay, that strength, they perceive that. Mm-hmm. Like I'm trying hard at this and this is something I work at. And so I think that's a, a cool way where like it almost mismatches and there's almost that discomfort of like, are you sure? Like, I don't know.

Everyone doesn't perceive it that way, but it also is, again, it's interesting to see when people can highlight those strengths that you maybe haven't internalized as something that's like a win and can go on that wind bin.

Emily: It's so nice to be validated. Yeah. I think this is another thing that Gen Z gets a lot of shit for is like, oh, we, you know, they want trophies and recognition all the time.

It's like we all want recognition. Yeah. We all need recognition. Yeah. Each of us needs to feel like what we're doing means something. Mm-hmm. Why would we slave away [00:27:00] at a job if it's not working or if nobody wants us to be doing what we're doing. Yeah. So I'm actually a big fan of ask for the recognition that you need.

Mm-hmm. You know, a lot of people are bad at accepting compliments. Yeah. And I say, not only should you accept a compliment, but ask for more information. Yeah. If someone says, gives you a negative piece of feedback, you'd probably say, oh, well, can you gimme some examples? Or, what do you mean? But when someone gives us positive feedback, why don't we say, thank you so much?

Like, tell me more. Like, when did you see that show up? Or what does that feel like for you? I don't think there's anything wrong with needing to feel like what we're doing is working.

Sadie: What is the, like emotional pushup you recommend people do if they are averse to compliments

Good

Emily: question.

i'd say it's mindfulness for a lot of people. So if getting compliments makes you uncomfortable Yeah. To avoid that discomfort, you're gonna turn away from it.

Sadie: Yeah.

Emily: When instead, just take a slow breath and say to yourself, okay, I know this might not feel good to just take this, but actually I'm doing everyone a service by being gracious and I deserve this compliment.

[00:28:00] You know, I think that when we are convinced people are bullshitting us, we're essentially saying, it's more likely that you would lie to me than it is that I am. Wonderful. In the way that you're saying I am. Yeah. Why would the people in your life behind you Yeah. Take it in and let yourself have it.

Sadie: Yeah. What about for people who struggle to accept feedback they're not doing that example of, can you tell me a little bit more? Mm-hmm. Is there a situation that I can tie to this so I can really be aware of what the behavior was or the interaction and reflect on that? For people that don't respond well to feedback or criticism, this comes up a lot in workplaces because it can be so direct and formal and objective, even though it feels very subjective and personal.

What is that related to emotional fitness wise, and what do you recommend that people do to combat that? Taking in feedback is hard. Yeah.

Emily: You know, hearing that you're not doing something well, or that people didn't like what you put out there, that sucks. You know? Yeah. It completely makes sense that your first instinct would be to push it away or to deny it, or [00:29:00] to be defensive.

Yeah. You know, whatever. But this is one of those muscles where you can get better at taking in feedback. So the next time you get a piece of feedback, give yourself a little space. Say, that's interesting. Give me 10 minutes to think about that, and then let's talk about it.

Sadie: Mm-hmm. And

Emily: in that 10 minutes, tune into yourself.

What's happening? What is your body telling you? What are you worried about? You know, if they said, oh, the project you turned in didn't really work, does it feel like they're saying you suck at your job? Yeah. Because that's not what they said. Yeah. And so you have to distinguish that and then think about the fact that they trusted you to give you this feedback, which says something about you.

Yeah. In a positive way. And then go back to them and say, I'm really gonna think about that. Thank you for being willing to share that with me.

Sadie: Mm-hmm.

Emily: So the pushup that I would tell people who aren't so great at taking in feedback is lean into the discomfort and send a text message to someone in your life once a week or once a month that says, Hey, I'm working on my emotional fitness.

And in particular, I wanna get better at [00:30:00] taking in feedback. So I would love it if you would tell me one thing that I'm doing well mm-hmm. In our relationship and one thing that I could do 10% better.

Sadie: Mm-hmm.

Emily: And I think 10% better is nice because you're not saying like, what should I completely change about myself?

Yeah. It's more just how can I level up a little bit?

Sadie: Yeah.

Emily: And then when you get the message back. Look at it, check in with yourself. How do you feel about it? Thank them for it. Offer a return favor. Mm-hmm. If they want it. And the more you do this, the less it will feel really uncomfortable to get feedback.

Yeah.

Sadie: I have a funny anecdote of like the reverse of this, which was that when I was in treatment, I was in a therapy boarding school for 14 months and we went heavy on the feedback like three times a week. We had like circles with all the girls and there was always the opportunity for feedback.

Sometimes it was bullying as feedback, , but it was like very direct. You're just not being authentic or like, , this tour wasn't done, like how the rest of people have been doing it. Can you work on that? And being able to be open and accepting to that, sit with it, not respond, , with something like after [00:31:00] 14 months you can do.

And so. I was talking to one of my friends and she was like, I will frequently go up to my boyfriend and be like, what's the feedback? Like, do you have any thoughts? How can I improve? And I'd be like, this isn't a, this is a relationship, not a quarterly review. Like, I will come to you if something's not going right.

She's like, but is there any feedback? Is there any room for growth? And so it's really funny when we really emphasize these areas and we almost are like overcorrecting Mm. , And making like all the effort to make sure we're showing up in that way. , And I just thought that was hilarious. 'cause most people don't have that problem of asking for too

much.

Right.

Emily: For sure. Although I think that's cool. Like Yeah. And my relationships, I will every once in a while say, Hey, let's check in. How are we doing? How are we feeling? What could we do better? How we show up for each other in a, in a better way.

Sadie: Yeah.

Emily: So I'm here for that. But the other thing I remember is.

Any feedback a person gives to you is at least partly to do with them. Yeah. And not you.

Sadie: Mm-hmm.

Emily: You know, every relationship between two people is co-created by both of those people. Mm-hmm.

Sadie: And

Emily: when someone says, here's a way that I see [00:32:00] you. Well, that's partially because of their experience.

Sadie: Yeah.

Emily: So emotional fitness is being able to check in with yourself and say, how much of this is actually mine?

Mm-hmm. What responsibility do I hold here? In what ways could I show up better, which will allow them to show up better? And in what ways do I have to just be okay with the fact that I can't fix anyone else? Yeah. And that I might not be able to. Be what this other person needs me to be in this moment.

Sadie: Yeah. I think the other piece of feedback that's challenging, which you mentioned is like the emotional intensity for some people and taking that 10 minutes to like step back, calm down, be more logical. I think this is one of those areas we talked about at the beginning, which a lot of people have room for growth because I'm like, I'm very sensitive and learning those skills to respond more effectively to my emotions know what my emotional bandwidth is, was so freeing because it's not like your emotions are controlling you.

Obviously we can't control our emotions, but it's more I can work with them and I understand what to expect and what skills work and how to communicate my limits. And so I'm curious what your advice is for people [00:33:00] that have that experience where the emotional intensity maybe doesn't fit the situation.

It's valid, but it's not justified. Mm-hmm. And rather than just being like, okay, I'm super sensitive. Anytime I get feedback, I'm gonna start crying. That's just a given. Or any other context that emotional intensity can show up, what are some ways that people can work on that? Yeah.

Know I

Emily: tell this story in the book that when I first started going to therapy, I would cry all the time.

Yeah. Like I'd tear up anytime I was talking about anything.

Yeah.

And it felt really frustrating 'cause I'd be like, I'm not actually sad about this. Don't worry about this. I'm not, I don't. It is the emotions it, I'm upset. It's okay. Yeah. And eventually my therapist was like, maybe you're not super upset about this, but obviously something is trying to be seen here.

Yeah. So what if we just let you feel what you need to feel? Mm-hmm. So if you feel like you're hypersensitive. It probably means that there's something very valid that needs to be understood, and I think therapy is a really amazing place to understand that.

Sadie: Mm-hmm.

Emily: The other thing I would say is never underestimate the incredible power of a few slow, deep [00:34:00] breaths.

Yeah.

You know, I agree that we can't control our emotions all the time, but when I'm feeling overwhelmed, I do have more control over it than I thought by just pausing and taking a few deep breaths and calming my nervous system down. Because it's one thing when you feel sad about something or upset about something, it's another thing when your body's in fight or flight mode and it's telling you that something is dangerous when it's not.

Sadie: Yeah.

Emily: I think by calming those systems, we can look at things a little bit more logically. This actually makes me think of one of my least favorite phrases out there is always trust your gut.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Everyone always says, always trust your gut no matter what your gut knows. But the truth is that your gut instinct was formed as much around trauma as it was around truth.

Sadie: Yeah.

Emily: So for example, if you were bit by a dog as a kid, your gut instinct around all dogs might be that they're dangerous. Mm-hmm. But they're not all dangerous. So it's our responsibility to be emotionally fit in a way that we know are gut [00:35:00] instincts pointing us toward what we want in life, or are they just trying to avoid danger in a way that might not actually be serving us?

Mm-hmm. ,

Sadie: What is the, like difference between emotional

intelligence and emotional fitness and what your thoughts are. There are synonymous. Are people that are emotionally intelligent also really emotionally fit? Are these skills you work on separately? Can you explain the two?

So I

Emily: think there is a difference in the sense that emotional fitness is the ongoing, proactive practice of becoming more emotionally intelligent.

Okay. You know, so emotional fitness is a practice. Mm-hmm. Emotional intelligence is a state that

Yeah.

You have, and the other thing about emotional intelligence is there's difference between knowing and being able to do something about that knowing. Mm-hmm. So you can be really emotionally intelligent and say, oh, I know exactly what I need to change in my life.

That's different than actually being able to change it.

Sadie: Yeah.

Emily: work with plenty of people who are like, I did the thing again, even though I know I shouldn't do it and I recognize it right in [00:36:00] front of my eyes, but here I am doing it. So you can be super emotionally intelligent, but not necessarily feel like you have the emotional fitness to make change mm-hmm.

In your life. Mm-hmm. So it's an ongoing, it's a private practice. Yes. I don't know anyone who doesn't have more work to do.

Sadie: Yeah. You talked about how therapy is a very important practice for people to dig into, struggling to receive feedback, intense emotional responses, all these areas that are like emotional fitness adjacent.

I'm curious what your thoughts are on when. People can independently work on their emotional fitness. They can almost improve these blind spots, work on these skills versus this would be helpful to work on in therapy. I need a professional to support me in this progress. And obviously you can do both, right?

Like you can be in therapy and also independently work on these other areas of emotional fitness. But for people who are listening and they're like, I'm really not sure what the line is, obviously it'll be different for everyone. What is your advice there?

Emily: I'd almost compare therapy in this sense to having a trainer.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. You can totally [00:37:00] work out without a trainer. Tons of people can, yeah. You know, your whole life without a trainer, no problem. But it's almost undeniable that if you have a trainer, your practice is probably gonna become better as a result. Not only with that trainer, but also when you're not even with them.

Because now you've learned a new way to work out. You have a better sense of your form of the things that you didn't realize you needed to work on, that kind of thing. So my feeling is that anyone who has the option to be in therapy, go do it. Just go do it. Because you're gonna learn things about yourself that you never realized.

But if therapy isn't an option for you, there are still so many ways to work on your emotional fitness. Probably the ideal thing is to be doing both at the same time.

Yeah.

Sadie: a lot of people, like you said, know what to do, but they don't do it. This is especially true for physical health and fitness.

It is like everyone, if you could solve how to get people to go to the gym, you would make billions of dollars. Yeah. How does this show up for mental health? Do you find that? It is less intensive, it's easier for people to go to the mental gym versus the physical gym. Or are we [00:38:00] applying the same principles of like having an accountability buddy?

Are we scheduling it? Are we making it fun and reinforcing? , Building a habit? What are your thoughts there about having that resilience when it comes to going to the mental gym, having that motivation, , similar to kind of our physical health?

Emily: Yeah. So I'll often say most people don't go to therapy because they don't know what to do.

Yeah. Most people go to therapy because they do know what to do, but need help understanding why they're not doing it.

Sadie: Yeah.

Emily: So just like with physical health, I know I need to exercise. I know I need to eat well, but I'm not, why am I not, why am I getting in my own way? And that's what I find a lot with mental health is most people know what they need to do.

Yeah.

But how do you do it? In what ways are you sabotaging yourself and how can you get out of your own way?

Sadie: Mm-hmm.

You know,

Emily: I have people who say, oh, I'm in these unhealthy relationships over and over again. I know that I shouldn't be. But how and why do I feel pulled toward these unhealthy relationships?

So that's the complicated work. Yeah. And that's where I think therapy can be really helpful is if you know what you need to do, but you don't seem to be doing it, there's [00:39:00] probably a really complicated and beautiful and interesting reason why. Yeah. And as you learn what that reason is, you're gonna have more power to change it.

So give yourself a little break. Mm-hmm.

I think self-compassion is one of the most important ingredients in emotional fitness. Anything that makes a person who they are. Even things that make people annoying and frustrating and infuriating. Those things served them well at some point. Yeah. Or they wouldn't be that way.

Mm-hmm.

And as we accept that about ourselves and other people, we free up space to change.

Sadie: Yeah. I'm curious as far as building momentum, that's something that's really helpful for people that are investing in their physical health. They see progress, they feel better, and then you can just continue that like reinforcement cycle.

Is there an area of emotional fitness that is helpful to start with where you would see that positive result? You feel the shift in how you're interacting with your surroundings and it's easier to stay motivated, continue putting the reps in and showing up at the [00:40:00] mengen?

Emily: that's a great question because I think mental health is a little different than visible health in that it's a little bit less measurable and concrete.

Yeah. And some of the most beautiful signs of good mental and emotional health can't really be measured. Mm-hmm. It's just a feeling. Mm-hmm. I remember when I was gonna therapy for years, I was like. So what am I doing all this for? Yeah. But then I just kind of woke up one day and I was like, oh shit. All my relationships are better than they were before.

I'm, I just feel more satisfied with my life. I seem to be making better choices. Mm-hmm. Healthier people just seem to be appearing around me. Yeah. I'm not really sure when this happened. So there is this element of trust you have to have. But I would say when it comes to emotional fitness, the reason mindfulness is first is that anything you're gonna do is gonna be uncomfortable.

Mm-hmm.

Sadie: So getting better at tolerating discomfort is really important, and that is kind of measurable. So I tell someone, think of something that makes you a little uncomfortable, like saying no, having a good boundary with someone, or, , maybe something that makes you uncomfortable [00:41:00] is not being on your phone all the time, or maybe you're uncomfortable apologizing, whatever it is, and practice leaning toward that discomfort and practice it over and over again until it doesn't make you as uncomfortable.

Emily: And that's pretty profound if when you can see, oh, I used to have so much trouble saying no, and now I still don't love it, but I just said no to something.

Sadie: Yeah.

Emily: That's a sign that you're becoming more emotionally fit and the better you are at that, the easier all of the risk of the traits will be to work on.

Sadie: Yeah. Another question about the process of doing our emotional pushups, investing in these different areas of fitness, we talked about saying no, setting a boundary, giving feedback, getting feedback. These are more. Behavioral things. I know like for me, a big mental health behavior that helps my emotional fitness is getting enough sleep.

Mm-hmm. It's like not necessary, totally a hundred percent emotional, but it has a direct impact on my emotional vulnerability. And so I'm curious, when we talk about emotional fitness, how much of this is truly [00:42:00] internal of like, how. How am I feeling? How am I thinking about this versus engaging in these behaviors that in turn impact our thoughts and our emotions?

Well,

Emily: first of all, mind body connection is so real. I'm glad that you mentioned that. I'll have people come in and say, oh, I'm really struggling. I'm depressed, I'm sad. And then I'll find out that they only sleep four hours a night, that they eat junk food and that they don't move their body.

Yeah.

It's

Sadie: like, ,

Emily: makes sense.

Right? Yeah. I know it's hard to exercise when you feel down, but these things really affect each other. Mm-hmm. And working on your physical health will improve your mental health and vice versa.

Sadie: Yeah.

Emily: So I think that's really important. Yeah. But it sounds like you're asking is there a non-behavioral aspect to

Sadie: emotional health?

Yeah. Like for people who are like,

okay, I'm going to the. Mental gym. I'm doing my mental pushups. I'm working on my emotional fitness. I'm curious, like when I initially think about that, I'm like, you're just thinking through it like you're telling yourself, okay, how can I be more mindful? How much distress am I experiencing?

And I [00:43:00] think the behaviors are also very aligned with improving your emotional fitness. And so it can be hard to kind of synthesize those two and be like, these behaviors that maybe are more related to like my relationships or my career or my academics also are impacting our emotional fitness. And conversely, really sitting with those thoughts and really paying attention to those emotional experiences.

Like there's just a lot of different facets to what emotional fitness means for each person.

Emily: For sure. I think you're right. It's the actions and behaviors, and it's also just the intangible things. It's being able to sit still with yourself. It's. You know, being as kind to yourself as you are to your best friend.

Mm-hmm. You know, if you are treating anyone in your life better than you're treating yourself, you have work to do.

Sadie: Yeah.

Emily: You know, like you, as much as anyone else are worthy of your own love and kindness. Mm-hmm. So, I agree with you. There's plenty of behaviors to do, but at the end of the day, sometimes it's just looking inward and [00:44:00] feeling proud of how far you've come and you know, recognizing your gains and trusting that you're gonna keep moving toward where you wanna go.

Sadie: Yeah. And I think for a lot of people, if you don't have that internal piece in check, the behaviors aren't possible to do. Totally. Like, it's just you can't get

yourself to do those things. If you don't think you're worthy

Emily: of getting better, you're gonna fight against yourself to get better. Yeah. So that's really important.

Sadie: I would love to talk about almost mentally training too hard. We can burn out physically. We can injure ourselves. Is there too much like investment in our emotional fitness? Can we burn out? Can we feel really stressed? , Do we have a bandwidth for how much we can try and improve our emotional fitness in like a given period of time?

For sure.

Emily: I, I think there is such a thing as hyper fixating on your own self and mental health. You know, if the only thing you ever read are self-help books and the only thing you're ever thinking about is how to get better and you know, you also have to just get out there and live life. Yeah. And feel joy and let yourself off the hook a little bit, [00:45:00] for sure.

Mm-hmm. And then while self-awareness is really important and we have to be thinking about who we are, et cetera, I also think some just trust in ourselves and Yeah. You know, all of that is really important. One question I get a lot is people will say. You know, I see that one of your treats is empathy, but is there such a thing as being too empathetic?

Sadie: Mm-hmm.

Emily: You know, I, I empathize with everyone and, and it's really overwhelming. My response to that is most people who think that they're too empathetic actually just don't have enough boundaries.

my job is literally to empathize with people. Yeah. But my job is also full of boundaries. There's a reason why therapists aren't friends with their patients and why the session starts on time and ends on time. Yeah. And that we meet in the same place all the time.

Those boundaries are in place so that I can be really deeply empathetic with the person in that hour. Mm-hmm. Similarly, if you find yourself. Feeling like you have too many feelings for everyone else and not enough for yourself. Instead of trying to have less for everyone else, just build boundaries around [00:46:00] it so that that empathy is flowing to yourself first.

You know, classic airplane theory. Yeah. You have to put your own mask on first.

Sadie: Yeah. The last that I wanna ask you about is what probably a lot of people are experiencing after listening to this conversation. It's like, okay, I should be more emotionally fit. I should have more emotional intelligence. I should be going to the mental gym.

And you've talked about on your social media, and I'm sure you talked about it in the book as well, why we shouldn't be shoulding ourselves, why we shouldn't be putting all this pressure around all these things that we, we should do. And so I'm curious if you can speak to that. I think after listening to this, we have a little self-awareness of like where our blind spots are, where there's room for growth, and how do you not fall into that trap?

For sure. So I, I often say stop shitting all over yourself. You know, when you say I should be better at my job, or I should be prettier, or I should have worked last night instead of watching tv. That mindset isn't super helpful because if you feel like you should have done something already, then it feels like you couldn't do it now.

Yeah. You

Emily: have to leave space for the idea that that [00:47:00] change is still possible. So I recommend that when you say should to yourself, try again and replace Should and should have. With could and could have.

Sadie: Mm-hmm.

Emily: instead of saying, oh, I should have a better job, say, well, I could have a better job if I took these kinds of actions and really focused on it.

Sadie: Yeah. Instead

Emily: of saying, I should have worked last night instead of watching tv, you might say, okay, well I could have worked last night, but I decided to watch TV because I needed rest today. I'll work instead.

Sadie: Yeah.

Emily: And just this mindset shift puts you in a place to say, alright, well it hasn't happened yet, but that doesn't mean it can't happen now.

Sadie: Yeah. I love that. And I think it's also helpful with comparison to others. I do that a lot where I'm like, I wish I had the thing, or I wish I was in that position or. I wish I had that opportunity. And then I think about the could and what that person did to get there. And I'm like, do I wanna take 6,000 math classes?

Like, totally do I wanna spend all this time in this class? No. That would be my worst nightmare. And in fact, that probably won't happen. It could happen, but it [00:48:00] won't because I don't want to do that thing and that wouldn't be enjoyable for me. And that is really freeing to be like, okay, there's that emotional experience.

Like, is that something that I really want? I could do it if I really wanted

to, but I just don't

Emily: For sure. And the should will keep you from doing it when you do want to. Like the example I give is, you know, I, I started yoga not that long ago, and I remember this beautiful, incredible yogi woman in front of me, just, you know, mastering every post.

Yeah. And I spent the whole class comparing myself to her and feeling really crappy and being like, oh, I should be better at this and I'm never gonna be as good as her. And afterwards I realized. I just completely cheated myself out of an opportunity to get a little better. Yeah. To take one step closer to her because instead of focusing on my practice in that class, I was comparing myself.

Mm-hmm. And so if you, you know, in the workplace, if you're comparing yourself to everyone else, that's time you could spend using them as motivation. I. To move toward that place.

Sadie: Yeah. Yeah.

Well, if people want to get your book follow along on social [00:49:00] media, all of the things, where can they do that?

Emily: Absolutely. I would love to connect with your community and can I just say, you are an absolutely lovely host. Thank you. And you give you for the next generation. So my book is called Flex Your Feelings, train Your Brain to Develop the Seven Traits of Emotional Fitness, and you can get anywhere that you buy books, wherever that might be.

And on social media, my handle is at D RM Emily Anhalt, D-R-E-M-I-L-Y-A-N-H-A-L-T. I'd love to connect with people on any platform and thank you so much for having me. You are a delight. Of

Sadie: course. Thank you.

And I'll put all those in the show notes. Okay, great.

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