243. being lonely in your 20s is fixable (featuring dr. jeffrey hall)

Dec 21

listen to this episode:

want to know why i started this podcast in the first place?! there’s a reason why i care so deeply about mental health, and why i believe so strongly that is it possible to be lonely even if you’re more social than ever?! today’s guest is dr. jeffrey hall— the department chair and professor of communication studies at the university of kansas, where he researches how to elevate positive online experiences through meaningful social interaction and relationships. his book relating through technology was featured in the wall street journal, the new york times, the washington post, and cnn.

in this episode, we discuss why our generation can feel so lonely– especially after graduating college– and how we can actually start to improve our connections. by the end of this episode, you’ll know how to use psychology to be more connected than ever, even through the chaos of your 20s.

we talk about:

if gen z really is the loneliest generation
why your 20s can feel so lonely (even if you have lots of friends!)
how social media makes us feel more (and less!) connected to our friends
maintaining long distance relationships + friendships in your 20s
social media algorithms + how they affect our relationships
using social media to make your relationships better
negative stereotypes about gen z in friendships + relationships
the truth behind the male loneliness epidemic
what to do if your friend never initiates plans
advice for post-grads looking to make more friends
+ so much more!

mentioned:

SHOP GUEST RECOMMENDATIONS: https://amzn.to/3A69GOC

About She Persisted

She Persisted is THE Gen Z mental health podcast. In each episode, Sadie brings you authentic, accessible, relatable conversations about every aspect of mental wellness. Expect evidence-based, Gen Z-approved resources, coping skills (lots of DBT), insights, and education in each piece of content you consume. She Persisted offers you a safe space to feel validated and understood in your struggle while encouraging you to take ownership of your journey and build your life worth living.

a note: this is an automated transcription so please ignore any accidental misspellings!

[00:00:00]

Sadie: There's a lot of headlines, there's a lot of misinformation. Is Gen Z the most lonely generation ever? We're hearing so much about like Gen Z's not dating, gen Z is not going out and interacting with each other in person. Gen Z's not drinking. I wanna ask about dating and relationships for Gen Z. If you left people with one piece of advice, what do you wish people would be doing that would fundamentally improve their friendships?

Welcome to She Persisted, the Gen Z Mental Health Podcast. I'm your host, Sadie Sutton. Let's get into it.

Hello. Hello and welcome back to She Persisted Today's episode is one that I'm so excited to share with you because one of the strongest pieces of feedback I get from you guys about a topic resonating is loneliness and friendship. It's also the most frequently asked question you guys send in, And so if that resonates. If you've been feeling lonely lately, this conversation is not only gonna make you feel seen, but give you really meaningful ways to improve your relationship, feel less lonely, feel more connected, and feel [00:01:00] less out of control and overwhelmed with all of this, what we are sitting down again with Dr.

Jeffrey Hall, his research his. Pretty much gone viral within the social media podcast space. He looks at modern friendships and what is happening in these dynamics, especially for Gen Z and young adults. and when he started sharing the findings from the newest study, he thought of us, he thought of the She Persisted community and listeners.

And I am honored. I am so excited, and after going through this research and its implications for our friendships and day-to-day lives. I know you guys are going to absolutely adore this conversation and the insights he had to share because I think most of us are experiencing this really weird dialectic and dynamic where we have more people around us, more group chats, more texts, more updates, more insight into what's happening in people's lives.

But we feel more disconnected than ever. So in this episode,

we are getting real about all the headlines and misinformation when it comes to Gen Z and friendships. [00:02:00] So if you are in a new place. Post grad just went through a breakup, going through whatever new phase of life and feeling lonely and disconnected and needing some improvement in your relationships, and you've been thinking to yourself, why am I feeling lonely even if I'm not alone?

This episode is for you, so let's get into it.

Well, I'm so excited to have you back

on She Persisted,

one of my favorite all time episodes and I am constantly hearing about your research on different podcasts and on social media. It's like. One of my favorite instances of research going viral and like reaching the rest of the world is the same as that Harvard study where it was like, dogs have your personality.

And so constantly so excited. I'm like, oh my God, I know that study. I know that person. So I'm so glad to have you back to talk about your new work and new research since we last sat down.

sat down.

Jeffrey: Yeah. Well, this paper actually made me think of you. I, I thought

myself,

who of all

the podcasters

have I talked to would have probably be most locked into what it's like to [00:03:00] be a young

woman

with a college degree coping with loneliness in a new place.

I like It's Sadie. That's the one.

Sadie: I am glad that you thought of me when you were like loneliness. Sadie's the person.

Jeffrey: Good

thoughts. Good thoughts, though.

Sadie: I appreciate that. I think the, the community as well, they're in the exact same spot. And whenever I talk about ways to make friends and balance that with work or school or other responsibilities, there's always such a response of like, I didn't think about it this way, or This is exactly what I'm going through.

And so people are aware of the experience, but they're not exactly sure how to solve it or work through it. And so I'm really excited to offer them some. Super tangible ways of understanding why they're feeling this way and what they can do to feel more connected and seen and understood.

Jeffrey: Yeah,

Sadie: So I wanna start by kind of laying the foundation here

kind of where we're truly

at when it comes to Gen Z friendships and Gen Z social lives. Because there's a lot of headlines, there's a lot of [00:04:00] misinformation. And even since we last talked,

talked, I don't think there was this whole like male loneliness epidemic thing everywhere.

Which totally ties into this conversation of. Gen Z friendship. And so I'd love to understand from your perspective, is Gen Z the most lonely generation ever? Are we failing? Are we by ourselves 24 7? Like from a research perspective, where are we actually at when it comes to Gen Z's

relationships.

Jeffrey: I love the fact that you started that question. That's awesome. So let's give the big picture here. So, for a long time the kind of thinking about loneliness was that loneliness was the highest, actually two times a life.

One was

people were

young adults and at the time when they were older adults. And so older adults, loneliness and young adults, loneliness were very different. For older adults, it often had

do with

losing things

friends

and family, illness and mobility

issues,

Things that actually really had to do with what it meant in the process of aging and getting cords in your life for young adults.

There was always this understanding that young adulthood is filled with lots of change, a lot of instability, a lot of challenges about [00:05:00] relationships, and so this was kind of well known. So as kind of arguments and discussions about the Loneliness, epidemic have come out, what people have been saying is,

well,

have loneliness really changed?

Like if we look at all these different groups and where they're at, is it the same as it has been before? For, and the one thing that's kind of come out is that for young adults, it does seem to be the case that young adults are experiencing more loneliness in the past. So they have had some increases to that.

Now, why that's the case or not is kind of where the

start to put together.

The

other thing that's happens at

same time, and this is I find really fascinating, is that young adulthood is actually marked by more friends,

More social

opportunity, more free time, more time dedicated to relationships outside your home.

So meaning not your family of origin, not your kids, like people who you would imagine, you know, young adults spend time with, which is one another. , In both kind of onic and platonic settings, but very

much in

this idea of kind of like your, group of people that you hang out with Your clique, your tribe, however you wanna

define it.

what's strange is how is it possible that you have simultaneously more [00:06:00] loneliness and more social connection at the same time for

a particular time of

life? And so the question that we really tribe to draw attention to in this paper was.

was,

it possible that these two things are not independent?

That it's not the case. That by experiencing loneliness, you

you aren't also experiencing a great deal of connection

and friendship in your life?

What's

really cool about this paper is that it's, I think one of the very

studies,

at least that I know of, that measures both things

in the

same study to say these things indeed can co-occur and do co-occur for a lot of young adults.

Sadie: And

I'm curious if this is something that has been. Documented before, maybe in like different contexts or different relationship dynamics. I imagine with certain mental health challenges, this is a lot more present if you don't feel like people are understanding what you're navigating

right? Or like different masks we put on at work versus at home.

Like I, I imagine that feeling of. Interacting but not feeling seen isn't new. And so

I'm curious if this is like something that you've [00:07:00] seen parallels with in other areas of

relationships.

Jeffrey: Yeah, I mean, I

what

you're describing is one possibility. So there, there are kind of two possibilities that are going on as an explanation of what we

found in our data. One possibility, as you say,

might be that young adults are craving Being known, a feeling of really, truly feeling seen and understood in their lives that they're not getting as much now as that they have gotten in the past. That's one possibility, and that possibility could be explained by different sort of societal factors.

One thing could be that perhaps I think young people today, certainly my students that I see are so much more alert and tuned in to the kind of things you talked about. They listen to podcasts, social media talks about issues around loneliness. As you mentioned, the

male loneliness epidemic comes to their attention.

So there's lots and lots of information that it just may be more aware

that

there's a difference between being social and being seen and heard and understood. The other hypothesis, which is what the paper that we wrote embraces a bit more is the idea that actually young adulthood has a longer period of time than ever before of [00:08:00] instability.

We have more expectations of young people moving from place to place, losing in a friendship network and starting all over again. , Young people are in a position now where they're putting off, first marriage now till after 30 for men and 29 for women, first child later into the future. You can look at this also from the backdrop of being able to affordability crisis related to not being able

afford

housing or buy a home.

So what's interesting is, is that. All of those things, mark, what it means for young adults to feel like they finally have settled. They have found their purpose in life. They know what they're doing. They've made the major accomplishments, and all of those things tend to be huge factors at reducing loneliness.

It's like when you check those major sort of life milestones off studies would say that loneliness goes down significantly in each one of those things.

Sadie: I

think what's so fascinating about you guys discovering this like

unpredictability element

in friendships is that when I logically think about. Friendship in 2025 and 2026. [00:09:00] I think about how predictable some elements of friendship is. Like I can contact anyone that I've ever interacted with. I can literally get on the phone with any friend in any part of

world,

understand what they're doing and where

there

are, like, there is this pseudo unpredictability that has never existed

you think 50 years ago. Is your friend home?

totally pick up

the landline? Do you even know their number? Do you have a landline? Are they gonna be at school? Like, there's all these

things have

Jeffrey: right.

Sadie: more predictable, and yet you're talking about this phenomenon of people feeling less stable Like having less confidence in those friendships.

Why do you think that that is, in addition to these milestones being pushed back?

Jeffrey: That's great question. Well, the, the answer is, is that these two things are happening at the same time, I think. So if you think about this idea of what connectivity brings us, so that social media connectivity, texting, group chats, all these different things you mentioned, not to mention, of course, the ease of using FaceTime

any,

any other mechanism having [00:10:00] what really looks like kind of a face-to-face interaction.

All these technologies bring us the possibility of connection at any moment, at any time. But what we know when we study that is actually, that's not what people do. Like it's, that's generally speaking. People are not great at keeping in touch. People often feel like it's weird to, to reach out to people.

So if you don't already have an existing routine with a friend, a lot of people are like, well, I. I don't think they really want to hear from me or, you know, maybe they would be strange or

kind

of lost, we've come different directions. We're not sharing the same things. What would we, some people go, I don't even know what we would talk about.

Yeah. So the idea of having the catch

conversation

feels to them like something that might be, like a burden

placing

on another person rather than an invitation to keep the relationship intact. So all those technologies have the potential to do those things,

people

actually do them or not, and not so much.

Instead, what we know is that a lot of actually mobile and social media use maps onto our existing relationships. The people who see each other face to face actually also talk to each other through social media more often, which is weird. You'd think, well, wouldn't you [00:11:00] reserve these technological channels for reaching out to your long distance friends?

Not necessarily. So what's curious is you're seeing them less face to face, long distance for sure. But you're also communicating them less than the people who you see face to face all the time, because you like to kind of weave all the communication that you have with somebody when you see them in daily life.

So what's super difficult about this is that the society that we have built have created more incumbency on the individual to make all those connections happen because society itself is created in such a way where it's harder and harder to kinda have that sense of routine face-to-face contact with the people around

us.

Sadie: Yeah, it's, it's funny what you're describing because I'm really lucky in this

back era,

rare that I have six coworkers who are also post backs. I'm not the only one. I'm not like the single one. It's the best, and I'm grateful for every time. I talk to anyone who's

through

this stage of research.

you're

going through academia and I share an office with these two girls, we're with each other

hours a

day and we'll text each other like [00:12:00] 35 times in the 12 hours before we get back to work like tiktoks, 10 a day referencing what

just

discussed three hours ago. I'm like, you describe this thing, you have to watch this SNL skit that depicts what you're talking about.

I don't text anyone more, and yet I'm with them in the same room. Daily, 40 hours

a week. Yeah. Like it's. don't even realize

that that's the dynamic of the relationships,

but it

is incredibly true.

Jeffrey: And, and, and what's weird is it's true

also romantic relationships too, right? So long distance partners work really, really hard to keep in touch even when they're dating from a distance.

But people who are in person still talk more and use media more than they do in their long distance. So I mean, I think what's really tricky about all of these things is that it creates this sort of. Feeling that it must be your fault, you must be doing something wrong. It's probably on you that you have not succeeded in keeping these relationships maintained.

But as one of the things I like to say in my own work and my own research is to really kind of promote to young folks like this is really normal. Like it's actually quite typical that we do not use [00:13:00] technologies to keep in touch in the way that they could be used. Yeah, it's quite typical that people are kind of lousy at keeping in touch and there's a solid percentage of people who despise having conversations on the phone.

They

will not have one. Yeah. Even if they would benefit from it or would love to hear from you, they're like, Ugh, I can't do it. I prefer texting or otherwise. Mm-hmm. So I think what really is important here is to keep in mind is that. In a society in which that tech connectivity is completely available to us.

But the changes in life are so difficult to have a sense of kind of a stable face-to-face relationships with people because of those disruptions. It creates these kind of two competing systems where you're expected to do more with systems that are incomplete while you can get less from the ones that would provide you that kind of daily nourishment of your social needs.

Sadie: Yeah, and I think there's also these like pseudo checks and balances that social media. Provides, which is a negative, which is that I feel like one way I kind

evaluate

if I've maintained a relationship is if I know what's going on in someone's life. Maybe I haven't talked to someone in

months, right?

But I saw their Instagram [00:14:00] story.

So if someone asks me about them or if I'm thinking, I'm like, oh, I know what's going on with them. So even if there hasn't been any of that interaction, you're still kind of like, well, this thing that applied in in person interactions is still there. So you kind of like. Explain a way, and you don't have as many ways of being like, okay, this relationship is truly lacking.

It needs care. I need to check in on them because we do get those updates, even if there's no interaction required.

Jeffrey: Yeah, I actually called this something that's called social snacking. So the concept of social snacking has been around for a long time, and it used to be when people, let's say you, you printed out a picture of your, friends or your romantic partner or your family, and you'd take that with you where you go, or you had like old

letters

or cards that you would keep like in a file drawer and you reminisce

about that.

It.

So social snacking was this idea is when someone was not with you, you would reflect on them and, and see them even if they weren't there. Well, media obviously transformed that dramatically. Now you can have, you know, a screen with this picture. You

can have a picture

on there anytime that they send a text. Of course, the [00:15:00] social media content and all of those things. We do

know that

that level, small snacks constantly make us feel a little more assured, a little more having company. But they're all one way. If, let's say that you and I

friends

and I see the great things that are happening for you, I might know about them, but you don't know that.

I know. You don't know that. I even maybe had a really, you know, I told another friend as a

friend of ours,

Sadie's been doing awesome. Did you see the such and

happened?

We talked, but you don't know. Because you didn't get communicated with. Yeah, so what unfortunately happens with a lot of the social snacking possibilities of social media is that it does not inspire or tends not to inspire the sort of check-in, checkup, follow-up conversations that we really know to be meaningful for creating kind of a stronger sense of your need to belong being met.

Sadie: Yeah,

And it's funny what you mentioned there, because I feel like I have a toxic trait with the opposite, where I'll even be like, to my mom, I'll be like, did you see my

Instagram

story? And she's like, no, how do I find that? And I'm like, no. Like I posted something about the podcast, did you see the video? I edit. She's like, did you send [00:16:00] that? And so there's this

expectancy that the social snacking was reciprocated. Like I feel like I'm putting something out there. Why aren't my closest friends and family keeping tabs on that when that's so unrealistic

of an expectation

to have.

Jeffrey: One of my favorite books on the topic is, behind their screens.

it to everybody of, in your viewers. Carrie James, and then also Emily Weinstein, both from Harvard University. I

Sadie: love

Emily. We did an appearance together in New York a number of months ago, and she's just the greatest. That's

of our other most popular

episodes is us talking about social media. People loved

Jeffrey: Yeah, and if Emily listens to this one, I'll say that, you know, when, when she and I talked at Harvard about how lonely it feels to be at Harvard, then I wanna thank her again. Yes.

Sadie: For

Jeffrey: that conversation, it was

really reassuring. But,

in their

book,

they interview a lot of young adolescents and one of the stories they tell from those interviews is young, adolescents going behind the scenes to try to promote their own social media content.

So they're,

they're,

they're working the behind the scenes sort of thing [00:17:00] to make their social media contact pop more. And I thought, man, that's

a lot of work.

Sadie: Yeah.

Jeffrey: You're like, yes, I have done that work. It's,

Sadie: it's a full-time job. , It's so funny, my, my sisters and I are like so guilty of this where I, I was on Thanksgiving vacation and I'm like not a good social media user when it comes to my actual personal account. Like I views horrible, like's horrible. This is not something that I'm really going for.

They are in high school and college and like. Super engaged in that area. Everyone they've ever talked to has in the comments like, you look amazing. Oh my

God. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like

for me, my family is like, oh my god, hi. And so I literally was like, I'm gonna put you guys as the first image to like, comment far because your friends will come into my post to say hi to you guys.

Jeffrey: See, it sounds like you have a strategy for all of it. You're making it work. Oh, it's,

Sadie: I'm getting three different age demographics in a

different to my own.

I'm

cannibalizing their views. It's going

great.

Jeffrey: Hey, this all speaks to kinda the moment we're

Sadie: in,

Jeffrey: you know, in some ways you gotta think about this in a broader sort [00:18:00] of sense, is that all of these media are, making

you a promise.

They're making you a promise of what it means to be connected, but all what it turns into is more work.

More responsibility on your own to try to manage all these relationships and to keep in touch and the climate in which that all of those sort of momentary interactions, those little sort of actions that we do are, are taken away when we don't have the opportunity to see someone, to hug them, to feel them, to be close to them.

I'm not trying to say that social media or texting or other things are not valuable in keeping in touch or be part of things 'cause they are. It's that I think that this study and kind of the

broader kind

of picture we're trying to paint is that if you're always in a state where your physical existence is mobile, you're going place to place new jobs, new opportunities, and

and your ability

to reconnect with the family and friends that you really wanna be close to or made more difficult because of those changes our

study would suggest.

This is really what brings that kind of sense of both loneliness and connection happening at the same time. Mm-hmm. You have, you feel more connected, you have good friends, you're feeling good about the friends you've got, [00:19:00] but you also feel fundamentally lonely. You feel as if there is a sense of

disconnect

that's lacking.

And we're

trying to

say in this study that part

of that

lacking this comes from the fact that instability makes you feel insecure in your place in the world.

Sadie: Yeah, and I think one piece of the social media element before we touch on the fact that the quality of relationships isn't the problem, which is so fascinating, is like we've really given the benefit of the doubt for how people are using social media, which is that interaction with their community, but.

far the way that we are using social media now is as a consumer not engaging with people that are in our life, but just blindly scrolling content from the entire world without ever having any interaction with them in the past. How is that also adding to this equation? Because these like potentially positive moments, these.

Social snacking, this amplifying in-person relationships. That is kind of not even an element of this doom scrolling that occurs, and [00:20:00] that is the largest portion

of how we're consuming media.

Jeffrey: You're making a great observation there. You know, there's a recent

study that looked

at Instagram, the portion of time spent on Instagram looking at people that you know versus just looking at reels of different content.

Oftentimes influencers, but sometimes just stuff the algorithm feeds you.

and what's seems to be the case is the amount of time on Instagram that people spend looking at content that people they know has gone down and down and down. And this is utterly predictable in an environment where Instagram and, and to a lesser degree, Facebook are trying to be competitive with TikTok as they see that as a competitor.

They're trying to make their sort of experience look closer to that. 'cause the bottom line is more use is beneficial to their advertising base in the way in which. They make money from these companies. So if we think about those kind of like those dynamics and how they work, what that means is, is that social media now versus social media in

2019,

social media certainly 2014 or 15, is a very, very different experience when it comes to being social than it was in the present.

That said, there also is good evidence that as this happens, two other sort of [00:21:00] avenues for connection open up. One is, is we're seeing a lot more people turning to group chats, small group chats. WhatsApp is a popular one. Well, in Europe particularly, it's a very popular one and parts of the world, for a lot of high school students transitioning to college.

It's Snapchat. A lot of people chuckle and like Will Snapchat was something I didn't in high school, but then they kind of secretly behind the scenes say, yeah, I still do a lot of it. 'cause I still get a lot out of being in touch with my friends. That's the

Sadie: only way I can communicate with my

See that's saying right

daily gotta be like Snapchat

siblings send them a

photo.

Jeffrey: right? So people wanna pretend they're not doing it, but they're

totally doing it. And so,

but for good reason too, they're keeping in touch with people that they love, that are at home or hard to reach. As people collapse, kind of the social media experience to something that's much more personal, that's much more social.

These are wonderful trends and they tend to actually bring a lot of the positive benefits, but you're not wrong. The consumption of TikTok and Instagram, which are the big two, and YouTube shorts are creating a very different social media experience than we had in the past, and I think those things are much more similar to what you might.

Think [00:22:00] of as like they're competitors with like Netflix or Amazon Prime. I mean, they're, they're competing for your time to spend watching entertainment media with a little bit of social content that's going on. Yeah. Compared to, I think that if a person kind of goes into those smaller closed network experiences, that's probably more similar to what a social network experience would've been like 10 years ago.

Sadie: So if you were to prescribe a few actions people can take during their social media time that have these like.

like. Relationship benefits? Maybe it's those specific groups. Maybe it's sending something to amplify the personal relationship. Maybe it's being more visible with the social snacking and like sending a response.

What are those things people can do if they're already on social media

improve their relationships while they're on

Jeffrey: Yeah. Use the reminder of the relationship to reach out in another form. Mm-hmm.

know, my

big recommendation is, is use a private channel

communicate something that someone did publicly.

So if something really special happens to friends of mine

or something that's

really important happens

people

I'm close to, I don't [00:23:00] respond on social media alone. Right. I text them

I follow up. 'cause I wanna share the joy and let them know that I saw it. Like it's important to me. 'cause if you think about the way that hearts or likes or any of those things are shown

people,

they're shown as a, an aggregate.

Yeah. And there's no way that a person can say. Well, these,

know,

100, 100 responses. I, I, you can't remember a hundred names. That's

not, that's

another, another thing human beings can do.

Sadie: Yeah. And if

Jeffrey: a person sends a personal message on a Tuesday and says, Hey, I saw that

promotion you got, or that you, you got into graduate school, how exciting.

You

know,

we gotta catch up soon. And then

follow up to catch up.

Like, this is the prescription that I offer a lot of folks, is take the opportunity that social media offers us to be aware of what's happening in other people's lives, to then go. Now that you are part of my consciousness, that you're in my awareness

what's

going on, I then will take a track towards keeping that relationship healthy

sustained through

a deeper conversation.

Sadie: Mm, yeah.

I love that. I also will try and the podcast makes it a little bit different where I like to [00:24:00] share

behind the scenes

and what's happening. But when I find something is worth sharing or I feel like I want to like

be seen

for something, and I'm doing that through putting it on social media or sending

a friend.

Kind of being aware of that and then making sure

actually communicate it

the people in my life who I do wanna feel seen and heard and appreciated by. Like, if you notice, okay, I'm posting this, I'm looking for some kind of response and acknowledgement, also doing the legwork of like, okay, I'm gonna bring this up To them on the phone or via a message.

and that's also really helpful to be annoying, like, I'd like to be seen. Please see me, I'm telling you.

Jeffrey: Well, it's, I don't know. That's actually annoying at all. You know, there's a, communication perspective that I, I'm fond of that says that people are able to sort of navigate these in between media sort of experiences, right?

Meaning there's continuity between what we talk about on the phone, on social media, and in person. Mm-hmm. That it creates this flow between them. That tends to be a sign of kind of relational solidarity. Already in closeness, like you know what's going on with them [00:25:00] because you're with them, all these different channels.

So I don't know that it's necessarily, I don't think it's harmful at all to actually say, I see you. I'm reminded of that. I think I saw something about that. Tell me more about that. Because that means you're paying attention and that you're honoring what they're trying to share. So funny talking

to you in, in part because I'm thinking to myself, these are

all the messages

people like saying, well, I'm kind of needy for that, or I'm kind of bad about that.

I'm like, no, you're not. Like that's not keep doing it or bad. Those are good things like keep doing them

Sadie: A hundred percent. And I also see these things as if it's hard for you to share or hard to be like, okay, I'm looking for someone to see me here. This is not normally something where

putting

myself out

that way, it can also be that like exposure therapy, working

vulnerability muscle. Yeah, it

is easier to put it on your story or have someone comment.

And so if that's how you're practicing and building that muscle and working up

that

actual interaction. I also think that's not the worst way of using social media as long as you're continuing to translate it to offline

interactions. [00:26:00] Yeah.

Jeffrey: And it's a, both, a both end perspective is one I would definitely share. You

there

is some good evidence that

certain

users out there having, for example, online friends, having online

community,

knowing that

there are

out

there who share your particular experience or

passion

about things is, is great and it's super healthy.

Yeah. But those things, I think in combination

also

strong personal relationships that you see in person are probably the

best

recipe. There is maybe some evidence that folks who are relying solely on media for those kind of relationships are probably better than having none. But I would just keep coming back to the idea that, we really wanna think of media as almost like the icing on the cake rather than the kind of big nutritional substance.

Sadie: Absolutely.

One thing that you guys talked about in this study, which is so fascinating, is that

not the quality of the relationships

and it's not even how we perceive the quality of the relationships. Like people are happy and content and are feeling good in their friendships and in their relationships, and yet we're hearing so much about like [00:27:00] Gen Z's not dating, gen Z is not going out and interacting with each other in person.

Gen Z's not drinking 'cause they must be super antisocial and lame. Gen Z's only online, there's a male loneliness epidemic. How are we kind of having this balance of like, okay, we are seeing our friendships as actually good enough and, and feeling fulfilling, but also there's all this like discourse and external markers saying that these relationships are fundamentally different than they might have been historically.

Jeffrey: You know, you're, you're asking a question. I've been struggling with a bit. I was talking to an another, person who works in the mental health field. About this. And, and he was saying that he also sees clients that talk about their own loneliness

and express

that

and one of the thing that I, I have been really pondering is whether or not maybe

possible

that there's like a negative feedback link. Like, so what, what if it's possible that what's happening is, is although it's empirically the case that loneliness is higher for. Perhaps some of the reasons that I mentioned occur.

Some demographic changes, , changes in terms of like some of the major [00:28:00] stabilizing forces in life, a higher expectation of mobility and changing your life. And even things like working remotely or otherwise, which

really is difficult

in order to make new friendships and otherwise, if you move to a new place.

What if these factors, which are all kind of socioeconomic

cultural, are

creating

trends,

but as we communicate these trends back to Gen Z

to young

folks,

then they

feel worse and worse about their own circumstances. So the analogy that I've been pondering is. If you're not doing very well, it's probably not all that productive for me to be constantly reminding you how badly you're doing,

You know what I mean?

really.

You know what I mean?

Sadie: Are you sure?

Jeffrey: As

a parent, I'm gonna guess that's a no. Like I'm just gonna go on a limb and say, yeah, probably not. Right?

But this is one.

Things from this study that I really like to share. We had groups of people who were high in loneliness and high in connection compared to people who were high in connection and low in loneliness. Right. And we would guess these are different groups of people. Well, this is the interesting part.

Young folks were more likely to be

the first,

the ambivalent group,

right.

But older [00:29:00] adults were more likely to be in

second

group, but they had as many as four fewer friends on average, spent less time with their friends on average. They're also less likely to feel like they were capable of making new friends or had made new friends.

So you're like, well, you know, middle aged adults are really the place in which they shouldn't be so connected, but they are. Yeah, they're feeling quite connected. Why? 'cause many of those strong friendships have been ones that they've had in their whole life. So you don't need a whole lot, right?

That there's

a stability

in their, their sense of social order and their relationships, and their family relationships.

And

then for young folks. All of those benefits of being able to create new friends, to make friends, to spend time with friends, also come with the risk that the next time you

move

for that next thing, you're gonna lose them and you have to start all

over again.

Yeah. That maybe, you know, you're, you're having a great you know, romantic relationship, but after a year and a half it just didn't work out and you break up and you have to start over again, which is quite common for young adults. So. What's interesting is we don't give the message to other folks

that because that they have fewer

friends aren't really making new friends, that they're somehow [00:30:00] bad.

Right. We don't, we don't reflect that back to them, but for some reason I think that there's this nexus of research evidence plus kind of like a kids today sort of. Thing, which every generation goes through, which says that somehow I think

Gen Z folks

are worser

off or,

or somehow less capable of friendships than they have been in the past.

And I, I just, I don't see the evidence to that. I think that there's a lot of exaggeration about the declining amounts of friendship. You, you also mentioned the, you know, rates of whether or not people are having sex or drinking or otherwise. If

you

look at this, it's like tiny percent differences. We're looking at like a 2% decline in whether or not like, oh yeah, really?

Like 2% is

that they're

gonna get all worked up about, or, and it's like

Sadie: you're saying that people, there's less underage like drinking, less teenage pregnancy like,

guys, those

could be good. are good things. Be good.

Jeffrey: Right, right. That's the part that I also don't get. I don't, I don't quite grasp why we're having that conversation, but it's part of these broader trends that I'm seeing in a lot of different sort of research reports and news articles and otherwise,

Sadie: [00:31:00] Yeah, it's, it's really, really fascinating and a conundrum for sure.

I wanna ask about this whole like. Really fascinating commentary on dating and relationships for Gen Z, especially this whole male loneliness epidemic and people alluding to, okay, the problem is

friendships and those

are fundamentally not meeting needs.

And so then, People get really up in arms of like, so you're saying that because romantic relationships aren't filling that gap, it's the, there's like so many different

Jeffrey: So many

Sadie: weighing in. It's so wild. And I'm curious, with this study, did you see gender differences and how people felt about their relationships, and felt that like ambivalence and loneliness, was that something that you guys came across in your data?

Jeffrey: Yeah,

There is some support for some of the things that you're saying, but not

all.

So one thing to keep in mind is that this ambivalence that I described before, it's more likely to be women who [00:32:00] are in this group than there are men. Mm-hmm. And it, and I would guess that part of the reason for this is that some studies have suggested that there actually is not a difference between men and women and loneliness, but there is a difference between how men and women in basically evaluate

feelings of loneliness, right? Everyone.

Sadie: Underline

that, write that down.

Highlight.

Jeffrey: Yeah, so, so I don't know of any, I have seen studies that have said women are lonelier. I've seen studies that said men are

have seen studies that have said there's no differences. So I'm not sure that there's a clear picture out there that says these things, that there's a huge gender difference in this.

But I do think that what happens is, is very similar to what

the

kind of consequences of expectations of friendship and the way that intimacy is developed between men and women tend to be different. In our study, we found that men compared to women were more likely to actually be in categories that are both high and loneliness and low in connection.

Hmm. They, they tended to actually be on that end of the distribution that really were feeling disconnected in their lives. So that supports some of the narrative and the idea that there are four. [00:33:00] Some group of men, and those men tend to also be ones who have lower socioeconomic opportunities. Ones that are, , not able to, they're, they're not able to have a lot of choices in their life and they're also feeling sort of restricted in that life and experience stress.

Because of that tend to also experience a degree of loneliness and disconnection. That is really unfortunate. And 'cause we had participants all the way from, you know, 18 to 92 and we had over almost 5,000 people. We could look at all these different groups of people and how they, they compare. So to some degree that that's the case.

But I think

that is

also the case and other research supports this, that women tend to put a higher premium on what it means to be friends that have higher expectation of what it means to be intimate. They have a higher expectation of what it means to actually keep in touch and be in communication with one another.

As a consequence, if. Other people who are more typically women, 'cause women are more likely to have women friends and men are more likely to have men friends, then they're also, if that's true, then there also means that they're, they're disappointed by what their friends provide them. They're amongst a culture of friendship That [00:34:00] has high expectations, and even if they're working really hard to kind of maintain those expectations, it's possible that they feel lonely because they.

They have

friends that just can't meet their expectations and maybe, yeah. They've also gotten messages from other women that they're failing their friend's ability, like their, what their friend's needs are. In research that I've done on friendship expectations, men are more at risk of having low expectations that aren't met.

Women are more at risk of having high expectations that aren't met.

Sadie: Hmm. Very interesting. And do you think the kind of like that happy medium people are dating less marriages later, do you think that's also kind of what is exacerbating this whole

issue?

Jeffrey: Yeah, I think that this

definitely part

why young adulthood is marked by this time of instability and also of greater loneliness and ambivalence.

, And that putting off of those sort of major life decisions in the future do

contribute to it.

it. How that works in terms of a gender dynamic is a little bit mysterious in some sense because you'd expect that to be equally experienced by both young people [00:35:00] going through the same thing. 'cause for both men and women, these are longer declines in the future of when yeah, those kind of first major milestones happen.

, So I don't have a good answer to you on that one. So it's a great

question.

Sadie: It's very interesting and I think we'll see that pan out as we get closer to that, like further pushback age, marker where

kind of

big life decisions happen and how that impacts all these markers. I am curious if kind

of going

through the data, hearing what people were reporting about their friendships and about these like major markers of stability being pushed back.

you have any ways that people can increase their feelings of predictability? Can increase their feelings of stability, even if the external isn't changing, because this is my favorite part about. Gen Z and this age of life is that yes, everything's changing, but everything is changing. So when you pick your roommates for next year and choose your class schedule and

accept that

new job, or move to that new city, or start that [00:36:00] relationship, all of those are opportunities to increase

stability,

even though it is a shift in stability.

so I'm curious what your, your recommendations are there.

Jeffrey: That's interesting.

I, I mean, part of this is perceptual. I expect part of this is based on behavior and one thing that I've become more open

to is a possibility

and something related to what I was saying earlier about constantly telling Gen Z, that they're somehow deficient, might actually make them feel worse about the circumstances they're in.

Is in the book, the social Biome that I wrote. But other work that I've done, I try to really say loneliness is not only a normal and natural feeling, but it means that you have a functional socio system. Like we think as researchers that

loneliness

is actually a, a sign to ourselves that

we are

desiring connection, that we want it.

So, you know, I mentioned a little while ago when

I was

on this, fellowship in Cambridge, I felt really, really lonely for my family. And that felt lousy to feel that lonely and it was memorably lonely 'cause it was so different than most, most of the times in [00:37:00] my life for the last 15 years. But that, and then I was actually kind of healthy that I had a strong response and tried to reach out to my family more often and was so.

Happy to be home when I was home and really try to make every moment count. That's why it's there. It exists like a hunger, like a thirst. So feeling lonely can be coped with, by some sense, all the things that loneliness is meant to have You do. Reach out to others, make a plan, be proactive.

So it's not a sense of I'm deficient or

I'm bad,

or I have bad friends, but instead. This is a healthy response to, and totally understandable circumstances that you

move to a new place or

you gotta make new relationships, or you long for those close, you know, close friendships back in your old university or maybe your, romantic partner who lives in another place.

Those are healthy emotions. So I really want, in some ways to push back against the idea that loneliness is necessarily a bad thing.

Feeling lonely is actually

a very normal and healthy thing to feel. And the other part about it is behavioral [00:38:00] questions, which I think the first leads to the second.

What are the tips about behaviors that you

should do?

What

are the

things that should happen? Well, you should actually very much work on this idea that the best way to work on broad sense of loneliness is

certainly one that might stay

there for a long

time because you've

moved or something life changes happened, is to make a plan, follow through, and be persistent.

So the persistent part of this, I think really matters. There's a kind of a cultural narrative in the United States that if people put you off, it means because they don't wanna be with you. I really question that. I actually think, and much of the, the research that I'm calling on here is research on why we also don't talk to strangers.

Why we don't reach out

to old

friends, why we don't make sort of an effort. There is a cultural

expectation that

are gonna be

awkward,

gonna

be unwelcome, and it's really not

something that.

Something we should do. Like it's just we should avoid it. What's strange is study after study has

confirmed that

if we take those actions to reach out, make plans, be persistent, the person on the other side also appreciates it like, like,

[00:39:00] thank

you for following through.

We wouldn't have got together with coffee without you. Keep trying. Right? Or we said we'd go out together and you're the one that made sure we went out together. The other one that I kind of like to push back on similarly on this, is that there's often discussions that people, and I've been asked this question before, if a person doesn't respond back to you and you're the person that's always doing the social planning, is that necessarily a bad friendship or a bad relationship?

And

I don't think so. I, I think my research on friendship, relational maintenance and otherwise suggests that some people are good at it and some people aren't as good at it. So the people who are really good at it, helping out the friends who aren't as good at it, makes

the friends

who aren't as good at feel really grateful.

They're like, thank God I have this person in my life that

actually makes

time for me. And the person who's doing the inviting often feel really glad to have someone to go out with and do things. But if we think of this as a imbalance or lack of reciprocation, or worse, a toxic relationship, I think we begin to sort of move into this territory that there's some sort of ideal mode where all friendships are perfectly equal, and that's not [00:40:00] gonna happen.

So being persistent, following through and following up is not only something you do for yourself, you do it

for your

friends.

Sadie: Yeah, I love that, and I think that's one thing I see

social

media that drives me crazy is it's like don't text them and if they don't text you, then it's a horrible relationship and never interact again. And it misses so much of the picture, like maybe you're the one that sends the text, but they're so present in person and carrying the conversation and asking about how you're doing.

Like it's not that simple. Obviously, if you're the one that's carrying the weight of every single conversation

and every

interaction. Totally different picture, but like you said, some people are better at planning and following up and remembering to maintain that relationship, but that doesn't mean that the relationship itself was inherently incredibly

imbalanced

Jeffrey: and not at all.

And

it's certainly not one that

should

necessarily draw attention to

try

to cancel or end I think it's not a good idea to start turning to it.

Well, if it's not working out, I need to end this friendship. Yeah. Friends go [00:41:00] through good times and bad times. To go through

renewal and times of change. But if you go to every relationship that's not working out

your

ideal and end it, you're not gonna have anybody in your life 'cause because no one's gonna love it

those

ideals all the time.

Sadie: So if you left people with one, prescription, one piece of advice, one thing they should implement with respect to their friendships and their relationships, looking past all the crazy misinformation and labels getting thrown around, what do you wish people would be doing that would fundamentally improve their, their friendships?

Jeffrey: I would

start with

kind

the, the big picture thinking that this is something that you should do, even if you don't feel inclined to do it.

Sadie: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jeffrey: I really

feel that

shift in thinking about social relationships as being similar to things like diet and exercise is the right way for us to start thinking about it.

Yeah. These are good practices to get into. They're good things to do, and if you have a choice between. Being social and not being social, you should go to the weaker impulse if you don't [00:42:00] feel like going. Mm-hmm. If someone has a party, show up. You know if, if someone has a message, respond to it. Be a responsive partner.

Be a good listener. keep it in your head constantly as something that's just worth working at. 'cause the bottom line for all of this is that relationships take work. It takes work to really be a great friend and to care for others. And these are things that are worth doing.

And the, research evidence is abundant that people who do these kind of things tend to be happier, live longer, live healthier lives because they understand that this world is one of interconnection, not one of isolation.

Sadie: Yeah, I love that you mention that because that is something that I've seen a lot as well, where it's like we protected our peace too much and there's too much self care and, kind of losing that, like you show up, you do this. Thing, you're there for your friends and I, I think that unlike diet or exercise, which are not

really a lot

of the time, super self-reinforcing, getting to the thing with that other person almost always is a positive experience.

Even if you're an introvert, even if you're [00:43:00] social batteries not super high, it is one of those things that is immediately beneficial and positive and a lot more doable than being vegan or something like that.

Jeffrey: That's funny. Yeah. You don't, you don't have to go to the far extreme

being super social to benefits

from it. Like, yeah, you, you only have to change your diet a little bit in the same way of don't try to go full bore. It's easy to do the little things every day and, and that's really, I

think, the message,

do the little things every day that makes a difference.

Sadie: I love it. Well, if people want to read your book, read the paper we talked about, where can they continue to follow along with your work?

Jeffrey: So I was very excited. The social biome, my book with Annie Morea was released this year in February. , Got a lot of good responses on that and all the kind of themes that we've talked about from your social battery to extroversion, introversion to why it's important to think of this as social health and strategies you can use to be connected all there in the book.

I'm on Instagram as Jeffrey Hall, PhD and I do a lot of sort. Promotion of the, of the work through podcasts [00:44:00] like these.

Sadie: Amazing. Thank you so much. I'm so glad we got to do this.

I hope you guys enjoyed that conversation with Dr. Jeffrey Hall as much as I did, all of Dr. Jeffrey Hall's research and information is in the show notes. I highly recommend you check out his work. If this is interesting to you, if there is one thing that you take away from this conversation, I hope it is the reminder that loneliness isn't proof that you're doing life wrong or that you're deficient, or something is messed up in your relationships.

It's a signal. It's your brain saying connection matters to me. And that's good. That means your brain works. It means you're human. It means that all systems are a go, and you recognize this really fundamental human need that maybe isn't getting met as it should be, which is great because now you know and you can do something about it.

So I hope this took some of the pressure off. You can have good friends, you can have good relationships, and you can still feel lonely. You can be social and still feel unseen. And it doesn't mean that your relationships are broken. It just means that life might be more [00:45:00] unstable, it might be more busy, you might be more on the go, and you're trying to build connection and foster relationships in a system that makes it really hard to maintain those dynamics, So like we talked about in this episode, your action step for today is to use the next social snack you get on Instagram, a post, a memory, a random thought about someone, and use that as your reminder to reach out to them privately. Send them a text.

If you email people, send them an email, leave them a voicemail, give them a FaceTime, send them a Snapchat. just reach out to them directly saying, I saw this. I thought of you, you came to mind. And another reminder I absolutely loved from this episode, if you are the planner friend, if you are Type A, if you are locked in on your Google calendar, keep being that friend.

It's not a character flaw, it's a skill and your friends and community are so grateful for that. So if this episode resonated.

send this to a friend who is in a new era of life or is going to enter one soon. [00:46:00] I know a lot of people are finding out about college and grad school and jobs. We're in that really interesting time of year, so. Send this to someone who might be quietly struggling to feel that sense of stability and groundedness.

And if you want more episodes, turning psychology into real life steps, you can try immediately. Make sure you are subscribed and following, she persisted. And I wanna know from you what is one thing you are doing this week to feel connected? Leave it in the comments. I'm gonna read every single one of them and I can't wait to hear your thoughts and how you're gonna put this episode into action.

I hope you have a great rest of your week and rest of the year if you're listening to this at the end of 2025. I hope this was a nice little fun social snacking.

Parasocial relationship happening because I love talking to you guys. It does feel like maintaining that social connection and relationship and catching you guys up and hearing from you. So with that, I will talk to you next time.

If you enjoyed this episode of She Persisted, make sure to leave a review, subscribe, and [00:47:00] share with a friend or family member. Follow along at at She Persisted podcast on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube and more for bonus content. Thanks for listening and keep persisting.

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