223. no one tells you this career advice (how to actually get ahead at work) feat. dr. rosalind chow

Jun 19

listen to this episode:

today’s guest is dr. rosalind chow— an associate professor of organizational behavior and theory at carnegie mellon university who studies the power of social hierarchy and its impact on diversity and inclusion efforts within organizations. her recently published book, the doors you can open, revolutionizes the way we network in the workplace.

in this episode, we break down what work mentors & sponsors look like (and how you can land one yourself!) and how inequality affects the workplace.

we talk about:

the difference between mentorship & sponsorship at work
why sponsorship matters when it come to workplace inequality
how networking fits into mentorship & sponsorship
ways to get people to mentor or sponsor you
myths around finding mentors & whether they’re actually true
helping advocate for others in the workplace
providing value at work even as a junior employee
the benefits & value of being a gen z employee
how to talk about inequality in the workplace
why people struggle to address workplace inequality
capitalism & how it influences our views on success
the challenges in trying to change workplace inequalities
advice for people who are just starting their careers
comparing your career to your peers & workplace competition

Mentioned:

SHOP GUEST RECOMMENDATIONS: https://amzn.to/3A69GOC

About She Persisted

She Persisted is THE Gen Z mental health podcast. In each episode, Sadie brings you authentic, accessible, relatable conversations about every aspect of mental wellness. Expect evidence-based, Gen Z-approved resources, coping skills (lots of DBT), insights, and education in each piece of content you consume. She Persisted offers you a safe space to feel validated and understood in your struggle while encouraging you to take ownership of your journey and build your life worth living.

a note: this is an automated transcription so please ignore any accidental misspellings!

Sadie: [00:00:00] Welcome to She Persisted, the Gen Z Mental Health Podcast. I'm your host, Sadie Sutton. Let's get into it.

Dr. Chow: a lot of younger people in particular, they don't see themselves as having a lot of

value so they're coming to the table feeling like, all I wanna do is take. And I don't have anything to give. And so the thing that I think is important for people to know is there's value in the problems that you can help other people solve.

Also that there's value in having problems that other people can help you solve too.

Sadie: Hello, hello you guys, and welcome back to She Persisted. I'm so excited you are here. We are talking about a really interesting topic, which is workplace dynamics and inequalities, how to find mentors and sponsor your peers, and have your peers be sponsors for you.

This is one of the most important skills that you can have going into your future career or thriving as a student. And so I'm really excited for you guys to hear from our expert guest today, Dr. Rosalind Chow.

She's an associate professor of Organization Behavior [00:01:00] and Theory at Carnegie Mellon. She studies the power of social hierarchy and its impact on diversity and inclusion efforts within organizations. Her new book, The Doors You Can Open, talks about the ways that we network in the workplace and really revolutionizing that process and coming at it from a really new angle.

So in this episode, you're gonna learn what work mentors and sponsors look like, how you can land one, and how you can be one yourself. We talk about how inequality affects workplace dynamics,

advocating for others, providing value, and some other like larger workplace themes that are really helpful to be aware of when navigating your career or your future career. And we're releasing this episode after I'm a couple weeks into my new job at Binghamton University. I am working as a research assistant

full time. So I feel like I'm like sticking my head out from under the water to record this intro for you guys because every day has just been so insanely busy. But this conversation had given me so many skills to bring into this new role, and I really [00:02:00] hope it does the same for you. So, without keeping this too long, and of course, a solo coming soon with all the updates, but let's dive into this incredible career episode.

Well thank you so much for joining me on She Persisted. I'm so excited to have you on. I think we're also recording this at a perfect time because a lot, of people are just starting to transition into post grad.

Maybe they're doing summer. Internships. or maybe they just figured out where they're going to college. It's like a very opportune moment to reflect on how we can be effective in our careers, how we can start to establish these mentor relationships, how we can support our peers through this process.

And so I'm really excited to have you on the show today. Well, thank you. I'm excited to be here. Of course. , So for people that don't know you are a professor, you also have a book that just came out and I would love to get a little bit of background about how you ended up in this area, , studying leadership and mentorship, relationships, diversity, workplace psychology, all of the things, , as an area that you were [00:03:00] interested in.

Oh, well.

Dr. Chow: I'll give you the short version of this story, which is, , I originally wanted to be a clinical psychologist. And, , for those who don't know to get into a clinical psychology program, they're quite competitive. I mean, everything's competitive these days, but even back then, they were very competitive.

And the way to get in would, is. Be to have research experience. And so I started volunteering at a psychology lab to do research and then I also volunteered at a suicide hotline. And because of the volunteering, quickly realized that I didn't have what it took to work with clients. But that I actually wasn't so bad at this research thing and that I actually kind of enjoyed it. And then I actually ended up taking a class in organizational behavior my senior year of college. I do tell this story actually in [00:04:00] the book, because what's funny about that is my father had told me about organizational behavior, a long time prior to me taking that class and because.

I, you know, didn't wanna listen to my parents' advice. I just totally brushed it off. And it wasn't until a friend of mine said, oh, I took this class in. Organizational behavior was really good. So I ended up taking that class and realized, oh, here's, A way that I could do psychology, but in a context that was, really applicable and interesting.

'Cause it was important to me to be working on things that would have an impact on people. So then I, I ended up going to organizational behavior and doing research on social inequality, how we understand social inequality. did that for. Like almost 15 years, I guess. A long time. And got a little bit tired of just constantly pointing out problems and [00:05:00] not thinking about solutions, which is how I, I came upon, mentorship and sponsorship.

Got frustrated actually with how academics are, are thinking about sponsorship and mentorship. And so I started doing research in this area and, was very excited to put out this book because I think there's a lot about mentorship in the sponsorship that people don't really understand or have, what I would consider to be maybe like a, a more outdated perception of, and so hopefully the book is gonna help.

Illuminate these different ways that mentorship and sponsorship can happen and how we can all be mentors and sponsors.

Sadie: So there's this difference between mentorship and sponsorship. You really dive into this in the book, but just like so many things in the psychology world, these terms that we like very clearly define and study in everyday life, get.

Really confused and mixed up. So to kind of set a foundation for people, can you clarify the difference between [00:06:00] mentorship and especially with respect to your work? Sure. So

Dr. Chow: I mean, I'll start off by saying with like where we were and why I got all like worked up to. Yeah, start studying this.

So mentorship for a long time really just referred, , to an older, more seasoned, experienced person who was helping a more junior person. In kind of through life, it didn't even actually have to be about career. , As they got picked up more in the career space, it started referring, you know, to much more specific like work related behaviors.

Sadie: Yeah.

Dr. Chow: , And they did talk about sponsorship, but for a long time, sponsorship was kind of this like, . Subcategory of mentorship. So it was like something that mentors would do. , If you looked at what the definition of sponsorship was, it was like, , a mentor using their influence on your behalf.

Mm-hmm. And what struck me as being, [00:07:00] you know, like where, why sponsorship was not like the other things that the, the mentorship people would talk about was. it was acting on a different person. Mm-hmm. So that is actually the big key to how I think about that, that difference. It's like with mentorship, first of all.

Now, , people who study mentorship think that mentorship can come from anyone. You have peer mentorship, reverse mentorship. There's all kinds of mentorship, right? , Mentorship can come from anyone. , And, but they've always said that sponsors have to be more powerful.

Sadie: Hmm.

Dr. Chow: , And we can talk about. Why that is and, we'll, certainly I'm sure touch on this.

But, , mentorship is really about changing the person you're trying to support. So when you think about people who mentor you, it's like they're giving you feedback or, or mm-hmm. Encouragement, right? They're, , saying like, great job, or Keep doing this, or, well, as you. Do this again next time.

Maybe you should consider doing it differently in this way. But these are all things that are meant to change us [00:08:00] as the person who's like the recipient of this advice and coaching.

Sadie: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Chow: , And sponsorship is just, is very different in the sense that. It is not about trying to change the person who's being helped, it's actually about changing other people and how they see and, and treat the person that the sponsor's trying to help.

So, , going forward, I am gonna be using mentor mentee very like, clearly to be like, okay, that's mentorship.

Sadie: , But

Dr. Chow: if I'm ever talking about. Sponsorship, I will be saying like a protege, not a, a mentee. , Other people use sponsee as well as a,

Sadie: so. Mentorship relationships, the individual is changing, evolving, likely because of the knowledge that's being imparted or the feedback that's being provided.

Sponsorship, you're more impacting the way you're perceived or how others are relating to you.

Dr. Chow: Mm-hmm.

Sadie: Yeah. So.

Dr. Chow: It's again, it's about who is being [00:09:00] asked to change. Yes. , Mentees are changed. And then, , audiences, so external audiences are being asked to change how they see and treat a protege.

Sadie: One area that I think is really interesting here for us to consider before we dive into all the nuances is why this is important.

You mentioned in your background social inequality and so I'm curious why sponsorship and mentorship, , show up as such an important factor for individuals who are coming from minoritized backgrounds, , or don't necessarily have as much. Of a position of privilege, I guess you would say, in these positions.

Dr. Chow: Mm-hmm.

Sadie: So, .

Dr. Chow: One way to think about why this matters is that, , mentorship for the most part is, is really related to how we personally experience our day to day lives.

Sadie: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Chow: So having a mentor makes us feel safer at work, makes us, , feel more satisfied with our jobs. , We're happier to be there, right?

We feel like we have, , [00:10:00] support and close relationships. Sponsorship, because it doesn't act on the protege. One, it's possible for people to be sponsored and to not even know about it. Right.

Sadie: Mm.

Dr. Chow: And so, ,

Sadie: that's how we're doing this interview is, is you got sponsored. , I heard about your book and it's like, it's an amazing, it's an amazing setup.

Dr. Chow: Yeah, no, that's right. so here my sponsor was Adam Grant, apparently. And so Adam recommended that Sadie get in touch with me. Right. That you get in touch with me. Mm-hmm. And so that's how this. This happened. , And hopefully like Adam did a good job of thinking through okay, like what kind of guests are, is Sadie like interested in?

And then what could Rosalyn speak to and, and are they a good match? Yeah. And to the extent that he's done a good job of matching us, It's gonna be great for both of us. Right. But that's the thing is, , like obviously I'm happy to hear that Adam [00:11:00] sponsored me. , But ultimately where sponsorship becomes really important is getting people access to opportunities that they wouldn't have otherwise have gotten.

Right. Like I have. I No idea. Yeah. About you. And you had no idea about me. Right. And so this is a connection. This being on this podcast was an opportunity that would probably never have presented itself, if not for the sponsorship of Adam. Right. And so when you think about who gets. Sponsored in organizations at work or wherever.

, A lot of it is predicated on who knows who and also who's seen as being exceptional and, I assume, well, maybe I shouldn't assume, but there's, there's a lot of research out there, right? That suggests that when it comes to being perceived as exceptional, women and racial minorities typically [00:12:00] have a higher bar.

So they're mu they're much less likely to be seen as exceptional, which makes it less likely that they're going to be sponsored. , So that's one part of it. But then the other part of it is also about who their sponsors are. So, , you know, gender and , racial and ethnic background also are play a big role in people's networks, who they know.

, And so that also impacts. The kinds of opportunities that their sponsors can even sponsor them for. Mm-hmm. ,

Sadie: I am wondering if you can offer like an additional definition that fits into both the sponsoring and mentoring context, which is networking.

You mentioned that like our networks impact who we sponsors or their, our mentors can leverage their own networks to get us opportunities. How does networking. Fit into this equation of mentorship and sponsorship.

Dr. Chow: Mm-hmm. , So I just, one thing I wanna clarify is that, , mentors can be sponsors, so it's not [00:13:00] like a mutually exclusive thing, right?

Yeah. So someone who's your mentor can also sponsor you. , But it doesn't have to be that way, right? Mm-hmm. So I would not say like, I would not consider Adam Grant a mentor of mine. But he is certainly a sponsor of mine. , so, so there's that. , So who mentors us and who sponsors us is, is very much dependent on our network.

Of who we know, right? Because we can't build relationships with people if we don't have access to them in some way.

Sadie: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Chow: , So that's where networking like plays a role, , with both mentorship and sponsorship. The difference between mentorship and sponsorship when it comes to. , How we use our networks is different because what sponsors do is they essentially share their network with their sponsee.

Sadie: With their

Dr. Chow: protege. So that's, at least, that's [00:14:00] one way of being a sponsor, is to, in do what we would call like strategic introductions. Right. So, , you know, I'm trying to think of it like this example of Adam here, right? he did not strategically introduce us. Mm-hmm. He did. Tell you about me.

Mm-hmm. But if you'd wanted to go a little bit further, he would've directly put us in touch, right? Mm-hmm. And that would've been, , a stronger form of sponsorship. But him letting you know about me and saying that, , he thought I was a good fit was, is also another way, of being a sponsor.

, But again, his ability to do that is predicated on him knowing me and you. Right.

Sadie: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Chow: And so the, how much our sponsors can do for us depends a lot on their networks.

Sadie: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Chow: so you need to have a sponsor or you don't need to, but Right. It's better to have a sponsor who is well connected because the more different their network is from yours mm-hmm.

The more opportunities [00:15:00] they have to make these connections and to match. You with other people in their network who would be like, delighted to know about you.

Sadie: Yeah. So building on that, keeping in mind that like a network that aligns with your goals, , a substantial network that could potentially be utilized is a good thing to be looking for.

What other things are you aware of when identifying potential mentors and sponsors, whether it's like. Types, like how they make these connections? Are they hands-on? Are they hands off? What stage of the career they're in, like what would you be looking for and avoiding in that mentorship and sponsorship context.

Dr. Chow: So that's a really great question. one caveat I will say, , is that because sponsorship is, . It's like, it's based on whether or not the sponsor wants to sponsor you. And so mm-hmm. I feel like it's, , hard for me to answer these questions because, , it, it kind of assumes that [00:16:00] proteges have some sort of agency in this, which they do.

Yeah. , But maybe not to the degree that I feel like, , people Seem to, , think that they do.

Sadie: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Chow: And I, and I am only emphasizing this because I feel like it just puts so much pressure. On young people in particular to be like, okay, now I have to go and find a mentor and I have to go and find a sponsor.

How do I go and do that? How do I pick the right person? , And, and so one thing that I think is really important to say is like, actually you don't get to. Pick. Yeah. Yeah. You, you can make it really easy for other people to pick you, but you don't, you don't necessarily get to pick. , But so if I could just reframe that as like, how do I make it easy for people to want to mentor me or want to sponsor me?

, Obviously right table stakes. Is just like, do a good job [00:17:00] at whatever it is that you're doing.

Sadie: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Chow: But that's like a necessary but insufficient condition. Right. For, for getting, sponsorship in particular, , is, remember sponsorship is, is given to people we think , who are exceptional, not just Yeah.

Average. , So the way to get over the hump. if you're already like a really strong worker or performer, is, you have to make it personal. So this is where things can sometimes get a little bit trickier, especially for women and people of color. , This is where you have these conversations about like, you should bring your whole self to work.

You should be more authentic at work. All of that is, , based on research that suggests that like, you know, being, , more forthcoming, humanizing yourself. Is a way to build relationships with other people. you know, building those closer relationships is really what often leads to, , sponsorship [00:18:00] from sponsors.

But then when you're a woman, you're kinda like, well, how much do I. I wanna really reveal or, , you know, just any sort of, if you marginalized person from a marginalized background, you're, you're kinda like, how real do I wanna get about my, like, day to day life experience with this person? Especially if they're from a group that's different than, you know, than mine.

Yeah. , And so it becomes this interesting balancing act for people of like, how much to share versus how much to withhold. Ultimately, the thing that I think is important is if you just show people what you care about. So it doesn't have to be about sports or, I mean, those are the easy things typically.

Yeah. , But if there's something that you're really, really passionate about. , I think it's, it's okay to make that part known, , especially if you make it, if you put it in a broad enough way that it's kind of like, why would [00:19:00] anybody ever think that this was not a good thing for people to be passionate about?

Yeah. Right. So, I mean, all of us care about. well, I, I can't say all of us maybe, but like, I, I would say that most people think it's a good thing to want to contribute positively to the world, whatever that might look like. And, you know, you might say for instance, like, I'm super passionate about addressing climate change.

Well, that can be a little political mm-hmm. In some circles. Right. So instead you can broaden it to be like, I really care about like, future generations and making sure that the younger generations are gonna have as great , of opportunities or, you know, environments, , as generations who have come before.

So just kind of tweaking. Things that [00:20:00] might come off as being a little more political, casting them in a broader way, but making it easy for people to see what you're passionate about. , So passion here is really important because people assume usually accurately that, , when we're working on things that we're passionate about.

We're gonna be willing to like really go for it, right? Yeah. We'll be super motivated, we'll be really persistent in our willingness to work for it. , So we'll put in high effort, high intensity effort. , And this is all stuff that people, , typically think of as leading to high performance. And so if people see you as passionate and they understand what your core value is.

Or are, , and assuming that they have core values that align with yours, that's how you're actually gonna hook them in, right? So I wouldn't go out looking for mentors and sponsors in this like, hyper instrumental [00:21:00] way of like, this person is in a position of power and they're gonna be able to like, get me X, Y, and Z.

It's more like, okay. These are my values. What are their values? They do, they align with mine? Mm-hmm. Do we care about the same things? And assuming everything aligns, then it just becomes so much easier to build that relationship with them.

Sadie: I'm curious what your thoughts are on like the, I don't know if it's an age old adage, but it's advice I've heard a lot with to.

I guess more the mentorship framework, which is like you provide value and then they'll provide value in return rather than just going and being like, what can I get from this person or context. Mm-hmm. Would you say that applies and is true where you focus first on how you can. Provide value or information or support to the other person, and then in turn you might receive mentorship or sponsorship.

Dr. Chow: Yeah. So I, agree with that sentiment. the reason why I don't like [00:22:00] wholeheartedly subscribe to it is because when we start talking about like, okay, For this to work out, I have to be able to provide value to the other person. So now I have to start thinking like, well, what value do I bring to this relationship?

And for a lot of younger people in particular, like they don't see themselves as having a lot of value.

Sadie: Yeah. To bring,

Dr. Chow: they feel very powerless. so they're coming to the table feeling like, all I wanna do is take. And I don't have anything to give. Mm-hmm. And that makes networking in particular like feel terrible.

, Because you're in a way, like, even though we might not consciously think about it in this way, like you're kind of going out and trying to like exploit people, which is not fun. Yeah. , And so the other, the thing that I think is important for people to know is like. There's value in terms of what you personally can do, [00:23:00] but there's also value in, , who, you know, and, and the problems that you can help other people solve.

And also that there's value in having problems that other people can help you solve too. Yeah, so, so just like a flip, right, is like this thing of, okay, I wanna help other people with their problems. When in reality, like people love solving problems, you know? Yeah. And so if you can give them a problem to solve, that's actually another way to build a relationship.

Because for them, , well. Now they've actually just seen themselves helping you and they're like, okay, well I just helped this person. I must be the kind of person who, who helps. Like I must like them.

Sadie: Mm-hmm. Right.

Dr. Chow: , And then like, that's actually a perfectly valid other way of building relationships is, , not necessarily providing value to the other person, but providing value in a different way, which is helping them feel good about themselves by having a [00:24:00] problem that they can help.

You solve.

Sadie: You mentioned how we can set ourselves up to be effectively sponsored. How can we ourselves be good sponsors, especially to peers, classmates? , Beyond, like you mentioned, like potentially there's the network, , where you can connect people, but what are these? Ways that we can effectively sponsor people, whether it's like how we approach the relationship, how we advocate for someone.

Do you focus on like external outputs or more personality traits? Like what are the best practices there?

Dr. Chow: I think the easiest way to sponsor, especially when you're at a junior level and you don't have a lot of power per se. Mm-hmm. Right? Is just to pay attention to what is going on with other people and making note of what makes them special.

Sadie: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Chow: and then when there is an opportunity where their area of like specialness is needed, that's your [00:25:00] opportunity to like sing their praises. And be like, here is this person that you all should know about because they're gonna be the solution to this problem that you're trying to solve.

Sadie: Mm-hmm. And so

Dr. Chow: you get credit for that because you've brought the solution to them, right? Yeah. You're not the solution, but you've helped solve the problem. , And so this is a, you know, this goes back to your earlier question of like, how can we provide value? We can provide value by being the solution ourselves, or we can also provide value by putting other people in touch with solutions, right?

Mm-hmm. And so, you know, I, when I, when I think about like junior people, . Or even, let's, I'll just use you as an example. Maybe inaccurately you should let me know, right. But I can tell you on my end that people who are , in my generation are like, I don't know how to get through to the [00:26:00] millennials. I don't like, I have no connection with the younger generation.

but I would love to be engaged with them. Yeah. Right. . But because our networks are typically limited to people who are similar to our own, it makes it really hard mm-hmm. To actually like find and build a relationship with someone who's like a significantly younger. But I can tell you that for instance, like other podcasters that I've been speaking with are like.

How do I get in touch with a millennial audience? How do I get on millennial podcasts? Like mm-hmm. How do I make, you know, how do I build this network with this group that I don't have, insight or access to? Yeah. And that's where people like you, right? Mm-hmm. Could become really, really important because you are open, presumably, to having those relationships and can then.

[00:27:00] Make those matches for people in your, social sphere and then you know these other people who otherwise don't have access.

Sadie: Yeah, no, I totally agree. Agree. And it's something that Gen Z very much overlooks, which is like, there's a lot of people that wanna understand how we think and feel and approach issues.

They, and that is like a lot of value that can be provided, whether it's like. Network or insight on experiences. I think especially in industry, like there's a lot of sentiment of like, how can we reach Gen Z? How can we understand how they're thinking? And as a Gen Z or as a millennial, you are qualified to speak to your experience.

And so I think you've kind of like alluded to this, that we do undervalue what the value we can potentially provide is. And so. Being aware and hearing those opportunities. And I mean maybe again, you can refer to someone else, you could say, I might not be the best person to speak to this, but really like hyping yourself up a bit and, [00:28:00] and thinking about those more creative ways that you could provide perspective or insider value, I think is something we overlook, but can make those initial relationships really effective.

Dr. Chow: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Totally. Yes. Like

Sadie: plus one's all of that. Yeah, and I would definitely say that like. I, I try to be like more creative and outta the box when structuring these mentorship relationships, especially in academia because there's a lot of inbound requests of the same thing. Like, I can help with research.

I want to take this class. Like I'd love support, and. I've been able to effectively break in by being like, do you need help with social media? Or, I have perspective on this area of digital related things, or, you need more participants. I can make IRB approved video edits. Like these skills, this value that's provided that isn't like the traditional trajectory or framework, but still might benefit that other person.

Dr. Chow: Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. Okay. I, I would, I would love to get one of those emails from you, Sadie,

Sadie: [00:29:00] right? Like it's a need, like, and we are so savvy as Gen Z and media and, , how we can. Like improve dissemination in academia and kind of make these things more widely accessible. But no one in Gen Z is thinking from that perspective of like, how can I help in that respect?

Like that's a skill set that I can absolutely provide to someone. And no one is ever like, hello, nice to meet you. Do you need help with this? Which is so interesting.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. But

Dr. Chow: then, you know, I guess the thing that I would, I would like, , caution people on right? Is like. Don't offer your help indiscriminately.

Yes, very true. Right? Because part of what you're doing is, , as you're building these connections, you're essentially starting to build your own reputation. And so you want to be careful about who you associate yourself with.

Sadie: Mm-hmm. And

Dr. Chow: this is, again, where those values become really important in the same way that.

You making your values more transparent, makes it easier for other people to wanna [00:30:00] sponsor you. , You clearly, if, if you are going out and looking for sponsors or mentors, like trying your best to find people who have values that align with yours. Yes. , So that you don't run into any

Sadie: issues like later on a hundred percent.

Absolutely. Switching gears a little bit and going back to the social inequality piece. You've done really interesting research that shows that when we focus on disadvantage versus privilege, people respond really differently. And so like the way that we present these issues, the way we frame these conversations has a lot of implications.

What are the best practices for discussing disparities, being effective? Framing inequality based on what we know from a psychological standpoint. So it's

Dr. Chow: funny that you asked me this question because only recently has a, a review piece come out that looks, , at this question, I guess of like best practices.

I can tell you [00:31:00] that their recommendation is not to not frame. , Which is to say like. There's a difference in how much men and women make.

Sadie: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Chow: , So that would be saying like, there's an inequality, but I'm not gonna tell you. What the nature of that inequality is, right? Yeah. Because, , what people are trying to avoid when they do that is say either that men are making more than women, or women are making less than men.

Which as you alluded to, we've found in our research, actually has a lot of ramifications for how people understand what's happening. in those situations, so. Mm-hmm. Mostly being that like when we say that one group makes more or is better off, we assume that they're the group that needs to be explained.

Sadie: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Chow: They're the ones that are like deviant in a way. Mm-hmm. Right. But when we say that other groups are worse off or make less, . Suddenly they're the group that needs to be explained. [00:32:00] Mm-hmm. So my general take is that to the best of your ability, try and do it both ways. Mm-hmm. Right? , So try to be balanced in how you express, , or describe inequality.

So sometimes using advantage, sometimes using disadvantage, that's if you're trying to be. Even handed about it.

Sadie: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Chow: If you have a strong belief about what the nature of the inequality is, then like use the term that you think is appropriate. Right. , So if you think that the deficiency, right, that the pers the group that needs to be fixed.

Are women. Mm-hmm. And you can say that women are are disadvantaged, that they are less or whatever. And this is probably how we got into this world of like lean in and. Yeah, it's all this programming about like, okay, how do we fix women? How do we get women to change so that they can have better outcomes?

You don't see [00:33:00] this same kind of rhetoric in terms of like men, right? When, in reality. If women are making less, like kind of objectively speaking, somebody else has to be making more. Yeah, yeah. , Absolutely. We dont typically talk about it in that way and potentially like, part of the reason we don't talk about it that way is because we don't see men as the pro, which is why we don't have programming that is like, okay, I mean, how do we like men?

How do we. Get you to be less overconfident. , Yeah, that would be, , potentially like one, thing that we could try and solve there,

Sadie: but

mm-hmm.

So I'm curious when we touched on this briefly when we connected before the interview about how. We get into these conversations and there's pushback with changest occur because it kind of feels like a zero sum game, right?

Like if you apply resources to one place, it's being taken from someone else. Or people struggle to like [00:34:00] respond and make change, even if objectively they're like, that's not fair, that's not right. Do you have any like research or information on why people have like such strong responses to these contexts?

Why we do view these things like. Peers getting promoted, or who has a mentor as a reflection of our own opportunities. And in that like zero sum game framework. Oh

Dr. Chow: my gosh. I mean, so that's like a, that's a big question. Yes.

You know, ultimately, one is that like everybody wants to feel like they deserve what they have.

Sadie: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Chow: And they wanna feel like there's a pretty straight line between things that they do and like what happens to them.

Sadie: Mm-hmm. Because if,

Dr. Chow: if there's not like a clear link between the effort we put in, or like how well we do and, and what we get, like, like why do we do it?

Yeah. Yeah. That, that's like not a recipe for knowing how to navigate life, because [00:35:00] usually people, everything's random. Mm-hmm. So I think we're, we're innately kind of motivated to want to see these linkages. and also to see ourselves as, deserving, right? Yeah. Of what we, of what we have.

, So that's one part of it, I guess underneath what you're trying to say is like. Why is our mentality towards so much of life right now? So zero sum? Yeah. Like why can't we be more expansive in how we think about like, what is possible? , Again, so there's so much that we could go, we could go into, but I ultimately, I do think it, has to do with the fact that, .

We as a society have defined success to look a certain way, and that certain way that we've kind of all landed upon kind of is zero sum. Yeah, like there's only [00:36:00] so far you can climb in an organizational hierarchy. , Now that's not to say that like you can't create more wealth for everyone like that mm-hmm.

Is actually a possibility. The issue is that even once you generate, let's say, like you generate more wealth for everyone. You're still going to have people who want differentiation between those who are better and those who are worse. Mm-hmm. Hierarchy is something that we are naturally wired, , to look for and in a way like want, because it makes the world easier for us to navigate.

. I'm thinking in the back of my mind, like Ezra Klein has this great book called, , abundance. Mm-hmm. Right now where his whole argument in a way is like trying to diagnose some of these structural reasons why we've gotten into this kind of zero sum mentality.

Yeah. , Michael Sandel has a book [00:37:00] called The Tyranny of Merit that is also a really great resource for thinking about like. Why are we all like, why does it exist like this? Yeah, yeah, exactly. So how about I punt on that and say that there are other people who have like, yes, much no, I love it. Or love thought out answers to this Yes.

Question.

Sadie: No, I, I definitely will be ordering both of those because I do think, like you said, this permeates so many areas of our society. , And so understanding how we got into this position. It in some respects, it makes sense how we've vetted up here, even if it's hugely ineffective or inefficient. , You did touch on part of my question, which is like hierarchies that exist in organizations.

We have these larger structures that we operate within, but it's hard to create change in these large structures and it's hard to. Shift these inequalities or disparities or disadvantages that exist. I'm curious why that is.

Even if we have [00:38:00] these objective pieces of data that can tell us these things are inefficient or not equal, or that something should change, why is it so hard for that to occur?

Dr. Chow: Oh, I mean, those who are in positions of power are always going to be. Wanting the status quo, right? Yeah. Like nobody actively, or not nobody, right, but very few people actively are like, see how great I have it?

I'm gonna give that away. So yeah, you can have it too. in my more cynical moments, I would say the reason it's so hard is, is. Purely because of that. Right? Yeah. It's like people, people are gonna want to what's good for them. Mm-hmm. And people who are higher in the power hierarchy who have more control over how things are run. Yeah. Are gonna have a hard time imagining a process where they have to give [00:39:00] up that power or change their process in a way that.

Calls into question whether or not they should have succeeded.

Sadie: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Chow: Right. So if, yeah, I'm gonna argue for different standards of evaluation because I feel like the old ones were not meritocratic. Like what does that say about all the people who succeeded under that? Yeah. Original process, right? That's like not a message that, that is gonna go over really well.

Yeah. I think it is the rare place where you're going to have leadership that is, , sufficiently. You need to have really strong leadership

Sadie: mm-hmm.

Dr. Chow: To enact some of these changes. , And unfortunately and leadership tenures are getting shorter. So meaning like if you look at the average CEO tenure, it's, it's [00:40:00] decreasing over time to somewhere around, I think it's like four years now.

Think about it. That's like how much time you spent in undergrad. Yeah. Like how much change and think about like the things that you cared about in undergrad and maybe like if you were in student government, you were trying to change.

Sadie: Yeah, no, our student government is like getting us these sweatshirts.

That's like one of the main goals for that tenure.

Dr. Chow: Right, because you're just kind of like my ability, 'cause I'm not gonna be sticking around long enough to see these implementations through. Yeah. , And so one option is don't bother. Mm-hmm. The second is like, scale down the, the ambition of the goal.

I guess. Mm-hmm. Right. And the other one obviously is like, try and do it. But if you're gonna try and do it, you have to know that everything is lined up in such a way that you can actually make enough change in the time that [00:41:00] you're gonna be around that it's gonna be sticky.

Sadie: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Chow: And that, that part is the harder part.

Sadie: Yeah, and I think like there's a lot, this is a very interesting school of thought, especially with respect to the political system and just swinging back and forth and it's like, okay, changes are made and then they're reversed and like all of these dynamics and exactly what you're describing, which is why psychologically it's almost like discouraged to make these changes 'cause you're not invested in the outcome.

But then also when these people are in positions of power, it's like. Those against our basic instincts to like rework the system. Right. Even if initially that was a, was a goal. Yeah. I am curious to wrap things up. If you were starting your career out and you wanted to set yourself up for success, whether it's a way of thinking about this process, , having a certain goal, whether it's, , presenting yourself for sponsors or mentorships, looking for people [00:42:00] that are aligned with values.

You mentioned little things in your book as being really important. Like what would your one piece of advice be to someone who's at the early stages and again, maybe is undervaluing themselves? Doesn't feel like they have that power to make these huge shifts. And maybe they're listening to this and like, okay, that might be harder than I originally thought.

but what would your insight be there?

Dr. Chow: This is a great question and I guess my answer to that would be, I wish I. Was more secure in myself. Yeah. And I, and I see this in a very particular way, not in the sense that I should have thought better of myself or like, thought that I had so much to give or, you know, like I should have had higher self-esteem, even though I would've loved that for myself.

, Yeah. What I mean by that is, . I think for a lot of younger people there's this concern that like if somebody else does well, it must mean that I'm not doing well, or, or the, the [00:43:00] whole like, social comparison thing is, is hard.

Yeah. it is so much better if you can go around in the world and give the gift of seeing other people. Yeah. For who they are and, and telling them who they are. Mm-hmm. And what I mean by that is like when you see someone and they seem like they are in their zone or in their element Right.

Or doing something that really makes 'em light up. Naming that for them so that they have information about who they are when they're at their best.

Sadie: Yeah,

Dr. Chow: and that can be your superpower too, like in a way. I think that probably has become a superpower that I've. Developed over time is just being able to observe other people and then being able to name what it is that makes them unique and special.[00:44:00]

Sadie: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Chow: , And not just telling them about it, but then also going out and telling other people about it. Yeah. And so that's like my own kind of little way of being someone's sponsor. , I think if I had started off doing that. Mm-hmm. I have to imagine that I would be a really different person than who I am now.

in like totally positive ways. Yeah. Right. , But I think this whole zero sum thing, social comparison really gets in our own ways, , for sure. And it's, it's hard. I will also say like if someone my age now told me this when I was younger, I would've been like, yeah, easy for you to say that

But yeah, if, if you can, if you can manage it right, seeing what other people's, , superpowers are and being able to name them to them. 'cause for all you know, they're gonna be able to [00:45:00] do that for you and tell you what your superpower is. And that is like amazing information to have.

Sadie: And I do think what you said about being really secure in yourself also really means being aware of your weaknesses.

And then when you're looking for strengths in others, you are able to then leverage that network and sponsor others and be the problem solver to connect someone with that person. And I think it's. A much more fulfilling path. It's less stressful than being like, I have to be perfect at everything and show no weaknesses, and it's a zero sum game.

So it's just me and everything's riding on my back. So I think that's really important to remember, , especially in the early stages of your education or your career. Yeah. Definitely agree. Well, if people want to order your book or read more about your research and the work you're doing, where can they do that?

So, , the book

Dr. Chow: is being sold wherever you get your nor [00:46:00] normally get your book. Yeah. , I am usually a big fan of bookshop.org Right. To support independent booksellers. , But also like request it from your library. Yeah. 'cause libraries also need a lot of help right now. , I'm also on LinkedIn.

I'm not sure if LinkedIn

Sadie: is a place or if people are in college and like thinking about their careers. They're definitely for sure. Unfortunately against their will making their LinkedIn profiles.

Dr. Chow: I was also brought onto LinkedIn kicking and screaming, did not want to do it. , So I totally understand that.

Sadie: I have the opinion. People are like, social media is so toxic. And I'm like, have you ever been on LinkedIn? Because that is a stressful place to be scrolling. Yeah. Which,

Dr. Chow: so I will say, so the way that I use LinkedIn is, in retrospect an extension of, of things I talk about in the book. Yeah. So I don't actually write about myself on LinkedIn.

Mm-hmm.

Sadie: I

Dr. Chow: write. All about other [00:47:00] people's research. I try to, I love that. Amplify other people's work that I think is really cool. Mm-hmm. And explain why I think it's cool and why people should know about it.

Sadie: Yeah.

Dr. Chow: , And that has made LinkedIn so much more fulfilling.

Sadie: Yeah. I love that. Well, thank you so much for joining me. I'm so glad we got to do this. And I know this is gonna help so many people that are struggling with how to approach these hierarchies and relationships, and also how they can support their peers and their network. And so thank you so much for joining me and sharing your insight and expertise.

Yeah, thank you so much for having me on. And thank you, Adam, for putting us together. Yes, absolutely.

If you enjoyed this episode of She Persisted, make sure to leave a review, subscribe, and share with a friend or family member. Follow along at at She Persisted podcast on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube and more for bonus content. Thanks for listening and keep persisting.

© 2020 She Persisted LLC. This podcast is copyrighted subject matter owned by She Persisted LLC and She Persisted LLC reserves all rights in and to the podcast. Any use without She Persisted LLC’s express prior written consent is prohibited.