118. Dr. Sasha Heinz on Improving Your Life with Developmental + Positive Psychology Principles

Oct 20

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Today's guest is Sasha Heinz, PhD, MAPP—a developmental psychologist and life coach who is an expert in positive psychology, lasting behavioral change, and the science of getting unstuck. In her private coaching practice, she teaches clients the tools to change their lives for good. Heinz received her BA from Harvard, her PhD in development psychology from Columbia, and her master’s in applied positive psychology from the University of Pennsylvania, where she also served as a faculty member (go Quakers!!). We discuss how attending therapy can help you with 'adulting', how to use coping skills in daily life, the myths around toxic positivity, how to improve your life using positive psychology, and misconceptions about improving your well-being.

Dr. Heinz's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drsashaheinz/?hl=en

Mentioned In The Episode…

+ Dr. Heinz's website

+ Mind Your Mind

+ Caroline Miller's book

+ Positive Psychotherapy research

+ Lost Connections by Johann Hari

+ Barbara Fredrickson's research

+ Episode with Whitney Goodman

SHOP GUEST RECOMMENDATIONS: https://amzn.to/3A69GOC

Episode Sponsors

🛋This week's episode is sponsored by Teen Counseling. Teen Counseling is an online therapy program with over 14,000 licensed therapists in their network offering support with depression, anxiety, relationships, trauma, and more via text, talk, and video counseling. Head to teencounseling.com/shepersisted to find a therapist today!

About She Persisted (formerly Nevertheless, She Persisted)

After a year and a half of intensive treatment for severe depression and anxiety, 18-year-old Sadie recounts her journey by interviewing family members, professionals, and fellow teens to offer self-improvement tips, DBT education, and personal experiences. She Persisted is the reminder that someone else has been there too and your inspiration to live your life worth living.

a note: this is an automated transcription so please ignore any accidental misspellings!

[00:00:00] Sadie: Welcome to She Persisted. I'm your host, Sadie Sutton, a 19 year old from the Bay Area studying psychology at the University of Penn. She Persisted is the Teen Mental Health Podcast made for teenagers by a teen. In each episode, I'll bring you authentic, accessible, and relatable conversations about every aspect of mental wellness.

[00:00:19] You can expect evidence-based, teen approved resources, coping skills, including lots of D B T insights and education in. Each piece of content you consume, she persisted, Offers you a safe space to feel validated and understood in your struggle, while encouraging you to take ownership of your journey and build your life worth living.

[00:00:37] So let's dive in this week on She persisted.

[00:00:42] Dr. Heinz: And it can start to feel so grim and hopeless when you think, oh my gosh, how do I even get out of this? You know, I can't even. The light. But in working from a more strength based approach, this idea of I'm believing in this possibility for you.

[00:00:56] Like, let's go walk toward it in, small ways every day. Like I'm just marching forward toward a better future, at least where I felt better about myself, at least where I had some. Respect and I, was following through on what I had said I was going to do. That is healing in and of itself.

[00:01:13] Sadie: Hello, hello, and welcome back to another episode of She Persisted. I'm so excited because we are covering two topics that we haven't really discussed on the podcast before, which are developmental psychology and positive psychology with an amazing expert in both fields, Dr. Sasha Hein. So I'm so excited to dive into this conversation.

[00:01:33] If you are not familiar with Dr. Hines, she is a developmental psychologist, life coach, and an expert in psychology and an expert in positive psychology, lasting behavior change, and the science of getting unstuck in her coaching capacity, she teaches clients the tools to change their lives for good, and she also received her BA from Harvard, her PhD in developmental psychology from Columbia and her master's in applied positive Psychology from Penn, Go Quakers.

[00:01:58] I love having Penn professors and Penn graduates on the podcast. And Dr. Heins does both. She served as a faculty member and got her masters here. So excited for you guys to hear this conversation and hear all of her insight on developmental psychology, positive psychology, help you can implement the tools and principles from each and to your lives, some wisdom from her own mental health journey and things that worked for her.

[00:02:22] And things that she found helpful when she went through her own coaching journey, which I loved hearing about. So

[00:02:27] as always, if you like this week's episode, make sure to share it with a friend or family member. Leave a review post about it on social media. All of the things. It really does help support the podcast. And thanks for listening. Let's dive in.

[00:02:42] Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Dr. Hines. I'm so excited to have UMG persisted.

[00:02:47] Dr. Heinz: Hi, Sadie. I'm so psyched to be.

[00:02:50] Sadie: So I would love to hear about your background before we dive into all things, positive psychology, perfectionism, all of the things. But how did you start working in the positive psychology field, which was a very new field when you did your training and then how you became a coach rather than psychotherapist or working in clinical psychology, which is a path that many people take.

[00:03:09] Dr. Heinz: The honest answer is complete and total face plans in my life. Plus dumb luck. Really, honestly. Yeah, that's, that's how it happened. I had no intention of becoming a psychologist. I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life at all. I had, and, and I, you know, I went to Penn for graduate school.

[00:03:29] Mm-hmm. , I know you are at Penn now, so I can imagine, you know Your colleagues and your friends at school Penn is challenging, It's one of the top schools, right? It's hard to get into. Yeah. I imagine like many of you guys, I had you know, a just myopic focus on college. I wanted to get into the best college I could get into and was obsessed with this goal, but the truth was like, beyond getting there, I had no idea what I was actually interested in.

[00:03:56] I was so kind of locked on this goal and I, I was like, I have no idea who I am, what I wanna do, what I'm interested in, what I'm good at. You know, everything was always about an externally oriented goal. I wanted to accomplish something, and so then I would contort myself to accomplish the goal.

[00:04:13] and you learned a lot. Persistence, grit, all these wonderful things. I can grind it out. I can work really hard, that's all awesome. But I didn't really have a relationship with myself. So I got to college and it did not go very well when not my happiest four years of my life. And I left college totally lost and moralized unhappy and.

[00:04:35] And just feeling defeated in so many ways. And bowing never to go back to school. Ever. . Yeah. And then I worked for a few years in New York. Still kind of not really knowing. I worked in production, I worked in a advertising agency. I just did a bunch of different things, but nothing that really felt.

[00:04:50] A calling or something that I really deeply wanted to do. And in this time of sort of feeling lost and struggling and I was struggling with an eating disorder. I'm very open about that. I think not enough women talk about Yeah. Covering from eating disorders, you know, people still talk about it, like a shameful thing.

[00:05:07] It's like, it's what I went through

[00:05:09] Sadie: and it's so common. Like the number of girls that struggle with body image issues and body dysmorphia, like more people should be talking. . Yeah. And

[00:05:16] Dr. Heinz: it was a symptom of a lot of things. And it was just my system kind of giving me a message of, hey, you got to heal some things.

[00:05:23] Like you've gotta pay attention you know, it was like a very, very bright flashing light, an alarm going off. So I was in 12 step program trying to work on the eating disorder and trying to get my life back together, honestly, cuz I was just a mess. I was, you know, bulimic and just trying to get my life back into some.

[00:05:43] Relatively normal life. And I ended up finding this coach. And this was early days. I mean, goodness gracious, I like a dinosaur compared to you guys. But it was, it was 2000 and what too?

[00:05:54] Sadie: That was before I was born . Okay.

[00:05:56] Dr. Heinz: That is so crazy. Yeah, so 2002 life coaching was what, what is this thing?

[00:06:01] Life coaching. It didn't really even exist. No one even knew really what it was. And this woman, her name is Caroline Miller, and she had written, she'd also gone to Harvard. She was an athlete, so was I. All of the, so we had very similar, you know, parallel lives in so many ways. And she had written a book about her recovery from her bili.

[00:06:18] and in it, on the dust jacket cover it said she's a life coach in Bethesda, Maryland. And I was like, What is this thing? Mm-hmm. . So you know, to make a longer story somewhat shorter after hanging up on her the first time I called her back and I was like, I'm ready. I'm so tired of this. I'm really ready to do the work.

[00:06:37] I'm not gonna mess around. I'm not gonna try to control it Whatever you tell me to do, I'll do. I was just so desperate to, to heal and to change and to not be you know, in the throes of an addiction. It just was a horrible way to live. So anyhow, I worked with her and I loved it, and I had seen therapists, but it just, It was the first time, you know what it was for me, it was like in therapy.

[00:06:58] And I have had some fantastic therapists over my lifetime, and I am such an advocate of people working with a skillful therapist to unravel some of their own stuff. It's just so important to have that particular relationship and space. But for me at that time, and the people that I had been working with I didn't really know who to see, so I just sort of went to anyone. There was this aspect of therapy, which was sort of like validating my mess. Yeah. And trust me, I needed it. I needed someone to be like, I know things are hard. I see you, It's okay. But there was this other part of me who was like, I just need help. Like, I need to live a day where I'm not a mess.

[00:07:33] And I'm breaking promises to myself. Every darn day was just awful. And working with Caroline was the first time that she kind of held me to a higher standard. She was like, You're better than this. Yeah, let's do this. Are you in or you out? And I was like, Oh my gosh. Yeah. It reminded me of my sports coaches who sometimes would get a little stern with me, you know?

[00:07:51] Mm-hmm. ,

[00:07:52] Sadie: Yes. Tough love. Come on Sasha.

[00:07:54] Dr. Heinz: Mm-hmm. You can do better than this. You can work a little harder, it wasn't this feeling of being pressured or pushed. It was like someone was actually holding a vision of what was possible for me that I totally could believe in.

[00:08:05] Cuz she believed in it. Yeah. And instead of me focusing on. what wasn't working and how deeply in the pit I was and just, had no idea how to get out of it. She was like, if you just do what I tell you to do and just stay on this protocol with me and I will support you through it.

[00:08:22] I promise you in six months your life will be totally different. And she was right. That was the beginning of me getting really serious. Joined a 12 step program and got a sponsor and simplified my life in many ways and sort of just focused on that. And it really did totally changed my life.

[00:08:37] And just, from working with her, finding her and being in just a complete place of despair that would change my life. And from that moment on, I wanted to be a.

[00:08:46] Sadie: I love it. what you're saying. I remember the exact same experience with more typical psycho talk therapy versus D B T. I remember I had this therapist when I was at boarding school where I'd be like, What do I do?

[00:08:57] And he would be like, What do you think you should do? And I'd like, That's not what you're supposed to say. you're supposed to tell me what to do. How would I know? I'm the one that got me into this mess. Whereas in D B T, they tell you exactly what. All of the time. And they tell you what skill to use to get from point A to point B and what skill to use when you're feeling overwhelmed and what skill to use if you're struggling with a self harm urge or suicidal ideation.

[00:09:19] And I think especially for people that struggle with that emotion regulation and. Know very well that they got themselves into this mess. Having someone that can guide them through things and give them and advice and wisdom is so necessary and so, so, so helpful in getting to the other side.

[00:09:37] Totally.

[00:09:37] Dr. Heinz: I think that what you're saying is interesting and when you were talking, I'm like, I have not thought this before, but what you just said made me think I'm thinking about it now.

[00:09:46] Mm-hmm. from a developmentalist perspective, which I am now a developmental psychologist. Yeah. Interestingly,

[00:09:53] Types of therapy are effective. Yeah. And are necessary. But I think the critical thing is the order of operations. Because you hadn't evolved into a self authored mindset yet, which is a higher order developmental stage. Right. So, a, a therapy that's focused on what do you think and is eliciting from the person, What's your opinion?

[00:10:16] How would you solve this problem? And actually trying to help them be more self authored to orient their self-concept internally. That's good, we wanna get there, but for a lot of people, they haven't mastered the skills. of what we call socialized mindset of just sort of basic how do we get along in society stuff which is a really necessary part of child and adult development.

[00:10:41] Mm-hmm. . And so it makes so much sense to me cuz I think that's exactly where I was too. I'm like, I needed help in emerging adulthood, just adulting. I needed the adulting skills. and how to take care of myself and not treat myself like absolute garbage. And I needed to learn how to do those things.

[00:10:57] So interesting because at that developmental stage, I really did need someone to sort of say, Here's what you are going to do. And give me that confidence that, that she knew to help me. And the same way that for you D B T offer that for you. And I think as I've gotten older, that approach is less appealing because I've evolv.

[00:11:16] You're

[00:11:16] Sadie: like, Don't tell me what to do. I'm an

[00:11:17] Dr. Heinz: adult. Developmentally, I think that our tasks as we. Develop, evolve and grow is to become more self authored and to orient ourselves internally and to not be taking everybody's temperature. Like, how did I do? Was I okay?

[00:11:30] You know, did I do well? Yeah. I do a lot of that work with my clients who are secretly like, kind of feel secretly childish that I can't make a big decision about my life without. 30 people, what they think. And I'm like, Oh, that's a developmental issue.

[00:11:42] They just haven't learned the skill sets yet of that sort of more self-authored mindset. But I, I think that's true and I don't think that many people, therapists are thinking about it from this perspective. Like, what is the treatment that this person needs given where they're at, develop.

[00:11:57] Sadie: Like m a 15 year old, like suicidally depressed, she thought she didn't deserve love. Should not be doing the internal look inside for the therapeutic solutions. Yeah. But yeah and it's definitely something I agree with you now looking in words and really understanding where my values align and what relationships feel.

[00:12:13] Right. And what decisions. Feel like they're my high is good is something now that I really do enjoy and value and is important as you get into that self authored place as you were talking about. But at some points, you're just not there. And it's not effective to be trying to find the answers alone.

[00:12:29] Dr. Heinz: Yeah. You just, you need the guidance. You need the support, you need the guardrails. You need to learn how to practice and so, so much of. Our mental health. And I'm not talking about like mental health as opposed to mental illness. I'm talking just like our thriving as humans at large. And managing our mind is the skill set and nobody talks about it like that.

[00:12:49] We talk about it. Like, you just won the genetic lottery, or you didn't, or you won the trauma lottery, or you didn't like, you didn't have these horrible things happen to you, so you are okay. Or you had amazing parents who maybe were more securely attached and so you have an easier time with your.

[00:13:07] Anxiety and rumination and all those things. and so do we sort of talk about it in this as if it's this, like you either got lucky or you didn't in some capacity. Yeah. It's not true. It really is like anything else, there is a genetic factor, right? This epigenetics, there's a gene in environment interaction.

[00:13:24] Sure. Genetics play a part. Sure. Your environment plays a part as well. They interact together. And you have a lot of autonomy. Yeah. And in the same way that someone who's never run a marathon before can learn how to run a marathon or someone who's never, picked up a tennis rider, can learn how to.

[00:13:42] Swing a four. The same thing is true with our mental fitness, that we can become much more skillful in managing our mind. We can become much more flexible in tolerating our challenging emotions. We can be much more resilient in the face of disappointment and all of this, and we can learn how to deal with.

[00:14:03] All of the resistance to taking action in a more skillful way. We can absolutely learn to do these things. It is not just like you won some lottery

[00:14:12] Sadie: Yeah. What skills that you learned during that initial coaching period with Caroline and then completely turning your life around, pulling yourself out of that rock bottom, do you still utilize today to maintain that mental fitness and progress that you.

[00:14:26] Dr. Heinz: It's so funny. I happen to be going through kind of a tough, you know, just in my own life, like I, I had to make a really hard decision and woo, it was so emotional for me and so hard, and I felt so raw. And I'm married now. I have two kids, and my husband's really supportive of me. I've known him for 20 years, you know?

[00:14:42] Right. Like I met him when I. Still very messy. And you sort of been through this whole journey with me and I was saying him like, gosh, you know, I feel in some way, like just as raw as they did back when I was, graduating from college. Yeah. Just feeling completely unraveled but I have different skills now to deal with it.

[00:14:58] Right. And I've been through that. Like, it doesn't scare me in the same way, but I think one of the things I said to him, I was like, Oh, okay. I know exactly what to do. Go back to basics. Yeah. Let's go back to basics. You know I mean, simple, simple things like taking care of myself. Am I exercising? Am I eating well?

[00:15:13] Am I sleeping, a reasonable amount? Am I prioritizing time to be outside? am I making sure that you know, I am spending time with people that feel really supportive and loving? Am I letting them know kind of where I'm at? Like, hey, feeling a little fragile.

[00:15:27] Sadie: Yeah, like I'm a little

[00:15:29] Dr. Heinz: fragile, like I a little extra tlc.

[00:15:31] Okay, no problem. Like going back to those really basic things that do just make an enormous difference to just feeling better. So at least you feel like you're on terraferma. And then you can weather the storm. You know, It's okay. You can, you can get through it, but I, I do think that that's something I learned.

[00:15:48] You know, with working with Caroline all those years ago was, my life was so chaotic. Any addict, their life is so chaotic. Like it's just such mess. It's just messiness all over the place. And so it was just an exercise of cleaning things up and doing. Like the next right thing, you know, and back to basics.

[00:16:05] Like am I following my food protocol? Am I, going to bed on time? Like it was just that kind of, am I making sure that I'm getting some sunshine and exercise? Like it really was just simplifying things.

[00:16:16] Sadie: I think the biggest difference for me that I've identified is the coping skills that I use now when I'm having a rough day or a rough couple of days or a rough moment, they're either keeping me in the same place mental health wise, or they're making me feel a little bit better.

[00:16:30] Whereas the coping skills I used to use would put me like six steps backwards. It'd be like leaning on a codependent relationship, self-harming suicide attempts. Engaging in suicidal ideation, which just became a more conditioned pattern of coping. Distracting in an extreme way, never processing through an emotion.

[00:16:46] So just either, just staying where you are and not making things worse is a huge thing. Or if you can, engaging in those habits that will make your life better, like getting enough sleep, making sure that you. Fueling your body, making sure you're getting outside, getting exercise. All of those things are simple.

[00:17:02] They are basics, but they're so powerful in maintaining your mental.

[00:17:05] Dr. Heinz: Yeah. It's, so, I think what you said is absolutely right, which is, you forget, but the reality is it's so much about what you don't do. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean, I think when things feel challenging, it often is about the choices that you're making where you're saying like, I'm not going to engage in that thing that I know is adding fuels to the fire.

[00:17:24] Yeah. On some level, even though it may give me momentary relief, I'm choosing not to engage in that. It's almost like it's more about weeding out and pruning out than it is about adding in. Like it's just sticking to these sort of basic things and saying like, Okay, this is not available for me right now.

[00:17:41] It's like setting that

[00:17:41] boundary

[00:17:42] Sadie: for yourself, and it doesn't have to be like, Okay, I'm gonna try a one hour meditation, or I'm going to do a silent retreat like, no need to do that. The basics are so effective and

[00:17:51] Dr. Heinz: possible. Exactly. Right. I mean, it really is that basic. I think that's such a great point.

[00:17:55] People think like, Oh, I need to go to some, I need to go to a yoga retreat or a meditation place. So I, I need to do something drastic. It's like, no. Here are some few things you can do. Don't drink. Stop drinking. Drinking is gonna make your anxiety worse and it's not going to improve things.

[00:18:10] It will give you a momentary feeling of relief and it will exacerbate things the next day or later. Like that's just the way

[00:18:17] Sadie: it works. Anxiety, everyone's talking about it on TikTok. It's a

[00:18:21] Dr. Heinz: thing. Yeah. Like it will just add gasoline into your anxiety fire for sure. You know, it also will disrupt your sleep and things like that.

[00:18:29] So. That whether it's, any kind of substances that give you sort of that momentary relief, I call it emotional noca, like it's just really about staying away from the emotional novo, the things that will numb that, the challenging feelings momentarily, but, End up exacerbating them because they allow you to kick it down the road and avoid it.

[00:18:50] And so the only way through anything is just by committing to it and recognizing like, this is what I'm going through. It's hard. And my only job is to, to like stick with a basic and stay present with us.

[00:19:01] Sadie: Yeah. So talk to me about where positive psychology fits into all of this.

[00:19:05] Was this something that you now look back and are like, I was using these principles, or you then realized how effective it was and started using with your clients after the fact?

[00:19:16] Dr. Heinz: When I went to Penn I wasn't working with clients, I was just purely going to graduate school. Mm-hmm. , you know, to learn.

[00:19:22] But obviously I always say it's me search, right? And I mean, I don't find me a psychologist who's like in this field, but on some level it's not me search. I was. I think that I loved this idea that I didn't have to constantly sort of be rolling around in my own M to get clean. Like this idea that's of sort of psychoanalysis, of like pulling apart all the things and then it just wasn't really working for me.

[00:19:46] And

[00:19:47] Sadie: it's mostly exhausting also to just constantly be in that.

[00:19:50] Dr. Heinz: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And it can start to feel so grim and hopeless when you think, oh my gosh, like how do I even get out of this? You know, I can't even. The light. But in working from a more strength based approach, this idea of I'm believing in this possibility for you.

[00:20:05] Like, let's go walk toward it in, small ways every day. Like I'm just marching forward toward a better future, at least where I felt better about myself, at least where I had some. Respect and I was following through on what I had said I was going to do. That is healing in and of itself.

[00:20:23] Yeah, right. Just the erosion for, especially for people in addiction, like the erosion of their relationship with themselves, because every day they break promises with themselves every damn day. That's all they're doing. . And you know, as you begin to rebuild that sense of trust with yourself, like, okay, it's, you start to like yourself a little bit more, you start to feel a little bit better.

[00:20:43] And what I found for me was that the more the better I felt about how I was showing up every day, the easier it was for me to actually do the healing work I needed to. , cause I had a stronger foundation. So I found that this counterintuitive thing happened, which was the more I focused on what was working and what was right and just taking small actions to, to just feel better, the easier it was for me to sort of, to actually untangle, like, Okay, this is what happened and this is, you know, in some way, like I was wounded or things fell apart and was able to do some of that.

[00:21:18] Like I was able to handle the grief and able to handle my feelings. I was just able to handle them better because I had a stronger foundation. From the start, you know, it that develops. So you know, I just encourage people that this idea that it has to be either one or the other. Like you've gotta pick a lane.

[00:21:36] Like that's complete nonsense. They can do them together. I think the both approaches compliment each other so well.

[00:21:42] Sadie: Two. Today's episode is brought to you by Teen Counseling. If you are looking for support in your mental health journey and aren't sure where to start, teen Counseling is for you. What it is is better, helps branch of therapy specifically for teenagers.

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[00:22:50] Again, that is teen counseling.com/she resisted to find a therapist today.

[00:22:55] What are a couple ways that listeners can implement positive psychology principles in their life? Is it like rewiring a thought pattern? Is it certain behaviors that you're engaging in?

[00:23:05] You talked about working to not break those promises with yourself. How do you recommend that people begin to implement these practices?

[00:23:12] Dr. Heinz: That's a great question. How do we begin to implement these practices? One of the things I think that positive psychology, well positive psychology to me offered a totally different framework of thinking about mental health for me.

[00:23:25] So that I loved, which was like, Oh, we don't actually have to talk about ourselves through the lens of pathology. I can actually have a conversation about growth and development that. A high level conversation about optimal human functioning and growth and development and wellbeing.

[00:23:43] That's outside of the context of, what's not working. Disease disorder, dysfunction, pathology. So that alone was really wonderful. And I think that one of the other things about positive psychology is sort of implicit in the field is this idea that I mean, as a developmental psychologist, I'm looking at, you know, developmental arts, right?

[00:24:01] So, but I think with my positive psychology hat on, I'm looking at the possibility of a positive arc, right? Mm-hmm. Of like a positive pivot. Yeah. And I think that lens of always sort of looking for like, wait, you know, How do we make something better?

[00:24:15] How do we help people thrive? Or how do we help people see things in a way that enhances their meaning or you know their relationships, et cetera, That we're always looking at something through that lens of like, instead of mitigating harm, mitigating weakness, mitigating.

[00:24:30] Some kind of wound. It's actually looking at enhancing strengths. And so that approach alone is just more fun. It is just more fun. It really is. Like, one of the reasons, and there's been some interesting studies that Acacia Parks did she was actually getting her doctorate at.

[00:24:47] Way back when it was like 2005. But they were doing, she and Marty Seligman did a study looking at, it was called something on Positive Psychotherapy, and they had different treatment groups and one of them was a positive psychology intervention treatment group. This was a group of clinically depressed people and.

[00:25:05] They had really good outcomes with the positive psychology intervention and, and one of the hypothesis was, well, it's just more fun and people engage, but they wanted to do it more. Yeah. Right. you're giving someone who feels a sense of hopelessness, a sense of hope. Right. It's like life. And I think that was it for me, this feeling of like, This isn't it?

[00:25:24] Life can, can get so much better. Yeah. And that little flicker of light is what gave me the motivation to go for it. You have to have that. You have to see it. You have to see the possibility. Rick Snyder, the Hope researcher calls this way power, right? You have to see that it's possible for you to overcome these obstacles if you don't think it's possible, why?

[00:25:45] Sadie: A hundred percent. I remember every single time I did D P T did it a lot of times. The last one was when it really stuck. The first thing that they do is ask you about your life worth living. And for me and so many other patients, that's not even something that they vam this idea of living a life where, again, it is worth living where suicide isn't a question where you have things you look forward to, people aren't thinking about that.

[00:26:06] I was. I don't know if you've read Lost Connections by Johan Ha, but he talks about how when people are really depressed, they lose the sense of the future. they did a study where they asked Adolescents that were highly emotionally distressed. One group was individuals that were struggling with anorexia, and one group was individuals that were struggling with depression.

[00:26:23] And they were reading like a comic book, or they were watching a comic and asking like, How does this character feel 10 years from now? And the kids that were struggling with anorexia who were deeply emotionally distressed, were able to say, Oh, well he probably feels this way, or This is the context.

[00:26:38] And the kids that were struggling with depression were not even able to. Explain that or fathom it or try and contemplate what that would be like because they were so focused on like the emotional distress and the present and that sense, the future was just completely gone. And I think that's something that's really true for people that are struggling with depression and anxiety and all these things that you lose that sense of hope, You lose that sense of the future.

[00:26:57] And so in D B T, they always start with that. What is your life worth living? Like, get really detailed about it. What are your relationships? That are in your life? How do you feel in those relationships? What behaviors do you engage in? How do you feel when you wake up in the morning? What does your schedule look like?

[00:27:11] So you have a goal that you're pursuing and you have something that you're working towards when you learn all of these skills and when you do all this work, Because that's not always clear. I think people just think like, Oh, people are aiming to not be depressed or not be anxious, or not be struggling.

[00:27:26] And for me, that wasn't even a goal I thought was possible. I thought that I was meant to be depressed for the rest of my life. And so maybe I was learning these skills, but what was the point? Because there wasn't another side. And so I love that concept of providing that hope and really making that positive trajectory transparent with the client, with the patient because it's something that's so lost and, and forgotten about for so

[00:27:48] Dr. Heinz: many.

[00:27:48] Definitely. And I think the other thing that positive psychology, Has done, which has been really important. And often I think, overlooked is because it gets a lot of flack for sort of, oh, it's happyology, especially in what we call business as usual psychology. And I say that from being on both sides of the aisle,, I wasn't like, this is usual for my doctorate, but I think one of the things that, that positive psychology has, has offered is a much broader, a much richer understanding of what wellbeing actually is.

[00:28:17] It's not just, Oh, I'm happy. It is a, a whole host of things that it's about meaning, it's about the quality of your relationships. It's about Positive affect, but it's not just joy, it's also, interest, curiosity, amusement peace, hope, like there's so many other positive emotions to explore outside of just Feeling happy. Happy. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And understanding the role of setting a goal, achievement, having a dream, taking steps towards that. And then also engagement and flow. And the role of, what we call peak human experience in a life well lived or, you know, someone that self-reports very high and, and life satisfaction is they're, they're deeply engaged in, in flow activities.

[00:28:59] So it's just given us a much. Richer understanding of what wellbeing actually is. And I think that has been enormously helpful in the work I do with my clients because I think that people feel like I just didn't get that happy gene or whatever. It's like, who cares? Yeah. There's so many other avenues towards a meaningful, rich, wonderful, adventurous life.

[00:29:19] And it doesn't necessarily have to do with your own tempera. , you know?

[00:29:24] Sadie: Yeah. I love that. Especially because for so many people the goal is being happy, the cool is not being sad, but if you are so far from that goal and it feels so unattainable to not have that broken down and to having these passions and.

[00:29:38] Feeling like every day you have that level of satisfaction and feeling emotions beyond just joy or quote unquote happiness. I think that is very motivating and gives a lot of hope to get a lot more clear on this abstract thing that is being happy, and it makes it a lot easier, not even easier, but for me, someone who hates uncertainty, it feels a lot better to be able to have these goals that you're working towards rather than this abstract thing being like, I want to engage in hobbies.

[00:30:04] I don't know. Five outta seven days a week, or I wanna communicate and be connected in relationships that make me feel supported every day. Whether that's a text or an email. Those goals feel so much more achievable and attainable than this, like, abstract, Oh, I'm gonna try and be happy.

[00:30:21] Dr. Heinz: exactly. I mean happiness is something that it's sort of a byproduct. It's not, it's not the goal itself, it's the byproduct of the journey. And I, and I think more so, you know, the goal, I love Barbara Fred's research on positive emotions, but, you know, she talks about love as being the master positive emotion and her.

[00:30:36] Understanding and definition of love is that we are experiencing love. Anytime we're sharing a positive emotion with someone, we're experiencing love. So you and I geeking out about this topic, which we love so much, , we're both interested in it, right? We're both deeply engaged in this conversation. We're having a moment of love, like that's what this is.

[00:30:56] My neurons are firing and mirroring yours. Like that's what's happening biologically. Even though we're on Zoom. Same, It's still happening. Yeah, it happen over the phone. I think that really to me is the goal, it's like, can we, can we amplify the amount of love that we experience in our life?

[00:31:11] And I mean that broadly, like sharing an interest, sharing curiosity, sharing a moment of awe like going to a football game and. Whatever, singing together, that's off. Doing the wave , doing the wave. It doesn't have to be done in a religious context. Sharing a moment of joy sharing a moment of comfort, of care, compassion, whatever it is that's experience of love it.

[00:31:32] Love is truly ubiquitous. It's available all over the place for all of us all the time. And When thinking about like, if my goal is to enhance and amplify the amount of love that I'm experiencing in life and feel that my life is meaningful to me. And a part of something bigger than me that my life is valuable to others in some capacity.

[00:31:55] That, my existence for this brief little blip on this planet matters. And then I think like you're on your way to living a pretty amazing life. Yeah. You know, it's really just like the word happiness has sort of made this also murky. I think positive psychology has done us an absolute service and really making this so much more sophisticated the way that we talk about what wellbeing really is.

[00:32:17] You know, what is the good life? How do we understand this? How do we think about it using the scientific method to question it poke. Ask questions, all of the above. But I think it gives you a totally different lens in which to think about this. It's not this sort of very, in some way infantile dichotomy between like Sad or

[00:32:34] Sadie: happy.

[00:32:35] Yeah. Yeah. And it's so much more nuanced. You mentioned happyology and positive psychology obviously has become quite the buzzword and buzz concept. What are some things that you wish people knew that you could debunk these myths that are floating around where you're like, this is just so not what positive psychology is.

[00:32:53] We gotta stop talking about it this way. What are some things that come to mind?

[00:32:56] Dr. Heinz: Oh boy. I think that there's still this lingering it's really interesting why positive psychology has become such a lightning rod. It, it was from the beginning. Yeah. Like the idea that we're studying wellbeing makes people angry.

[00:33:11] Yeah. ,

[00:33:12] Sadie: what you mean, but it's so weird. Yeah.

[00:33:14] Dr. Heinz: I mean, when I was at, seriously, when I was at Columbia, I wrote a paper. . wrote a paper that, by the way, it was a journal article. You know, like it was in one of these like handbooks or whatever. It was a white paper that I had written with a professor at the time and.

[00:33:28] It was on positive psychology and developmental psychology. And I had in my mind been very balanced about the holes in positive psychology from a developmental perspective and what, like what it offers, what it doesn't, what they focus on, what they have and et cetera. So it, to me, it was like fairly measured and balanced.

[00:33:45] However, , I remember my professor was not a fan of the whole positive psychology world. Tell people Soda Boche that I had. I had a degree in positive psychology when I got to Columbia for my doctorate. But and by the way, I love the Penn program is so phenomenal and I've taught there and it's just, it's a really rich and wonderful learning.

[00:34:06] It's one of the richest learning environments I've ever had the fun of being a part of, but, In any case, I wrote this article, and the feedback from my professor was like, you have to stop letting them tell you like what you believe. You need to think for yourself.

[00:34:22] And this way, she was so upset that I, oh my God, didn't eviscerate them and that it wasn't a scathing review of positive psychology and anyway, I ended up removing my name. I, I wrote with her what she wanted and then at the end I said, I'm so sorry, but I'm gonna remove my name from this cuz I don't believe what we're publishing.

[00:34:38] This is not actually what I believe in. And she was so upset about this. And it was such a funny reaction and I felt like that was always kind of there, this feeling of like, you study happiness and that's not important. What's important? Truly, you know, people are suffering, people have real problems and you wanna focus on optimizing someone's wellbeing.

[00:35:00] Like that is frivolous. Like that really was the priority line for sure. Definitely it, you know, in the same way. You know, and I think this makes sense cuz like psychology kind of grew out of, in some way mimicking the medical model. Same idea, right? Like, Curing cancer is more important than you know, helping someone become maybe more fit.

[00:35:19] I, we have this hierarchy of what's more important, right? What's, what is more urgent. And there's valid reasons for that. But it is so fascinating to me how agitated it made people that. People were actually interested in studying what makes life worth living like.

[00:35:35] Yeah, Like, that's offensive. It was so interesting. So why people get so upset. And then I find this other sort of, so the lingering of that, like that's been going on since what, early two thousands. Then I would say the newer version of that is, is like, oh, all this toxic positivity. I, Yeah. Right.

[00:35:54] I take umbrage with. Toxic positivity is not positivity. It's denial.

[00:36:00] Sadie: Yeah, it's invalidation. I did an episode on that with a woman that wrote a book. It was called Toxic Positivity Doc Whitney Goodman. Yeah. And she was like, No, it's, it's not positivity. It's invalidation. It's like an inability to feel these emotions, to process them.

[00:36:15] It's distraction. It's suppressing these emotions. they're two different things.

[00:36:19] Dr. Heinz: Right. And so I haven't heard that term. It's invalidation, but that it's exactly right. It's using the language of positivity. But it's a completely different arena. Yeah, yeah. Like it's maladaptive.

[00:36:31] Coping mechanism. Mm-hmm. , that's what it is. Yeah. So I get asked this a lot about, what's toxic positivity and like, don't you think that we're all obsessed with being positive all the time? I'm like, Oh, seriously? Like, take a look at the landscape.

[00:36:43] You think everyone's obsessed with being positive? Like, I think not. It's completely

[00:36:47] Sadie: the opposite's.

[00:36:47] Dr. Heinz: Yeah. I think not like, no. Most people we have a negativity bias that the way our brains are wired, we attend to, you know, negative emotions are louder and stronger for a good reason.

[00:36:59] We have to offset that negativity bias with a higher ratio of positive emotions. Even people with clinical depression feel more positive affect than negative affect Truly. So, you know, I, I, I think this is like a gross reduction of the actual science and it sort of makes positive psychology.

[00:37:19] Again, it's like trying to put us in this like flimsy, unimportant box and I'm like, I'm sorry, . Yeah. What is more important than actually having a, a high level conversation? What is the good life and

[00:37:34] Sadie: how to get there? Like really breaking it down, making it clear, accessible. This is what

[00:37:38] Dr. Heinz: religious you know, scholars, theologians, philosophers, great thinkers from time in Memorial had been a.

[00:37:45] Asking this question, right? Yeah. I've been, you know, wrestling with this question, so I think it's deeply important and I love that some really brilliant minds are out there and, and engaging in research that, For the first time in, in a long time, and this was a real shift in like the late nineties and the early two thousands where research dollars were actually being put into like, let's study.

[00:38:09] Why do we have positive motions? What's the point? What do they do? Self-report is high in life satisfaction. What are they doing that other people are not? Like, these are critical questions. They're not unimportant, they're deeply important. So there's this sort of hangover of you know, you just wanna focus on, you know, positivity and you don't wanna tend to reality.

[00:38:29] It's like, no, no, no, no. You know, in the immoral words of Scott Peck, mental health is a commitment to reality at all costs. So, yeah. We're, we are beginning with the premise that to be well means that we have to live in reality, and then we're actually attending to the demands of reality. Yeah,

[00:38:47] Sadie: I, I just think about the number of TikTok tos and podcasts and articles I see, like, these successful people are doing this or these top burning people are doing this in their lives.

[00:38:55] And it almost makes me think that like so many people do struggle to reach happiness or feel satisfied or feel successful from a mental health perspective, that it's almost like coming at it from a scientific lens and really breaking down how to get there. People are. No, I should have figured it out.

[00:39:10] Like, no, that can't be right. Because if it was that simple and straightforward, then I would've already been able to do that. And it's so interesting that that's the reaction. I think it

[00:39:18] Dr. Heinz: has something to do with people making the assumption that what people are trying to say is like, I'm doing life better than you.

[00:39:24] Yeah, you know, I'm living more more elevated or more evolved than you are, and that is not the point. In fact, if you actually you know, engage with the literature in positive psychology, one thing that you will know very well is that there are basic biases and heuristics of the brain, and if you don't understand what they.

[00:39:45] You can get yourself in big trouble, right? We have this rule of the brain, you know, this heuristic of hedonic adaptation, which is that the human brain, the human mind will adapt. To the good, the bad, and the ugly, right? It will adapt. We are adaptable, which is awesome. Thank goodness that we are right.

[00:40:04] It's amazing the negative, hard things that we can adapt to and tolerate and, and continue to move forward with. And on the other side of that, we also adapt to things being awesome. Okay, we need to understand this cuz if you don't understand this,

[00:40:21] you will be mystified by the fact that you keep achieving all of these things and yet you're still not happy. Why is that? Oh, because it becomes the new normal. It becomes not exciting anymore. Yeah. Right. So you then you have to have strategies of like, okay, this is the way my brain operates. Like If there is a rule book for how my brain operates, here it is.

[00:40:42] Okay, noted. Now can I, knowing this very important fact about my brain, can I come up with ways to manage this? And one very useful way to manage this is, When I'm feeling down to moralized, defeated whatever, you know what I use. I use my past self. My past self is my absolute best friend because you know what Sasha 10 years ago would say about like the failure I'm feeling today.

[00:41:12] She would be like, Oh my gosh, you're upset about this? Yeah, is amazing. Look what you accomplished. I'm so proud of. Yeah. Truly the me 10 years ago, I'm wearing my pH. My friend made this for me, it says pH done, but I wanna finish my PhD pH and gave it to me. But like, that was a dream 10 years ago. Yeah, right.

[00:41:34] I was like in it. I was in my doctorate, chewing glass. would never end. Right. So my 10 years ago self was like, Woman, your kids are awesome, Who cares that you couldn't figure, you know, you blew the camp registration. You didn't get them into the camp. They wanted to get into which a feeling terrible, whatever.

[00:41:55] Right. Whatever the, the drama of the day, myself 10 years ago is like, Oh, please. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Like what you've done is incredible. So looking at the gain mm-hmm. and using my past self as that reference point of like, she's so. Oh my gosh, my 22 year old self is literally like, she's losing her mind.

[00:42:15] She can't believe what we've been able to do. None of this seemed possible to her. Right. So, but when I'm looking at it from the vantage point of like, I'm now 43 and I'm, and I'm in my 43 year old self, like I can get all in despair about all sorts of stuff. If there

[00:42:28] Sadie: was one thing you wish the general public knew from either your developmental psychology world, positive psychology that you think would be really beneficial to put things in perspective or just kind of understand about how we function that most people aren't aware of, what would it be?

[00:42:43] Dr. Heinz: I think the other one that I wish that everyone really understood, like, I mean, understood to the point where I was like, Yeah, I, I, you know, it was

[00:42:51] Sadie: like taught in kindergarten. Everyone grew up understanding. Yeah. Was

[00:42:54] Dr. Heinz: the way you understood things from day one is what we call the availability heuristic, which means that you are always going to reference yourself to the most proximal example.

[00:43:06] What do I mean by this? I mean that this is like past self versus now. Self, right? You're always going to reference yourself according to your peer group. So as you become more skillful at something, like, let's say, I'm not a musician at all, but let's say you're someone brother field and you're piano and you're a violinist, right?

[00:43:29] And. You know, when you're little and you're in third grade and you're comparing yourself to like the other kids that are in your little teacher's recital group. And then, you know, you get pretty good and you then start playing in a local like children's symphony, and then you move up to chair one and then okay.

[00:43:48] And so on and so forth, or first chair, whatever it's called. Okay. And, and as you become better and better and better, guess what? So do. . Yeah. Because you get picked for some elite thing and so did those other people. So you are no longer comparing yourself to like little Susie who was playing violin with you in third grade, but you are much more skillful at the violin than she is now.

[00:44:08] But you're not comparing yourself to her anymore. You're comparing yourself to the other first chair. Yeah. So as you increased your skill set in anything, your peer group also increases its skill set. That's the way it works. So you're never gonna feel like you've arrived. You're never gonna feel like you're good enough.

[00:44:24] You're never ever going to feel the kind of confidence that you think you will feel if you accomplish something. Wow. Like you were always referencing yourself based on that group. So if we just know this from the beginning, you know, I mean, I remember it's the revealing story. I was at Penn for some meeting.

[00:44:44] This was maybe, five years ago or longer than that. But I had already finished my doctorate and I was at a meeting at Penn and there was like amazing people. Angela Duckworth and Marty Seligman and a number of other incredible scholars.

[00:44:57] And I'm sitting at the table and you know what? I'm feeling like a peanut. Yeah. I feel like a total, Keon compared to these guys. And normally in an environment like that, I would be so jazzed cause I'm learning so much and I mean just listening to what they're working on, it would be so fun.

[00:45:13] Anyway, I came home my shoulders are slumped and my husband's like, What's going on? Why are you so down? You were just with all these amazing people. Yeah. And I was like, I'll never be, as you know, a researcher like Angela and my husband's.

[00:45:26] Oh my gosh. Like seriously. He's like, I think you just finished a doctorate that just like pronounced that you are an expert. I'm like, Yeah, but not like her. Right. So, you know what I mean? And then you sort of have a moment where you're like, Oh my gosh. Should have had a va. Right.

[00:45:39] Like, that's what I'm doing. Yeah. Like I'm making my comparison group insane. The comparison group is like, is Angela

[00:45:45] Sadie: Duckworth ? Right? Like,

[00:45:47] Dr. Heinz: It's so unrealistic and, and she's such a phenomenal human being and it just like really respect her so much. But it just goes to show that, you know, in my fantasy of like, Oh, when you finish your doctorate, you're gonna feel really awesome all the

[00:46:01] Sadie: you're

[00:46:01] graduating with so many people that just finished their doctorates

[00:46:04] Dr. Heinz: as well.

[00:46:04] Correct. That's right. All of a sudden you're like, Nope, this is now new normal. We've reset the baseline. If you are still feeling like, you know, gosh, my comparison group is so competitive, or they're. Amazing, right? Yeah. That's a good thing.

[00:46:19] It means that you're growing and you're you know, becoming more skillful and, and becoming and developing more mastery in whatever arena you're in. And that's a wonderful thing, but you just have to own that. It's not gonna feel physically, it's not gonna emotionally feel as good as you imagined it was going to feel.

[00:46:35] But if you can manage your mind around it and recognize what's happen. You can look at it as a positive thing, like, Oh my God, this is actually pretty exciting. Yeah, yeah. But I wish everyone understood. This is really for all those of you that are listening, if you go look at online and just type silver medal winner faces, it's hilarious.

[00:46:53] But, oh no, , the least happy person on the Olympic podium is always, Silver medalist. Why? Because the bronze medalist, their reference group is the person that got fourth place that isn't on the podium. Yeah. They're like, man,

[00:47:11] Sadie: looking pretty good right now.

[00:47:12] I

[00:47:12] Dr. Heinz: could have gotten no medal and forgotten for the rest of the history, but I'm gonna be in the history books.

[00:47:18] I'm on the podium, like, this is exciting. I want a bronze medal at the Olympics. The silver medalist is not referencing like I beat the bronze medalist. No. They're thinking I missed out on the. Their proximal reference point is the gold medalist. And so if you look at pictures of Olympic podiums, you will see a pattern and it, by and large, the silver medalist is always pissed.

[00:47:43] Sadie: this is gonna be a tick. This, I'm gonna put pictures of all of them over this audio. Okay. I can't wait to look that up. That's so,

[00:47:49] Dr. Heinz: Oh my god. You know, if you're feeling a little bit like that. Right. You know, like it just never feels as good as you think. It's gonna feel like you're right on track.

[00:47:56] Yeah. Nothing's wrong. you know, I wish, I think that's really what I think positive psychology has given. Is it, it's like it's offered A framework for normal developmental human challenges so that we don't have to pathologize this. Like it's not something wrong with you. You don't have some terrible imposter syndrome.

[00:48:13] It's like, no, your brain's operating the way your brain's supposed to operate. I love that. And your job is to develop a little bit of mastery over this crazy toddler.

[00:48:22] Sadie: Amazing. And I, I've never heard that before about the availability heuristic, but it makes so much sense and it's such a powerful thing to remind yourself of and to compare yourself to your previous self and put those things in perspective because it is something that is very easily forgotten.

[00:48:38] Totally. Yeah. Where can people continue to consume your content, connect with you. I know you have a course. Tell listeners where they can consume everything.

[00:48:49] Dr. Heinz: Mm-hmm. . I am on Instagram at Dr. Sasha Hein, so Dr. R s a s h a h e i n z. And on my website the same dr sasha hs.com. My team and I are changing things up, which I'm really excited about.

[00:49:02] We've been doing courses mind your Mind courses and changing Things up. So starting in October, on October 1st, Mind, Your Mind is becoming a monthly or a membership community, which I'm so excited about. So like the sort of concept of. a self development gym, a personal development gym, a place to go to implement the work, to practice it, to learn the skills and, and to practice them in real time.

[00:49:27] To have adult study hall, to have a body double to work with, to a little extra support, to do hard things and to tackle things together so you don't feel so isolated. And then tons of experts that are coming in to do ask me anythings on a variety of topics. So I'm really excited. New endeavor that we're launching.

[00:49:44] It's really just fits what I've always wanted it to be. You know, we, we develop as human beings from cradle to grave, it doesn't end. So, you know, having a community that you can always be a part of and you can make it more intense or less intense you know, as your life can handle at any given time, I think is, is really what it's what I've always wanted to create.

[00:50:04] So I'm so excited about that. And then also asynchronous courses that'll also have, that will be a part of the membership, but you could buy or view or do a la carte as well. So yeah, I'm very excited about it.

[00:50:16] Sadie: Awesome. All of that will be in today's show notes. Thank you so much for joining me.

[00:50:20] This was just such an amazing and insightful conversation that I know's gonna help so many listeners.

[00:50:25] Dr. Heinz: Well, I just wanna applaud you so much. I have so much empathy. I think you're brilliant what you're doing is so not, It's just not easy In college, I could barely talk about anything.

[00:50:38] Yeah. I was so ashamed of all of my. Struggles. And I just think it's, it's such a beautiful thing that you are so open. And I love the way that you talk about it is like it's skill building. Cause you're absolutely right and this is the way we should all be talking about it. There's nothing shameful about learning how to manage your mind.

[00:50:56] Nobody teaches this, you know? Exactly. So I love what you're doing. Keep it up. Thank you.

[00:51:01] Sadie: Love it. Thank you.

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