103. How to Optimize Your Therapy Sessions feat. ShrinkChick's Emmalee Bierly + Jennifer Chaiken

Jun 17

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Today's guests are ShrinkChicks co-hosts and Therapy Group founders Emmalee Bierly, LMFT, and Jennifer Chaiken, LMFT! We dive into how negative therapy experiences led Emalee + Jennifer to become therapists, the reasons college is one of the most challenging seasons for mental health, why you should be therapist-shopping, the biggest determinant of success in therapy, how to optimize your sessions to get the most out of them, debunking therapy myths, what is the family systems modality, and signs therapy may be beneficial for you.

Mentioned In The Episode…

+ ShrinkChicks' Website: https://www.shrinkchicks.com/

+ ShrinkChicks' Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/shrinkchicks/

+ Therapy Group Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thetherapygrp/

SHOP GUEST RECOMMENDATIONS: https://amzn.to/3A69GOC

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🍓This week's episode is brought to you by Sakara. Sakara is a nutrition company that focuses on overall wellness, starting with what you eat. Use code XOSADIE at checkout for 20% off your first order!

About She Persisted (formerly Nevertheless, She Persisted)

After a year and a half of intensive treatment for severe depression and anxiety, 18-year-old Sadie recounts her journey by interviewing family members, professionals, and fellow teens to offer self-improvement tips, DBT education, and personal experiences. She Persisted is the reminder that someone else has been there too and your inspiration to live your life worth living.

a note: this is an automated transcription so please ignore any accidental misspellings!

[00:00:00] Sadie: Welcome to she persisted. I'm your host. Sadie sat in a 19 year old from the bay area, studying psychology at the university of pencils. She processed. It is the teen mental health podcast made for teenagers by a team. In each episode, I'll bring you authentic, accessible, and relatable conversations about every aspect of mental wellness you can expect.

[00:00:20] Evidence-based Tina proved resources, coping skills, including lots of DBT insights and education. Each piece of content you consume, she persisted offers you a safe space to feel validated and understood in your struggle while encouraging you to take ownership of your journey and build your life worth living.

[00:00:37] So let's dive in.

[00:00:41] Hello. Hello, and welcome back to another episode. I am running late for the airport as we are recording this intro. So this is gonna be a short and sweet, but today's guests are the founders of the therapy group and host of the shrink chicks podcast. You should check out both of those amazing content for both. The therapy group is located in Philadelphia. So if you are Philly located, they have a therapy practice with tons of therapists you can work with.

[00:01:05] So link in the show notes, but today's guests are Emily. Beely. T and Jennifer Chaikin, L M F T together, they founded both the therapy group and host the shrink tricks podcast. They both still practices therapists. They have so much wisdom and insight to share about the therapy world, their own experiences, sharing what it's like from the other perspective.

[00:01:25] So this conversation is hilarious. It's amazing. I know you're gonna gain so much insight from it. So while I go to the airport, let's dive in.

[00:01:32] Thank you guys so much for coming on. Sheep resisted. I'm so excited to have you on the show today.

[00:01:40] Emalee: Oh wait. Cause we love a Philly, babe. We love

[00:01:45] Sadie: I'm so excited.

[00:01:46] Jennifer: As soon as you said, Philly, we were, and

[00:01:48] Sadie: that was it. That's all you needed for us. That was

[00:01:53] Jennifer: I'm from Philly. Come on, my

[00:01:54] Emalee: bypass. I live I'm at U Penn. Right. But I will also say this listen, like podcasting. Wasn't a thing when we were in college, but also wouldn't have been, that's probably for the best for us, but also the fact that you're sitting here.

[00:02:09] Unbelievable thing to make it accessible to de-stigmatize therapy. Like we have to also start with like thanking you as well, because like, this is why your generation is the best generation, in my opinion. Because you're just going to do it so much better. And I wish that we had people when I was a freshmen in college, having horrific part of the reason we became therapists is because we had horrific experiences in therapy and we were like, we could do this better.

[00:02:33] And for both of us, a lot of that had to do with.

[00:02:36] Sadie: Okay. I'd love to dive into that

[00:02:38] Jennifer: college. I think college is maybe one of the roughest mental health times. Yeah.

[00:02:44] Sadie: It's really tough. I've done a couple of episodes recently and I think Penn especially doesn't have the best reputation with mental health and going into it.

[00:02:52] Like I. I feel like my mental health has been good, if not better than it's been before. And it's all about like the different boundaries that I set up, the different habits I put in place that allowed me to do that. But if you're going into college with no experience of managing your mental health, not knowing what to expect with the independence, not knowing what your priorities are, it's super overwhelming.

[00:03:12] And it's like a sure-fire way to struggle and feel very overwhelmed because there's so much on your plate.

[00:03:18] Emalee: Absolutely. And just, yeah, just the pressure of college and then also the lack of resources, right? How many people are waiting months on a waiting list to get into a caps program, a counseling program at their school, because there's simply just enough, not enough money across the board, no matter what you're doing, there is not enough money put into mental health.

[00:03:36] And so you're so amazing. You can sit here and be like, oh, here are a, B and C all the things that I did, most people. I prepared for college by like buying the right stuff for my dorm, which is cool to

[00:03:51] to that. But very few of us are thinking about like, okay, how do I like mentally, emotionally, psychologically prepare myself for such a massive life transition. Yeah.

[00:04:02] Jennifer: And I think some of that too comes from the work that you do on yourself before you even get into college. Right. And right now we're seeing such a huge mental health crisis with adolescents.

[00:04:15] You know, we see it in our practice that they're coming in there's and so adolescents are really struggling. And so you're, you know, the fact that you did so much work to, to get yourself. Point really speaks to that. How you're managing it in

[00:04:27] Sadie: college. Yeah. It's funny. Like what I was thinking about moving away and going across the country, I was like, wait, but I've done this before.

[00:04:34] Like I've lived in treatment. Like this is the second time around the block, but that's not the experience for so many teenagers and it's so overwhelming. And so if I can like take the little bits and pieces that I learned and share whatever was helpful, I hope that someone will listen and be able to implement these things because.

[00:04:52] Not enough. People are talking about it. It's not wildly enough discussed. And, and some of these things are really simple. It's like getting enough sleep. It's making sure that your basic needs are met. It's having enough people in your community that are checking in on you. It's making sure you're feeling your emotions and not suppressing them and not overwhelming yourself with commitment.

[00:05:10] So it's small things you just have to be aware of and make sure that you're prioritizing so that you don't become overwhelmed.

[00:05:17] Jennifer: Absolutely. It's the basic

[00:05:19] Sadie: things. Exactly. So I would love to dive into, like, you guys kind of touched on why you became therapist and then that background of your experiences in therapy, because I think it'll also be helpful for listeners to hear like, wait, that was my experience as well.

[00:05:32] Like maybe it doesn't have to be like that. So talk to me about your backgrounds and why you became therapists.

[00:05:38] Emalee: You want me to start? Yes. You go first

[00:05:41] Jennifer: princess. You know, growing up, I would say I was a pretty depressed child into my adolescence. And, and had some, I actually had a really great experience as a child in therapy.

[00:05:54] I had a really wonderful therapist But I remember that the way in which therapy was introduced to me was don't tell anyone about this. You have to go to therapy. Don't talk about this. It was talked about as a punishment. It was talked about as a secret. But that was my first experience in therapy.

[00:06:11] It was also something I very much was a very sensitive child. I'm a sensitive adult. So I've very much gravitated to that role of helping people taking care of people. So it was a natural fit, but then as I got into my adult, As I, you know, when I entered into college, I started to have other therapeutic experiences with therapists that had a little bit of a clinical wall.

[00:06:36] It was very difficult to connect to them. And so that, you know, kind of skewed my view of therapy a bit until and I always, you know, I, I majored in psychology in undergrad, so it was always something I was very interested in. But I was always told, you know, you're not going to be at my, by my parents.

[00:06:54] You're not, you're really not going to be able to make any money as a therapist. So. Listen to them. And I went into marketing and had the worst year of my life right after college and was like, listen, I'm just going to go do what feels right for me. And sometimes you have to make a mistake and do something that you really hate in order for it to drive you into something you really love.

[00:07:17] So I then applied to grad school, met Emily and the rest was history.

[00:07:23] Emalee: Well, and it's funny thing, because for as much as Jen is, we always talk about often often a family system, which is where family systems therapist there is. There's multiple kids. There's an imploder and an Exploder. Jen is an imploder.

[00:07:35] She keeps it inside. She will destroy itself. I am an exploiter. So for me, adolescence was an eating disorder. Self-injurious behavior, a borderline personality disorder, diagnosis, bipolar that, you know, everything because I, my adolescence was this feels off, but I do not keep my stuff inside. I go the other.

[00:07:59] And so I had a similar experience where I had some positive experience and then I had a lot of negative experiences. What are, those is in a residential treatment center. One of those was in a PHP program or partial hospitalization program for people don't know. And then I got to college and every experience I had in college.

[00:08:15] With super negative. Every therapist did not get me. I really, really struggled. And Jen and I are both petty bitches that we were like, we could probably do this better. And so I actually went to school to to be a teacher, did the first half of my student teaching and was like, oh no, I'm not made to be with children.

[00:08:34] This isn't, this is, this should not, not for me. I went, I went into my advisor. I was at Penn state once my advisor. What can I switch into that will not keep me, like, I can't keep staying at this school. So what can I transfer into that? I was still going to graduate, like just once a semester behind. And she said, oh, human development and family studies.

[00:08:53] And I said, well, what the fuck is that? And she said, basically means you go to grad school. I was like, okay, great. I'll find myself somewhere worth time. Perfect. But I was always the person that people wanted. I always liked talking to people and I was very excited. In talking to people specifically about their relationships, especially about their families and really about sex.

[00:09:09] And so, Jen, I both ended up at graduate school at Thomas Jefferson university because they have a sex therapy, specialization, a couples, therapist, specialization. We both knew we wanted to do something along those lines, but even with our specialties, the thing that has come back to us that speaks to our soul over and over and over again is the fact that I believe therapy is for everyone.

[00:09:30] Just not every therapist is from. And so if we can make, there are certain people, probably a lot of people that listen to this podcast that like, maybe you're already cool with going to therapy, but there's a lot of people that are not, there's a lot of people that are still stigmatized. There's little people that still, or they had one really negative experience and they're like, I will never go to therapy again.

[00:09:50] And so I really believe the more we can convince people that. Is the right therapist for you somewhere, even if it wasn't the first one you found that it can be incredibly life-changing.

[00:10:02] Sadie: I think that's so true. And I think it's especially difficult for teens and adolescents, because a lot of the time they're not as involved in the decision-making process.

[00:10:09] Yeah. Their parents have found this person. And they're like this person with like 45 years of experience with adults, this is the one. And you're like, no, or they're like, this is a child therapist. And they're like offering you sticker charts. And you're like, no, Can be difficult to find that match. And it requires a lot more advocating for yourself.

[00:10:31] And especially if you haven't been to therapy before being like, I don't think this is right, that you're like, well, maybe this is just what therapy is. So it can be really difficult to differentiate if it's not. That or if this is just a new experience for

[00:10:43] Emalee: you? Well, I love what you said about someone else picking it out.

[00:10:46] The number of things you have to do when you're finding the right therapist is like, you know, because you can get word of mouth referrals, which are cool too, but just because they were the, and that's why I say like, therapist, Every therapist is for everyone, right? So your best friend can have a therapist they love, and that is not the right match for you.

[00:11:02] So like you do have to do some of that work. The same thing we're talking about is like taking personal radical responsibility. Do I get enough sleep? Do I T and am I taking command of my own life and healing?

[00:11:13] Jennifer: Yeah. And the one thing we know that the most important predictor of therapeutic success is the relationship that you, you build with your therapist.

[00:11:22] And so often people like people stay in romantic relationships that aren't right for them. People stay in therapeutic relationships that maybe aren't right for them. And they don't know that there's anything else. And so we recommend a therapist shop. We recommend to advocate for yourself to make sure that you're finding someone who is the right fit for you.

[00:11:41] And as you were saying with the, the adolescents piece, I think so often because the parents are recommending a therapist, the adolescent already feels like, oh, this therapist is aligned with. Parents. Yeah. Right. And if you're, if you're fighting up against your parents, right. And you want to become your own person, you want to be able to speak your truth.

[00:11:59] When you already feel like the therapist is aligned with your parents, there's already that, you know, breach of trust in the relationship. So I think advocating for yourself as an adolescent, like doing the work, you know, whether it's with your parents or whether it's, it can be really, really helpful in, in choosing the right

[00:12:13] Sadie: therapist.

[00:12:14] Yeah. The best therapist relationship. That I've had as a teenager are the ones where you go in. And the first thing they say is like, okay, yes, your parents are paying me. Like, yes, they helped research, but I'm your therapist. I'm on your side. I'm in your corner. Yes. They may give advice or try and like put things on the agenda, but I'm first and foremost here to help you and just setting.

[00:12:37] Boundary at the beginning and making it very clear that that's kind of how things stand. Just like if you were an adult, like some random friend that was like, I think this is what you should talk about in therapy. You'd be like, okay, thanks. But no same thing for if your parents are like, let's add this to the agenda.

[00:12:51] Like it's not their session most of the time, unless you're doing family therapy, which is a whole other burden to tackle.

[00:12:58] Emalee: What's something that a lot of people don't know is in this obviously depends on state, but like in the state of Pennsylvania at 14 years old, you get to consense your own treatment.

[00:13:06] 14 years old, they can't tell your parents anything without a release of information. Now that varies by state. If you have listeners from a lot of different places, but 14, 14, we still think that our parents take care of everything for us. We're like we think our parents. You do have rights. It's something that we should all think of as we get older and we become parents ourselves, as we should empower our kids to know this information and to respect that privacy and

[00:13:33] Sadie: time it's so true.

[00:13:35] And it definitely makes me think about so many experiences that I had at a therapeutic boarding school that I went to. That was definitely in. Troubled teen industry. And I'm such a big advocate for, for treatment and therapy, because it was so helpful. And there's also this other side of things where I was like, well, that experience was not as helpful and really illuminates, like what was helpful.

[00:13:53] And that advocating for yourself, that privacy, that At 14 consenting to treatment like that, wasn't totally there because your parents were the ones that were watching much more involved. Kids were getting sent to treatment regardless of if they wanted to be there or not. And in the longterm, you just saw that people that were being forced to be there, they weren't dedicated, they weren't involved in the process.

[00:14:16] They would jump through hoops like myself included just to get out and it wasn't really, truly effective or helpful. And seeing long-term results.

[00:14:25] Jennifer: Absolutely.

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[00:15:34] So I would love to hear from you guys, what you like to see in clients. Obviously not like what diagnoses are like what presentations, but what is someone who brings a lot to the table and you're like, they want to be here.

[00:15:48] They're infested. What helps a session run smoothly? At least, especially for people that are like, I've never been to therapy, but I want to try it out and I want to make sure I'm giving it my best shot. What is your guys' recommendations?

[00:16:00] Emalee: Yeah,

[00:16:01] Jennifer: I was just, so I think there's a lot of things that play into that.

[00:16:04] So we're probably just going to go back and forth with this, but because the fact of the matter is everyone comes to therapy at different stages in their readiness, or willingness to do any sort of change or work or dive into trauma. And so I want to say everything with the caveat of, we. At first and foremost, empathize with the fact that everyone comes in at different stages and that's okay.

[00:16:31] Part of our job is meeting the clients where they are. And so, you know, I, I would say we don't necessarily have an expectation on you have to come in at this very specific time in order for us to do good work. I think something that is really helpful is going into therapy and it not. Being the 50 minutes in therapy that you're doing the work that you're also taking.

[00:16:56] What you talk about in therapy, outside of the room. And you're thinking about it, you're processing it. Maybe you're doing some homework that the therapists gave, but I think that that's, that's one thing that's really helpful is to take what you're learning in therapy and bring it outside. Right.

[00:17:11] Because we're only there for 50 minutes if we were there for the entire week, you know, that would be really rough. Right. You don't want us to follow you around.

[00:17:20] Sadie: Done the intensive treatment on the five times a week. It's a lot, it's a lot, a lot.

[00:17:25] Jennifer: So you don't want a therapist 24 7. You want to be able to take the things you learn and really apply them.

[00:17:30] So I would say everyone's unique and what they're bringing in and, and, and I think an important thing to note too, is. We understand that sometimes it might take years to dive into some really tough trauma or some things that you never told anyone about that it's not our expectation that you come in.

[00:17:50] You can, if you feel ready for that. Absolutely. We're right there with you. But. If you're a year, two years into therapy, and you're thinking, I haven't told my therapist this, and I feel like it's too late. It is never too late. It actually happens so often that clients will come in and they, they don't disclose something to you after a year or two years, because sometimes it really takes time to build that trust and build that therapeutic relationship in order to feel safe enough to do so.

[00:18:19] Emalee: I think one of the things that, so I have two main things that come up. So one is how are you spending? Right. So what Jen said is that like 50 minutes once a week, like, realistically, if you did anything one time a week for 50 minutes and then just like cataract it at the rest of the week, like, it wouldn't be that ideal.

[00:18:33] Right. So what. Yes, ed, in those 50 minutes, am I talking about myself for other people? There is this part. A lot of times we end up in therapy because the people in life are, there's like a quote that says like you're in therapy because other people in your life aren't therapy, I think that's true. But if you end up staying the entire time, talking about your roommates, shitty boyfriends, I don't get to hear about you.

[00:18:58] Why it hurts you, why it triggers you lie. It brings up from you, right? So are you bringing about yourself? A lot of us are become resentful of people in our life because we make it all about them. And then we pay money and spend 15 minutes making it about them even more. So how do I bring it back to myself?

[00:19:16] Right? Because the only person I can actually control and change is me. Am I really prioritizing that in those sessions? Additionally. I also think if you have an issue with your therapist, if we say something that hurts you, if we say some minutes off the mark, say it, one of the best things you can do is to use the therapeutic relationship as a model and an experience for other relationships in your life.

[00:19:45] So if you're someone who struggles with conflict, Have a conflict with your therapist. If you're struggle, if you're someone with two struggles with saying no, say no to your therapist, when they need to switch that session time, right? Like what are the things, how am I actually practicing and using the therapeutic relationship to then grow my relationships outside of the.

[00:20:07] Sadie: I think that's so true. And I think like if there's anyone that you want to challenge a relationship dynamic with, it's the person that's spent years in school and does this professionally with people all week. And that's,

[00:20:19] Jennifer: that is, that is exactly the point I was gonna make is that like, we're trained to make sure that we can hold that space for you in whatever, whatever.

[00:20:29] Right. It's we welcome feedback. We welcome you to come in and, and say certain things to us that maybe by, right, like, oh, in the last session you said this thing to me, and it really triggered this for me. Can we talk about that? It's actually so important and kind of essential for us to be able to help you do that work because for you to be able to bring that into therapy and, and work through that in your therapeutic relationship.

[00:20:54] Allows you to take that and bring it into your relationships outside of therapy. So the work that you do sometimes in the session, you can bring outside into your other relationships.

[00:21:04] Emalee: Okay. We make mistakes all the time, right? Like I've had you men. Oh my gosh. I had a client a few months ago who I have worked with this person for years and years and years, we have an amazing relationship.

[00:21:14] I love them dearly. We talk a lot. And she came into a session and she said, oh, I have to bring up this thing. And she said, don't get into advice-giving mode. She said to me, right. And you want to know what I think I would have? Because the thing that she brought up was something we had done on this workout and we had done this thing, but that wasn't where she was at right out.

[00:21:31] And she was able to ask for exactly what she needed and that shouldn't have been her job in the room. But the fact that she was able to do that after all this together. Yeah. I was able to see. You are so right. Let's just hear this today. It's just process. Let's just be quiet around this, right? Like that is powerful because then it also showed her she's allowed to say that to people.

[00:21:54] All over, even if it doesn't go great. Even if people are reactive, once you have it start to happen once what you start to have something, you start to feel empowered. That's mastery. That's how we build self-esteem self-esteem is not built from somebody. Tell you you're pretty and smart and lovely.

[00:22:10] Although there's your lovely things to do. Self-esteem is built through. Mastery keeping promises to yourself and growing yourself in that

[00:22:18] Sadie: way. Yeah. I love that. And I also really like what you guys mentioned about how you don't necessarily need to bring everything on day one. I also think from my own therapy journey at the beginning, I would just go there and I would like at times literally run out the clock.

[00:22:32] My

[00:22:36] Emalee: fucking tablets.

[00:22:37] Sadie: Oh, there some times I would stare at the clock and I would do nothing. And I feel so bad for this thing. I was not the star client. But then no wonder she didn't pick up on like my extreme depression diagnosis, because I would sit there and stare at the ground and do nothing for the whole hour.

[00:22:53] But I've gotten so much. Therapy. If I bring something that I want to talk about in session set, some kind of agenda think about what's been bugging me this week and it doesn't have to be like some deep belief system or trauma that you've experienced. Sometimes I'm like my goal for this week is I want to improve my habits.

[00:23:10] I'm going to try and work out this number of times and I just cannot do it. What do we do to address that? Or like I have these school assignments that I'm really struggling with procrastination. What are the tips there? How can I make sure I get that done? So it's little things. It doesn't have to be super deep, but you're at least getting some need met and something that you're going through addressed.

[00:23:29] And then you leave the session more prepared to navigate

[00:23:32] Jennifer: that. I love that you brought that up because I think there, there is a preconceived notion about what you need to be bringing into therapy and every session can look to. And it's such a journey and such a process, right? I think there's this idea of you're going into therapy.

[00:23:47] Oh, it means you're going to talk about your childhood wounds for like years and years and years. Like yeah. Some sessions are like that, but they don't have to be. And part of the process is going, going deep and then coming back up and going deep and then coming back up, right. There's a level of safety that's created in that.

[00:24:01] So I love that so much because I really think that that dispels the myth of you have to go into every session in a certain way. And that's

[00:24:08] Sadie: not true. What other myths do you guys commonly hear people, whether it's from clients, whether it's people in your community that they have about therapy, about treatment, about mental health, that you're like, that is just so absolutely not true.

[00:24:21] And I wish more people knew this.

[00:24:24] Jennifer: So we we actually just talked about one of these on a podcast. Cause we are, we're a couples therapist to this idea that. If you're going to couples therapy, there might, there must be something really wrong in the relationship where we actually recommend couples therapy at any point in the relationship.

[00:24:43] Yeah, because couples tend to go to couples therapy seven years to. Oh, my

[00:24:49] Sadie: goodness. Wow.

[00:24:51] Jennifer: And they come in and they're already out the door and there's no work that can be done in that point. So in terms of couples therapy, I would say that that's one big one is that I believe that you, cause no one ever taught us how to be in a relationship.

[00:25:05] Right? Like that's and being a relationship is very much. Difficult.

[00:25:09] Sadie: And especially if you're modeling from the relationships you've seen in your life and they're not healthy, or they're not good dynamics, it's like, okay, we need to get some help. Sure.

[00:25:18] Jennifer: That, and there's unfortunately so much shame around that, but it really is.

[00:25:23] We find it so important to just do that. Maintenance, to learn about your partner, to learn about yourself can be so incredibly helpful in your, in your romantic relationships.

[00:25:33] Emalee: I think another really big myth we talked about a lot is that you should leave every therapy session feeling better. There's that's not true, no

[00:25:43] Sadie: therapy.

[00:25:43] And I'm like, yes, a lot

[00:25:44] Emalee: of times it sucks. Right? So like, I think people think like, oh, I should feel so amazing when I walk out the door. Like, no, like we're not giving you, like, we're not giving you. Like an oxycodone and then you're walking out, you feel worse. So I think one thinking that like, everything is going to feel amazing and perfect and wonderful and rose colored glasses and that's toxic positivity, bullshit.

[00:26:07] And I would also say thinking that it's going to, one of the things that makes it difficult, especially in college campuses is sometimes you only get like five to 10 seconds. Yeah.

[00:26:19] Sadie: Yeah. Hey, which is cool.

[00:26:20] Emalee: If you're dealing with one roommate issue and you're like, this is, I just had, we got to do this.

[00:26:24] We're just like talking to this app and maybe you only need five sessions to do that. But for a lot of us, we need more than five to 10 sessions. So having this expectation on how long it will or should take, can sometimes set us up for feeling disappointed or feeling like we're not doing enough and feel like we're failing at therapy.

[00:26:42] Like that's not how this is. It is not one size fits all. It is not one. Perfect. And I also think that all therapists are exactly the same. There's so many different modalities of therapy. You have to find the right one for you, right? Like, so maybe CBT works, but ZBT doesn't or DBT does, but sematic doesn't right.

[00:27:00] And there's so many different types. And I know that it can be really confusing because we don't want, and once again, we don't educate it and I don't know mental health. We're not like here's the different types of therapy we'll say to you're doing that, but we're not doing that right. High school. Like we know when we should be learning like mental health and our taxes, mainly we just assume everything's the same.

[00:27:20] So not all therapy is created equal. Not all therapists are the same, so it's not easy and it's not simple. And it takes time and the expectations can make us feel a lot of disappointment around this experience.

[00:27:33] Jennifer: Another, another one that I want to mention is that, you know, Your therapist very much cares about you and thinks about you outside of your session.

[00:27:45] I think, you know, sometimes, you know, if people think about mental health or you're just doing it for the money, or you're just right, or you have to care about me because I'm paying for you, that is actually so not true. We've so care for our clients. And we think about you outside of, outside of your session, we think about how you're doing.

[00:28:03] We think about what's going on for. And we

[00:28:05] Emalee: still need money to eat. We still need money to eat. You have to, you still have to get paid. Right?

[00:28:12] Jennifer: Both things very much exists. Both things are very can, can exist in the same dialect plane. Exactly. Exactly. So we very, very much care about our client.

[00:28:23] Sadie: I love that.

[00:28:24] So you guys work in family systems. I would love to hear about what that is. We've talked about learning about the different types of therapy. Talk to me about that modality and how that shows up, whether it's like couples therapy with teenagers, with adults, all of that.

[00:28:39] Emalee: So, yeah, so we're trained our licensed marriage and family therapist, which what that actually means is that we are trained in family systems.

[00:28:45] So we. Everything within the context around it, it doesn't mean that we only, we work with a lot of couples and families, but we also work with a lot of individuals. It just means when I work with you as an individual, I'm also thinking about all the different systems you come from. So how work impacts you, how your family of origin impacts you, how intergenerational trauma affects you.

[00:29:04] And so we're just looking at everyone as part, as a larger system for me to understand. How to best help you because we believe relationships really matter. It's incredibly popular in this day and age. Just say like, let's, let's just cut people off. But actually what we try to get people to do is to not cut people off, to have hard.

[00:29:25] Uncomfortable frustrating conversations for growth. And that is what a lot of family systems is. So really looking at the context of the situation that Sadie, everything you've been through in your life also is a product of all the systems. You've been a part of.

[00:29:41] Jennifer: And something, something that can be really helpful with that work is helping you to not recreate patterns in your family systems that maybe were dysfunctional or maybe were not working for you.

[00:29:51] So helping, you know, if we're working with an individual or we're working with a couple of helping you recognize the patterns that. The recreating in your current relationships, you might not even be realizing it or recognizing it. So helping you gain that awareness so that if you're bringing something into your relationships, that was once serving you or was normalized in your families, but is no longer serving you and is hurting you in some way to help you acknowledge that and help you make changes.

[00:30:17] And

[00:30:17] Emalee: one of the things you might, that might happen in the first few sessions with an MFT is we asked you about three generations back. I also want to know about your parents and their story about their grandparents. Right? Because we also believe that like, It's easy to blame the parents, but like, how do we have empathy and understands why people are the way that they are.

[00:30:38] We truly believe everyone has a story. And part of family systems is also narrative therapy, where we believe people have stories that they write and we also get to rewrite them at any time. So what's the story I'm telling you. About who I am was the story I tell myself about my parents was the story my parents have about me.

[00:30:57] And this goes for like, you know, the stories people put onto you as well. People make you out to be a certain way when you have a mental health diagnosis at a young age. And it actually says very little about your future.

[00:31:08] Sadie: Yeah. Yeah, no. And if anything, I found that having had a diagnosis early on, I feel more equipped to navigate any challenges or emotions that arise like.

[00:31:18] Was so sensitive to any like environmental stressor or trigger when I was like a teenager and really, really struggling. And the other day, my friend was like, nothing really phases you like, you're pretty chill. And I was like, that is such a compliment because that's so to not used to be the case, but it's like, I've built up this ability to cope with the things that come at me and know how to navigate the emotions that arise.

[00:31:42] And if anything, that's a huge strength because most people learn that way later on in.

[00:31:47] Jennifer: Oh, yeah. I always tell

[00:31:49] Emalee: everyone it's better to have your breakdown in your teens and your twenties, because if now you come in my office and you have it in your fifties, which is fine too. We're always going to make it work.

[00:31:58] But I like a nice existential breakdown early on. Totally

[00:32:03] Jennifer: child gets to work through it. Cause you really, you know, when you get, when you get through it, you learn a set of coping skills. As you're saying that are so beneficial to you as another.

[00:32:14] Sadie: Also logistically, like I took a semester off of school, did a year and a half of treatment.

[00:32:18] Like, what else are you going to have time for that? And it didn't impact college. I was still able to turn things around, like earlier on guys, it's the move. I promise

[00:32:27] Jennifer: a hundred percent. And you created an incredible mission out of it and an incredible podcasts, which is unbelievable.

[00:32:34] Sadie: Thank you. I appreciate that.

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[00:33:45] So we talked about kind of rewriting narratives, having empathy for people in your. Are there other lessons that you will often that clients are often learning in therapy, that they are applying these insights that they have that they're like, whoa, I've never thought about it that way before that you're often helping people work through.

[00:34:03] I know that's a very vague question

[00:34:06] Emalee: all day, every day, like

[00:34:07] Jennifer: constantly. So, so I think, you know, one of the big things that I just mentioned and to dive into a little deeper is that sometimes we learn ways of surviving as children. That were once so functional for us. Right. So for example, if you know, when you were a child expressing your emotions, wasn't allowed, right?

[00:34:28] So the way in which you dealt with that was to hold it in and not tell anyone how you felt. Not that this is a personal experience at all.

[00:34:35] Sadie: No,

[00:34:36] Jennifer: no

[00:34:36] And so, but as you get older, that is, that is something that helped you survive when you were a child, right? Because expressing your emotions was not going to be helpful for you. As you get, as you turn into an adult and you get into relationships, not expressing your emotions actually ends up hurting you, right? You're not a willing participant in your relationships. If you're not willing to express your emotions, you're not letting anyone else know how you feel. There's no way for anyone to know. So there's something, when you take the things that you learned that helped you survive at one point.

[00:35:08] In your life and you bring them into adulthood and you don't even realize that you're doing it. You don't even realize that these things are hurting you. Really learning how to relinquish that and recognize that you no longer need those coping mechanisms as a way to survive, I think is a big aha moment.

[00:35:25] Sometimes it takes people a while to get there because it's so terrible. To let go of the things that were once so incredibly helpful for

[00:35:32] Sadie: you are surviving. They kept you

[00:35:34] Jennifer: alive. Exactly, exactly. And they kept you connected to your parents, right? So being connected to your parents or your caregivers when you're a child is essential.

[00:35:42] And so as you get older and you recognize, listen, I'm an adult, I'm a fully functioning adult. I can take care of myself. So how do I want to live my life? As opposed to the things that are driving me, the things that were once survival for me and are really bringing me down. Helping me anymore. I think that that's a huge thing that is really helpful.

[00:36:00] And in there. And I think one of

[00:36:03] Emalee: the things we also talk about in regards to that is what the general public calls expectations, we call unconscious contracts, right? So like we go into relationships with conscious unconscious contracts. Those are expectations. They're typically not spoken ones.

[00:36:17] Right. So I have an expectation Jen and I own a business together, right? So if I have an unconscious contract, we, because of that, you should be fully loyal to me and never talk back to me or never have an issue with something I'm saying that's not. We'll or fair or true. Right. But if I haven't unconscious expectation, if I already put us in an unconscious contract, it means that when Jen does something where she says, yeah, I didn't really like that thing you did, or this didn't work for me.

[00:36:45] I think she violated a contract and I see it as a betrayal, even though it wasn't so we can exist together, goes back to the dialectical. Some of the dichotic stuff is that there's so many parts of all of us. And what are the expectations, the unconscious contracts, the things I'm entering into relationships with.

[00:37:04] And maybe I need to take a little bit deeper, look about what I'm thinking other people should be doing. And then also, what am I thinking and expectations I'm putting on myself.

[00:37:13] Sadie: Yeah, that's huge. It's a small reframe, but it can have such a big impact on your relationships on the way you're seeing things.

[00:37:19] So many different implications.

[00:37:20] Jennifer: Absolutely. And those things can come from our families, right? Like expectations that our families passed onto us. They can also come from societal expectations. Right? Like what society tell what's social media telling me I should be doing right now. What point in time am I in my life telling me I should

[00:37:37] Emalee: be in Tulum because everyone seems to be.

[00:37:40] I'm

[00:37:40] Sadie: getting baby by videos all over my feed. And I'm like, I'm 19 in college. What have I done to attract this?

[00:37:50] Emalee: It is the, even the algorithm, right? Like, so like, like on a larger thing that we're being influenced so much.

[00:37:58] Jennifer: It's unbelievable. So that's, those are some other things that we can help you break down.

[00:38:02] Because once again, these are so subconscious to us that we don't even realize that we're functioning in that way. Right. We have this maybe like timeline on our lives that we don't realize is there from society, from our families from, and we're pushing things forward that maybe we don't even know.

[00:38:19] Right. Maybe we haven't even asked ourselves, do I really want this? Or is this something that's aside? I feel like society expects of me.

[00:38:26] Sadie: Are there certain, like, I don't want to use like red flags because it's been good to observe these things, but certain thought patterns or beliefs that are associated with having these expectations that people can be mindful.

[00:38:37] Jennifer: If you hear yourself saying should a lot, right. If you're saying I should do this,

[00:38:43] Emalee: go ahead. Disappointment, resentment. If you feel live disappointment in relationships, a lot of resentment in relationships, then you're doing those shifts, just like Jen said, right. That like, because you're putting all this stuff on other people.

[00:38:54] So if you find like, why am I not happy and right. Like, am I causing my own suffering in some way?

[00:39:02] Jennifer: Yeah, you're shutting all over yourself.

[00:39:05] Sadie: I love it. I love it. No, and I think that's one of the biggest things for me, especially, it was that I did cause a lot of my suffering, I got in my own way a lot. And that takes a lot of undoing.

[00:39:16] It's like belief systems, it's relationships, it's behaviors, it's all of those things. And having that therapeutic relationship to help work through that is huge. Coming full circle, we talked about how therapy is for everyone. Are there certain things that people can be aware of? Tobacco therapy might be helpful, whether it's different relationships or they're struggling with a behavior or a belief or emotions that would clue you in to be like, you know what?

[00:39:40] It could be helpful to get support.

[00:39:43] Emalee: I think the therapy really is helpful for everyone, whether you're having red flags or not. Right. But I think that some of the things is if I ended up disappointed in my relationships, if I end and the present full, if I find myself irritable often if I find that I either lash out or shut down both their emotional reactions, like I think sometimes we think only lashing out is the emotional reaction.

[00:40:04] But also if you shut it down, if I'm an imploder versus Exploder all of those are times to be like, you want to know what. It could be cool to process this out with someone. And it's not the same as talking to your friends. So often people like, oh, but my friends had talked to that's the blind leading the blind.

[00:40:19] Absolutely. Would you go to your friends? would you go to your friend if you had. I guess if you're probably like, I don't know, man, in this day and age, some people are like, but like, would you like, do things like, just seriously think about, do I want what's comfortable or do I want growth because true.

[00:40:43] It's comfortable to go to your friends, but is it giving you a different results or is it still the same thing that keeps happening?

[00:40:49] Jennifer: Yeah, I think rumination too, like being very in your head about certain things can be a really Kind of a big, you know, this might be a good time to go to therapy if you just find yourself, not in the present moment and more so in your head, a lot rethinking things, thinking about things like kind of battling your own mind, that might be a good time to go to therapy.

[00:41:10] Sadie: Yeah. There's another thing that I love to mention that I learned in my normal psychology class, which is that people that present with extreme. Symptoms and presentations, they tend to seek treatment very quickly and they're able to get support. They're able to go into remission. It's not the right word recovery.

[00:41:28] Whatever it is a lot quicker than people that are presenting in a much smaller way. It's not completely derailing their life, but it's having negative impacts and it ends up lasting. Decades and having much more detrimental impacts because they're like, well, I don't need treatment yet. I don't need therapy.

[00:41:45] I don't need support. It's not that bad. And in some ways it becomes so much more severe because it impacts so much more of your life because you haven't gotten that support. That is so

[00:41:55] Emalee: true. Right. And I think a lot of it has to do with, are you high functioning? Right? Like there's people like, you know, you can drink a lot, be a high functioning alcoholic.

[00:42:02] You can have be a high functioning eating disorder. You can have high functioning depression. And when you're still functioning in the socially appropriate mainstream way, which first of all, we have a sixth society. Like they're like obsessed with productivity, like, right. Like. Normal and the society like isn't mean to shit.

[00:42:17] So, right. So like if I'm having all of these things, how high functioning am I? It's so true. People that are coming less and they think like, well, I can get out of bed. I don't have to pressure. That's not what this looks like. And so some of these, and that's also how I think. TV and movie has, has really displayed depression, which is not accurate for the majority of people who would be diagnosed with depression.

[00:42:41] Jennifer: And, and I think, you know, part of this just as we were talking about in couples therapy, like Digg, de-stigmatizing the conversation around just going to a therapist, right. At any point that it doesn't mean you have to be, you know, at this breakdown, right. That. Battling your own mind, if you're struggling in your relationships at any point, it can be helpful to go to therapy.

[00:43:03] Sadie: Yeah. It's such a great resource. And I completely agree with you guys set with what you guys said that therapy is for everyone. And you can find some benefit with some therapists because there are like endless possibilities of what you can work on, what you can dive into. And it's all what you want to bring to the table.

[00:43:19] Like, again, there's no set. This is what you have to focus on. This is what you have to talk about. Like it can be anything and everything that's important to you and that's what makes it so amazing. Absolutely. I love that. Well, thank you guys. So, so much for coming and sitting down for this conversation.

[00:43:35] I know it's going to help so many people. I absolutely loved it. Where can people follow along with your content?

[00:43:42] Jennifer: You can find our podcast at anywhere that you listen to your podcasts called shrink chicks. We also have a therapy practice called the therapy group. We're currently seeing our clinician, we have 30 clinicians.

[00:43:56] They're seeing clients in person in our Westchester and Philadelphia offices, also doing virtual in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Delaware, New York, Massachusetts, Florida in California. So if you're from any of those states, Places. You can, you can fill out a contact form and we can set you up with a therapist.

[00:44:15] And I think that's it. And we got anything else. That's

[00:44:18] Emalee: it. Go to

[00:44:19] Jennifer: therapy, go to self-treat go to therapy. Yes. And Sadie, thank you so much for just creating this platform. I wish I was as confident in myself and just did the amount of work that you did. I

[00:44:33] Sadie: wasn't always like this. It was a lot of work, but it's

[00:44:36] Jennifer: incredible.

[00:44:37] It really is incredible what you're doing. We appreciate you.

[00:44:40] Sadie: I appreciate you guys. And I, I love this conversation.

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